When I see more than one moon I leave the pub and go home.

For those without faith, Icke and the Bible do have one thing in common:

Even if there is no God, and even if there are no reptilians, it doesn't stop you from gaining wisdom from the books.

Even works of fiction contain truth.


For those who believe, Icke and the Bible do have one thing in common:
Even if there is a God, and even if there are reptilians, you may be closing your mind off to other truths.

Books aren't events. They are interpretations of events.

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Originally posted by theron dunn
Only ONE?? Sheesh, david MADE the claim on national television... I guess if a man claims to be GOD that its really okay if the REST of what he writes is tripe... I mean, you follow the rantings of Charlie Manson too? After all, he claimed to be god, and only participated in the KILLING of several people...

Can you not read Theron Dumb? I said there is a big difference between claiming to be the son of God or A god itslef and then claiming to be a reborn Messiah of Jesus. Do I believe a lot of what he says, no, nor do I disbelieve. I try to keep a fairly open mind to an unlimited number of possibilities.

Even though I don't know much about Charlie Manson, what if I did believe in it and allow myself to be overcome by LSD? So what, who are you to question me personally?

All you Masons can go back to wiping each other's now.

[edit on 29-10-2004 by Jamuhn]

Actually, Jamuhn, it spelled, DUNN, but I can see where that might confuse someone like you... you might try to focus on the issue here, instead of making a complete horses patootie out of yourself...

As for who am I to question you personally??? YOU posted on the subject, or sort of, and tried to defend a total loon by attacking masons... you know, when you focus on the issue, and provide facts, it makes this whole exercise so much more useful... I mean, the STATED PURPOSE OF THIS FORUM IS TO DENY IGNORANCE, not to PROMOTE it.

If you want to promote ignorance, go post on FW or some other David Icke hate site...

Personally, I fing ANYONE that claims to be god, a god, or the son of god to be loony, and anyone that rants about alien lizard men secretly running ANYTHING to completely disqualify them from any kind of intelligent discussion, except as comedic relief...

You want to be taken seriously? Focus on the issue and stop wasting EVERYONE's time with pathetic attacks on me and masonry.

DENY IGNORANCE... or go home.

What is a fact dumb? It is an assumption of the mind. I am not trying to convince anyone on anything. It's not like I am trying to protect my way of life in a secret society because that is the only thing I know in my life. I mean, your life would totally crumble without Masonry. Oh, oh, yes, back on the subject.

Well, I've come to realize that ignorance is subjective. Ignorace seems to be defined on multiple levels. There are those that just choose to ignore other beliefs when basing an assumption/statement/fact/whatever else. Then, there are those who are completely devoid of any knowledge on where that statement/etc. is coming from and would rather spin it to their advantage.

And the fact is Theron, I don't really care if you take me seriously, nor anyone on the board for this matter. The fact that you are taking yourself so seriously says something about you. I regret lashing out at you because I forgot hey, this is a computer after all. I'm talking to a fictional person that I will never look back on or give a thought to in my life otherwise.

I have my opinions about you to, but what does it matter to have an opinion on a small ant? You are nothing, and you are certainly not important. And neither am I, and I have realized that. You can run around all you want claiming this and that, that your life is so worthy and others aren't, but the fact is Theron, YOU DIE. You eventually will die and what will all this discourse between you and me mean, absolutely nothing. You think I will look back after your death and care or even remember this conversation?

So why am I and you wasting time on this? You don't believe because that is your reality and what you must believe as part of your masonic religion.

If you think I am ignorant so be it. I've found nothing from you but harassment the entire time I've been on this board. If that is the way you find enjoyment, then I ask that you leave me out of it. It's easy to be a troll on this board and backlash at everything that you don't like or are afraid of. But Theron, I respect people's opinions even if I don't like them. And I ask that you do the same, even if you are afraid of what that idea, if true, would mean to your life.

Hmmm, sorry you feel that way, really.

Casual insults, or pathetic attempts at them, prove nothing, and certainly do not support the position you are trying to put forth. Whether you care or not about my opinion is also irrelevant, as you note, but, and here is the big but, YOU DIDN'T CARE SO MUCH YOU WROTE, WHAT THREE HUNDRED WORDS ABOUT HOW MUCH YOU DIDN'T CARE... who, exactly, are you trying to fool?

As for masonry, I find it to be a wonderful and honorable institution. You don't. That's fine, but you don't find me all over the internet slandering folks because of their beliefs. I don't even waste time on FW or any other hate site... but YOU seem to take a lot of time slandering masons, but without any attempt at justification.

Folks that attack masonry without even offering a veneer of justification remind me of the KKK and the neonazis and other hate groups, that simply post: "XYZ is evil and subhuman and below contempt yadda yadda yadda yadda". Your rants against masonry have equal or lesser value, but you will certainly not understand what I am writing.

As for attacking you, I guess when you think you are right, someone getting in your "face" with intellectual and factual challenges might be a little overwhelming... some folks just aren't used to being challenged when they are wrong. Did you seriously think that you could just post hate speech and bigotry against masons without someone calling you on it?

As for masonic religion, you know, or should know by now, that masonry is NOT a religion. Its kind of funny, that folks like you insist that masonry is a religion, but NO MASON THINKS SO. You casually toss out that nonsense, and it really is nonsensical, because those of us that ARE masons don't treat masonry as a religion, and since we ARE masons, and you are not even close to being a mason, it seems that OUR opinion is the definitive word on it.

You can't simply redefine something... all evidence being to the contrary shows that your claim and throw away line was not intended to be taken seriously, but to attempt to irritate me... and that is, to say the least, childish and pathetic... and certainly won't work.

Now, if you want to act like an adult for a change, feel free to engage is reasoned discourse, and lets deny ignorance together. But if all you want to do is flame, then really, go home... adults here want to talk about real issues, and I am sure there is a child's table somewhere (perhaps the aforementioned FW?) where you can go and have your little temper tantrums and call names... a place where it is not only acceptable, but expected.

that is not what this forum seems to be designed for...

So, if you have a question, or want to make a point, and are willing to back it up with reasoned rational arguments, please do so.

Otherwise, please excuse yourself and go to the children's table.

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by WeBDeviL
So, in conclusion, to believe the Bible means that you can STILL believe in science, history, etc.
-wD

Now which book in school claimed the universe was created in six days?

was it the same one that said the entire universe was only 6000 years old?

How about stoping the sun in the sky? Raising the dead? Coming back from the dead?

No you cant

Oh boy.



Here, let me quote Amir Fatir

The Bible, Quran, Upanishads, Bhagavad-Gita, Pert em Hru, Tao-te Ching and many other scriptures contain invaluable knowledge. Once we know that they were written in types of code language for initiates then the process of decrypting them becomes possible.

Those books can then assist us in developing the psychic abilities, spiritual powers and divine cultivation that the heroes of antiquity exhibited. Generation of "miracles" can become an everyday part of each of our lives.

The ancient adepts used metaphors within metaphors within metaphors. It is little wonder that concretized Western minds are often lost when it comes to understanding the ancient wisdom and, in utter frustration, discount it as childish nonsense.

Starting to make sense???

Originally posted by Tamahu
Starting to make sense???

I would go along with this but 99% of the followers say it is the WORD OF GOD, not metaphors.

is Icke talking in metaphors also?

I have asked in two threads if anyone believed him and NO ONE has come forward and said yes I believe that the world is and has been ruled by a secret group of alien shapeshifting satanic baby eating reptillion masons.

Not one

And the bottom line is that is EXACTLY what he says.

Originally posted by Amuk
...cke says> the world is and has been ruled by a secret group of alien shapeshifting satanic baby eating reptillion masons.

And the bottom line is that is EXACTLY what he says.

No one has to believe it for it to be true.

Originally posted by quango

Originally posted by Amuk
...cke says> the world is and has been ruled by a secret group of alien shapeshifting satanic baby eating reptillion masons.

And the bottom line is that is EXACTLY what he says.

No one has to believe it for it to be true.

Meaning what? That you believe we are being controlled by Masonic Lizard men that eat babies and worship a goat??

Originally posted by LTD602
Meaning what? That you believe we are being controlled by Masonic Lizard men that eat babies and worship a goat??

Or that you are a Mason that believes in God....

Or that you are a Mason that believes in God....

A far more reasonable assessment.

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Originally posted by LTD602
Meaning what? That you believe we are being controlled by Masonic Lizard men that eat babies and worship a goat??

Or that you are a Mason that believes in God....

Nice, Jahmun. Do you have ANYTHING useful to write, or are simply satisfied with attack?

To BE a mason, you must profess and have a belief in a supreme being, which is more than we ask of you, who seem to have nothing better to do than attack good men.

It is MUCH easier to believe that masons believe in g-d, since everyone knows, we have knelt at an altar, before a Volume of Sacred Law, and sworn the same...

Originally posted by quango
No one has to believe it for it to be true.

No matter how many are conned into believing it wont make it true either....LOL

So are you saying that you believe it? The whole story?

[edit on 29-10-2004 by Amuk]

Originally posted by Amuk
No matter how many are conned into believing it wont make it true either....LOL

So are you saying that you believe it? The whole story?

So what if someone doesn't believe the Reptilian theory? That shouldn't dispel the rest of what Icke says even if it requires closer examination. The Reptilian theory may be wrong in itself, but there are other ideas/philosophy written of by Icke that should be taken in consideration seperately. Take the Bible for example, there are a lot of Christians that don't sacrifice animals everyday, yet they still believe in a lot of the Bible.

And what about the man himself? Even if some think he is a little bit cooky, does that mean all he writes is nonsense. The writer of Radiohead songs is considered legally insane by some pyschiatrists, but does that mean that none of the lyrics should be listened to?

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Originally posted by Amuk
No matter how many are conned into believing it wont make it true either....LOL

So are you saying that you believe it? The whole story?

So what if someone doesn't believe the Reptilian theory? That shouldn't dispel the rest of what Icke says even if it requires closer examination. The Reptilian theory may be wrong in itself, but there are other ideas/philosophy written of by Icke that should be taken in consideration seperately. Take the Bible for example, there are a lot of Christians that don't sacrifice animals everyday, yet they still believe in a lot of the Bible.

And what about the man himself? Even if some think he is a little bit cooky, does that mean all he writes is nonsense. The writer of Radiohead songs is considered legally insane by some pyschiatrists, but does that mean that none of the lyrics should be listened to?

You are right, but it is very difficult to get past the whole reptile matrix child eating mason secret government thing to anything else. Good analogy about the bible though, but I imagine it will anger a lot of fundy christians to see Icke's writings compared to the bible.

Icke is a brilliant man, to be sure, but how do we reconcile the lizard/matrix thing with the rest of what he writes? The one so totally overshadows the other...

And, of course, as a Mason, I will be honest that his unfounded attacks on masonry are highly offensive. So in my book, he already has two stikes against him, the whole Lizard/Matrix thing and his antimasonic rhetoric... it is difficult for me to see love and hope and beauty within the writings of a man I see as a flaming bigot... and a loon.

Can you help me see past these issues to anything valuable?

Originally posted by Jamuhn
So what if someone doesn't believe the Reptilian theory? That shouldn't dispel the rest of what Icke says even if it requires closer examination. The Reptilian theory may be wrong in itself, but there are other ideas/philosophy written of by Icke that should be taken in consideration seperately.

Isnt the reptilian theory the cornerstone of his entire beliefs?

Again it would be like saying I dont believe in God but I believe the Bible. I dont say not to read his books hell I dont even say not to believe him.

What I do say is he provides not ONE shred of proof to back what you must admit is one hell of a wild story.

Also again to believe what he says you have to throw out EVERYTHING we have learned.

Why do we here take apart everything from the moon landing to Noahs ark looking for ONE DETAIL that we can prove to be false but take this crazy story as the "true" story of our entire universe without batting an eye.

OK get rid of the Lizards, you are still left with we are living in a giant holograpic matrix? give me a break

I am not closed minded I believe in UFOs and I think the Jury is still out on Ghosts but there is one thing being open minded and another being empty headed no disrespect intended

Like I said his story is like the Bible you take it all as truth or the whole thing falls apart because the parts are built on each other.

It would be like taking the foundation out from under a house

Well, the way I like to think of the world is in terms of probability. Even something such as the world being 6000 years old, to me, has a low probability of being true, but this doesn't mean it is false. But, for the purpose of discussion, I say it is false. The Reptilian theory is a wild exaggeration of events that occur in our lives. This theory may lack in factual basis, but from a philosophical point of view it is very reconcilable.

We all have an R-complex in our brains that produces certain emotions and desires. Icke believes that those in power are guided by this part of the brain and have a desire to subjugate other humans. Icke essentially is speaking of the inherent dangers of power and the effect it produces in people via the R- (Reptilian)complex of the brain. Now, he takes this to the next level by claiming a physical manifestation, but the philosophy of it all remains the same.

As well, there is the idea of personal responsibility and the connection of the mind/body. However much of an effect it may have, we still have control of our lives. And together we have a collective control on our world. Once again, Icke takes these ideas a little further in stating that we have absolute control over our reality. People are sometimes defiant to change and believe that what they are at present is what they will always be. Icke's underlying philosophy is that you can change at any moment you want. The mind/body connection has to do a lot with your state of mind and your physical health. Icke takes this a little further again in claiming that we can see dramatic physical changes by controlling our reality.

In regards to Masonry, I believe Icke is advocating against secrecy, and elaborating on what he feels the connection Masonry has had on the world means. He exaggerates once again in claiming that Masons, at the top, are part of the those in power attempting to subjugate humans. This also combines the idea that power is inherently corrupt.

Morally, Icke talks about love, but this as well has an underlying philosophical concept which is similar to Aristotle's teachings. Icke states that love is truth, and a balance of polarities. If we can balance ourselves by loving our person as well as others, than we will live a more fruitful life.

I hope that explained some of it.

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by quango
No one has to believe it for it to be true.

No matter how many are conned into believing it wont make it true either....LOL

Agreed.

So are you saying that you believe it? The whole story?

Nope.


But action comes from belief. Truth is irrelevant.

The witches in Salem died - were they actually witches?
It doesn't matter if you are a witch or not when you're being hung from a tree.

The Germans were conned into thinking Jews were inferior/nefarious. Were they actually?
The truth of their innocence didn't save those Jews in the chambers.

Wars are fought in this god's name and that god's name and millions are killed.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if those gods are real or not.

I suppose this doesn't apply directly to this conversation, but I guess my point is this:
Sometimes knowing and understanding what people believe is more important than the "facts" because people act on what they believe.

So you don't have to believe what Icke believes - in the end it doesn't matter because very few things are ever "proven" to everyone's satisfaction - but it pays to not disregard what seems like a crazy idea to you.

To someone else, that crazy idea may be the foundation for how they perceive the world and thus, how they interact with the world.

You don't need to agree to communicate, but you need understanding.
And communication ends wars. (IMHO)

Originally posted by LTD602

Originally posted by quango

Originally posted by Amuk
...cke says> the world is and has been ruled by a secret group of alien shapeshifting satanic baby eating reptillion masons.
And the bottom line is that is EXACTLY what he says.

No one has to believe it for it to be true.

Meaning what? That you believe we are being controlled by Masonic Lizard men that eat babies and worship a goat??

Nope.
I believe everything is going to be just fine.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I still have yet to see any trace evidence of reptilians. With UFOs and aliens, at least we have evidence that something is REALLY going on.

...and the reptilians cant be aliens? from Icke it sounds as if they are from a different star system...
It appears alot of people who believe in aliens dont beleive in shapeshifting reptilians trying to control the world...

the reason is that aliens seem far off, yet we can imagine them close.
The thought of actually seeing an alien, guised as your favorite politician, and realizing most peoples worst dream "im not in control"...well, it freaks them out and is to close to home.
Its no fun talking about aliens, especially in this light.

But could it not be true???Who is to say a group of malevolent aliens dont want to do such a thing...and that they could not carry it out?

Gods Peace

dAlen