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Is it acceptable to live together when your not married?

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posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
This is ridiculous. So Saint4, you believe that if a man beats and abuses a woman for years and cheats on her and does every nasty thing you can think of to her, she is not allowed to divorce that man because of this made up nonsense in the Bible?? Made up nonsense made up by men of course....to suit themselves and their own agendas....and allow them to abuse women.

This makes sense to you?? Or if you at least feel this woman has a freaking right to divorce this scum bag, you believe she should never be allowed to marry again? What did she do wrong? She is the victim....


If you bothered reading the Book, you'd already know the answer. There is right conduct for a man to follow in a marriage.



The Bible doesn't look at women as victims because according to the Bible women are subserviant and are not equal to men. This is why kings used to have their wives heads chopped off in the dark ages...because men considered themselves better and the BOOK told them it was so. This is why there were witch trials in Salem because women that had their own minds needed to be dealt with....and the BOOK told them it was okay to burn them at the stake.


No it's not. Read the Book. You'll find the opposite is true.



Take your BOOK and throw it in the trash......


Ah, that's why you can't read it? You already threw yours away before you were finished? If you were seriously sincere about reading the whole thing, I'd send you mine.

[edit on 1-9-2006 by saint4God]




posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 06:59 PM
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Ah, that's why you can't read it? You already threw yours away before you were finished? If you were seriously sincere about reading the whole thing, I'd send you mine.



I've read the King James twice.....and as a child we had this massive thick hard covered Bible in the house. It was about 4 inches thick and just plain big. I read that one first.

Just because I've read it...doesn't mean it has to be a guide for how to live my life. It is, again, a text written by men for the benefit of men. I have a loving God in my life and He doesn't give a damn about the Bible because he had NOTHING to do with it!



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 07:14 AM
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If you bothered reading the Book, you'd already know the answer. There is right conduct for a man to follow in a marriage.



What if he doesn't follow that "right conduct?" How is he penalized? All of a sudden divorce becomes okay? Now you're talking double talk. Either it is allowed or it is not.....no inbetweens in the bible....that's the BOOK after all!

So again...according to YOUR book, what happens to a man that doesn't follow that proper conduct??

*waiting*

[edit on 2-9-2006 by Excitable_Boy]



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 07:18 AM
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No it's not. Read the Book. You'll find the opposite is true.


Actually EB was pretty well nailed the Pauline version of the teachings of R Jeshua.

A small ( well maybe not so small) point he seems to have missed, or maybe just
didnt mention is, There is a great difference between what the Rabbi taught and what
paul taught that the Rabbi taught. It was these differences that caused the split
between the Church @ Jerusalem led by James ( and probably the Magdalene) and
the followers of paul and peter which was to become the church of Rome.



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 03:00 PM
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I have been divorced twice and am happily married to my third husband. In the first two instances; I was happy to be not living with them, before marriage, although the second husband, I had to two weeks before we got married, as my parents were preparing to move back to the states, not long after my marriage.

The first marriage was to say the least very unpleasant. It was a very troubled marriage as my husband felt that I was to be his subordinate, and he could do what he desired. I think you can work it out from there.

My second husband after I became ill had an affair and ended up marrying the woman after our divorce.

Having been stung twice; I felt that with my now third husband, and as he was taking on being with a disabled person, it was only fair to have a trial period togethor before marriage. Having lived for 40 years at home with his mother; it was enough for him to adjust living with somebody else let alone be married to them. Although he did the honourable thing and proposed (not properly with a ring)to me, before we lived togethor-I knew his intention was there to do so at some stage. He proposed to me properly with a ring on Valentines Day of '99 and we were married the August, three days after the eclipse.

If the intention of marrying is a possibility; I can't see why not. However, I have a friend who has lived with her partner over 17 years and has always longed to be his proper wife and not just common law. There is no question of the love that they share between them, but some part of her wants to feel like she is more a part of him and him a more a part of her.

I can't really judge others who live togethor; as I had done it myself. I think if there is love and committment already there in the relationship, a trial period is ok, I guess.

Given that many relationships break down to drugs, abuse and violence-I can understand why more and more people choose to live with their partners, so if they find themselves in a situation much like the one that they got out of they have the option to opt out.

I gave my husband the option to opt out, before we made the final committment to marriage, as I didn't want him to feel obligated to me through a forced committment based on morality. I wanted to know that unlike husband number 2 that he could cope being contented being married to somebody disabled, which is a responsibilty that goes deeper than the responsibilty when two healthy people marry.

At the end of the day; it is really between the couple. As I said, circumstances of broken down relationships does make it difficult to know if you can settle down in a steady relationship, and living togethor can only help build the foundations of trust, friendship and love, then should they get married may they know all the added joys of being legally bound togethor, so if one spouse should pass away, the other's family members can't come in and disrupt the home you have made togethor ( which has been known to happen). At the end of the day just make sure you marry for the right reasons and that the love and committment are already in place, because marriage is sacred. Something my first two husbands couldn't get the grip of in our relationship.

My brother and sisters were fortunate to find loving spouses before they got married and didn't live togethor prior to getting married. They have been happily married. So with some people it does work (marriage first) and with others it doesn't.



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
What if he doesn't follow that "right conduct?" How is he penalized? All of a sudden divorce becomes okay? Now you're talking double talk. Either it is allowed or it is not.....no inbetweens in the bible....that's the BOOK after all!

So again...according to YOUR book, what happens to a man that doesn't follow that proper conduct??

*waiting*


Then he is sinning. Penalities are also described in the Book in many, many places. Divorce does not suddenly become okay. I've already quoted and outlined what's said and certainly more is available for those interested in the complete details.

You tackled King James on your first go? Nice work, that's a tough translation. I went with New International Version since it does not have the "thee thou approacheth unto the most high" kind of language. Still, both say the same thing.



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 12:30 PM
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Thanks for your testament rachel. I didn't really want to post after yours because I wanted that to sit out there for a while for folks to read as the most recent, but it appears someone was waiting for me. I can see how it can be a problem for one person to be committed while the other does not appear to be, or does not commit to respecting the other individual as a partner in the relationship. Glad things are working out for you and friends, wishing you all many happy years to come as well.



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 03:14 PM
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Then he is sinning. Penalities are also described in the Book in many, many places. Divorce does not suddenly become okay. I've already quoted and outlined what's said and certainly more is available for those interested in the complete details.



Okay...it's sinning. What does that mean? He can say a few Hail Mary's and Our Father's and then go on beating and cheating on his wife? I'm serious Saint4....what is the penalty?...does he simply tell God he's sorry and then go about his day? And when he is abusive again...he just says he's sorry again??

I'm serious Saint4...instead of dodging....I'd love to hear what you have to say. Thanks!!



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 03:38 PM
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The ways youve been expressing your opinion, Exciteable boy suggest to me that you do not truly understand Christianity. Please do not take that as an insult, but that is the view im getting from this.

He can't just say a few 'Our Father..'s' unless he truly means it and as a result of the shame of him beating his wife, for whatever reason, vows to change his ways with the help of Jesus Christ. Saying 'Our Father...'s' without actually meaning it means absolutely nothing.

It is all down to the wife whether or not she choses to give him a second chance or not. Really, she should try and give it another go if she believes that he has truly changed his ways.

Hope that helps a bit.



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Okay...it's sinning. What does that mean? He can say a few Hail Mary's and Our Father's and then go on beating and cheating on his wife?


Nope. Where in the Bible does it say this?



I'm serious Saint4....what is the penalty?


I'm sure you know already since you've read the Book twice "For the wages of sin is death , but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23



...does he simply tell God he's sorry and then go about his day? And when he is abusive again...he just says he's sorry again??


There's a difference between confession and repentence:

"First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." - Acts 26:20



I'm serious Saint4...instead of dodging....I'd love to hear what you have to say. Thanks!!


Sure. I'll be as candid as possible, even though you ask questions to which you already know the answers.



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 03:59 PM
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I'm sure you know already since you've read the Book twice "For the wages of sin is death , but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23



Saint4....I understand that in your belief....he will go to hell or whatever. He won't be "saved." But what I want to know is what is the penalty while he is still alive? According to you people shouldn't get divorced. So I want to know since you feel no matter how bad a woman is treated, divorce is not the answer.....and you feel that the man WILL pay a penalty for abusing his wife....what is that penalty while he is alive? Because waiting until he is dead is probably not a viable plan for most abused women as they will probably end up dead at the hands of the man before he dies!

Thanks for your help and looking forward to your response!!




The ways youve been expressing your opinion, Exciteable boy suggest to me that you do not truly understand Christianity. Please do not take that as an insult, but that is the view im getting from this.



Out of The Box.....no insult taken. I am not a Christian.....maybe that will help you understand me and my confusion with Saint4's beliefs.....

[edit on 5-9-2006 by Excitable_Boy]



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 04:04 PM
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Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Saint4....I understand that in your belief....he will go to hell or whatever. He won't be "saved." But what I want to know is what is the penalty while he is still alive?


Eternal punishment is not enough, you want him beaten and tortured while he's still alive as well?


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
According to you people


Tell me more about "my people", I'd be interested in hearing about the culture I did not realize I was a part of.



shouldn't get divorced. So I want to know since you feel no matter how bad a woman is treated, divorce is not the answer.....and you feel that the man WILL pay a penalty for abusing his wife....what is that penalty while he is alive? Because waiting until he is dead is probably not a viable plan for most abused women as they will probably end up dead at the hands of the man before he dies!


I never said "no matter how bad a woman is treated..." She should no doubt get out of the house if she's getting beaten. And, it has happened to a number of people in my family.



Thanks for your help and looking forward to your response!!


Glad I can try to help.

[edit on 5-9-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 04:30 PM
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Eternal punishment is not enough, you want him beaten and tortured while he's still alive as well?


Eternal punishment doesn't heal the REAL wounds suffered by an abused woman at the hands of a lunatic. I think the man should obviously go to prison. My question to you is: In this scenario, is it OKAY according to YOUR book for her to get a divorce? And if so, according to YOUR book is she some kind of scum bag for getting divorced? Or, as an abused woman, is she ALLOWED by your BOOK to get married again?

You know what I've been asking...you just continue to dodge and not truly answer the question....because to answer the question you have to become human instead of looking for the answer in your BOOK!

Next...tell you about "your people?" You misread what I wrote...let's try again:



According to you people shouldn't get divorced.


I guess without the comma...it confused you. Sorry...It reads like this: "According to you, people shouldn't get divorced." Is that better? I didn't say "you people." I think you know this....but because you have no argument you are trying to distract from the question you keep dodging.



I never said "no matter how bad a woman is treated..." She should no doubt get out of the house if she's getting beaten. And, it has happened to a number of people in my family.



Okay...so, she should get out of the house. That's it? She should still stay married to him? and...he shouldn't be punished? He should just be given eternal damnation? What about his next victim? and the next one? and the next one?

You say it's happened a number of times in your family alone. Imagine how much it happens every day ALL OVER THE WORLD. With people like you preaching "no divorce" you are:

A. Telling men it's okay to abuse their wives/girlfirends/significant others and
B. Telling women that they are less than human and should take the abuse


[edit on 5-9-2006 by Excitable_Boy]



posted on Sep, 6 2006 @ 07:22 AM
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Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Eternal punishment doesn't heal the REAL wounds suffered by an abused woman at the hands of a lunatic.


Gotcha. And folks say Christians are cruel for believing in eternal damnation. Moving on...


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
I think the man should obviously go to prison.


It is assault and should be treated as any other assailant.


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
My question to you is: In this scenario, is it OKAY according to YOUR book for her to get a divorce?


Divorce is not a physical removal of one person from another. It is the spiritual removal of one person from another. No, spiritually there is no need for separation. People always want their "do overs" and "try agains" because people change or because they've married in haste. If they understood from the beginning that there are no 2nd chances for spiritual marriage, perhaps they'd take things a little slower, no?


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
In this scenario, is it OKAY according to YOUR book for her to get a divorce?


I believe she needs to get herself (and children if there are some) out of that home.


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
And if so, according to YOUR book is she some kind of scum bag for getting divorced?


I don't know how you can equate sinner with "scum bag". In that case, we're all scum bags "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:23


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Or, as an abused woman, is she ALLOWED by your BOOK to get married again?


Already answered this question. Why do you believe only women can be abused?


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
You know what I've been asking...you just continue to dodge and not truly answer the question....because to answer the question you have to become human instead of looking for the answer in your BOOK!


It's not a "one or the other" situation. The Book is applicable to being human moreso than our selfish desires.


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
I guess without the comma...it confused you. Sorry...It reads like this: "According to you, people shouldn't get divorced." Is that better? I didn't say "you people." I think you know this....but because you have no argument you are trying to distract from the question you keep dodging.


Gotcha. Not looking for an attack and thanks for clarifying.


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Okay...so, she should get out of the house.


I think that would be the right thing to do.


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
That's it? She should still stay married to him?


What motivation does she have to divorce him? Or in the reverse scenario of a woman beating a man and abusing him what motivation would he have to divorce her?


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
and...he shouldn't be punished?


As any other assailant, equality under the law. At least, that's how this country was set up.


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
He should just be given eternal damnation? What about his next victim? and the next one? and the next one?


Check this out, ready? If he's still married, this abusive man, can he marry again?


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
You say it's happened a number of times in your family alone. Imagine how much it happens every day ALL OVER THE WORLD.


Exactly. This is a very personal topic for me. It happens everywhere including to those in my family.


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
With people like you preaching "no divorce" you are:

A. Telling men it's okay to abuse their wives/girlfirends/significant others


This is a false statement.


Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
and
B. Telling women that they are less than human and should take the abuse


This too is false. It may be well to not make false assumptions based on unrelated principles.

[edit on 6-9-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 6 2006 @ 11:07 AM
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Divorce is not a physical removal of one person from another. It is the spiritual removal of one person from another. No, spiritually there is no need for separation. People always want their "do overs" and "try agains" because people change or because they've married in haste. If they understood from the beginning that there are no 2nd chances for spiritual marriage, perhaps they'd take things a little slower, no?



No need for separation? Really? Why not? So...if her man is perfect until after the marriage and then he beats her, repeatedly, rapes her, cheats on her etc.....she is stuck...because your BOOK doesn't allowed what you call "do overs?" That is ridiculous.......



I believe she needs to get herself (and children if there are some) out of that home.



Again....that's it? That solves the problem? Come join us in the real world Saint4....

So she should leave but stay married to the scum bag forever? That makes sense to you? Again....ridiculous!!

[edit on 6-9-2006 by Excitable_Boy]



posted on Sep, 6 2006 @ 11:12 AM
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You say Marriage is a spiritual binding.

Well, if she has so much abuse that she's force to flee from him forever, that spiritual binding has been broken, they are no longer together, they are torn away, the bind unrepairable. Therefore, the dissolving of said marriage is no longer a spiritual one, but a beauricratical one. After all, the spiritual bindings of marriage has been broken, all that remains is the earthly census status of marriage.

Therefore its okay for them to divorce.



posted on Sep, 6 2006 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
No need for separation? Really? Why not? So...if her man is perfect until after the marriage and then he beats her, repeatedly, rapes her, cheats on her etc.....she is stuck...because your BOOK doesn't allowed what you call "do overs?" That is ridiculous.......


I thought we'd agreed she should get out of the house. As far as repeatedly, I don't think she should hang around after the first time unless some major overhauling takes place. As far as your opinions on the matter, you're certainly entitled to them.



Again....that's it? That solves the problem? Come join us in the real world Saint4....


As I've said, I've had to deal with this in my own family. I live the real world every day.



So she should leave but stay married to the scum bag forever? That makes sense to you? Again....ridiculous!!


You didn't answer my question. Why? Then I'll answer yours. The question was:

"If he's still married, this abusive man, can he marry again?"

[edit on 6-9-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 6 2006 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by WolfofWar
You say Marriage is a spiritual binding.

Well, if she has so much abuse that she's force to flee from him forever, that spiritual binding has been broken, they are no longer together, they are torn away, the bind unrepairable. Therefore, the dissolving of said marriage is no longer a spiritual one, but a beauricratical one. After all, the spiritual bindings of marriage has been broken, all that remains is the earthly census status of marriage.

Therefore its okay for them to divorce.


I'm familiar with this line of thinking and know of even some churches that ascribe to that, however, the above says something different than this:

"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." - Mark 10:7

According to this, neither man nor woman has the authority to make this decision. It would then take God to separate them. Then, it becomes a beauricratical issue.

[edit on 6-9-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 6 2006 @ 05:11 PM
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"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." - Mark 10:7

According to this, neither man nor woman has the authority to make this decision. It would then take God to separate them. Then, it becomes a beauricratical issue.




So...God can perform divorces? Really? How? By divine intervention? And....if God doesn't believe in divorce, why would he perform divorces? A little double-talk going on here......

And this is amusing...if God separates a couple, it's a beaurocratical issue? Really? So God is now a beaurocrat? When did this happen? I missed that part of the Bible......

Here's a tidbit for you...and where was God in this:



Russian pop star speaks up for battered women

Not even fame and fortune as one of Russia’s leading pop stars could save Valeria from her husband’s fists. Jeremy Page in Moscow reports in Times Online. For ten years she endured his beatings, threats and rages, assuming, like so many abused women, that it was somehow her fault.

“I was quiet about it for ten years because had I opened my mouth, it would have been much worse,” Valeria said.

On average one woman is killed every hour in Russia by a partner, former partner or relative, according to a report released by Amnesty International yesterday. The report estimates that 70 per cent of married women in Russia have been subjected to violence by their husband.

source: blogs.amnestyusa.org...


There's about 140 million people in Russia. 70% of married women in Russia have dealt with violence by their husbands. One woman is killed every hour by a partner, former partner or relative. Why didn't God divorce any of these women before they were murdered? Were they of the wrong religion? Were they supposed to beg God for mercy just before the final blow that took their lives? Seriously....what's your answer?

If God can divorce people, why doesn't he? I haven't heard of one case where God has divorced a couple. Maybe somebody can help me out here because I just did a Google search and couldn't find a single couple that was divorced by God.

"For ten years she endured his beatings, threats and rages, assuming, like so many abused women, that it was somehow her fault." Many Christians make women feel exactly like this woman felt!!...because no divorces allowed...so PUT UP WITH IT!!...if you divorce it's a sin according to the BACs and if you sin you don't get your place in Heaven so take the abuse.....you will end up in Heaven once you are dead and the beatings stop.

Do I have it right Saint4??



posted on Sep, 6 2006 @ 11:38 PM
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Is it acceptable to live together when your not married?


In GOD's idea of paradise, in the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were never formally married, but they lived together.



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