Is the Virgin Mary the same as the Holy Ghost?

Originally posted by GLontra
you should not question the official doctrine of the Church, that asserts the truth of the apparitions of Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Guadalupe, and Our Lady of Fatima...

The Catholic Church investigates alleged apparitions and then proclaims them as 'worthy of belief' or 'not worthy of belief'. There is no official statement in the church saying that ANY apparition, or what may be said at them, has to be believed by anyone.

Originally posted by Logarock
Well they call her the "queen of heaven" so they put her far above the saints and really.....on par with Jesus himself.

No they do not put her on a par with Jesus himself. My god ... :shk: Have any of you ever even read the Catechism of the Catholic church, or do you get all your information from jack chick tracts??

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
, the Holy Ghost/Spirit is deity. Mary needed redemption just as the rest of us.

There ya' go. And that's EXACTLY what the Catholic Church teaches.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Baptising infants is baptising unbelievers.

The practice of that comes from scripture quotes stating that 'entire families came forward to be baptised'. So that's where it comes from.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by monkcaw
and that she is a Redemtrix, a co-redemptor with Christ.

In over thirty years of hanging out with Catholics, I've never heard anyone claim that.

Mediatrix of Graces and Co-Redemtrix. Not a Catholic dogma. What they were saying was that Jesus came through Mary so she assisted in bringing grace and redemption. But that hasn't gotten any traction and isn't part of Catholic dogma. (last I heard)

Originally posted by GLontra

Originally posted by CosmicCitizen
No, the Trinity is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit which binds them....the Holy Ghost or Spirit is not Mary, the mother of Jesus.

edit on 21-1-2013 by CosmicCitizen because: (no reason given)

But maybe that's not how the Pope REALLY thinks...

I'm new to this discussion and I'm posting without reading the entire thread, so this sort of idiocy has probably already been rebutted.

It's amazing how ATS has cycles of reasoned and intelligent discourse followed by inanity. I've seen it at least twice in the time that I've been here.

If you get your facts from anti-Catholic websites or from fundamentalist activists you are getting third, fourth or fifth hand knowledge.

I'd advise you to:

1) Actually speak with Catholics or go to Catholic sources to find what they are actually taught about Mary and the Holy Spirit.

2) Not assume to know (unless you're psychic) what people REALLY think. Such a statement immediately degrades your credibility.


Eric

Originally posted by GLontra
Well, well...
After all, the doctrine of the Trinity was started by the Catholic Church, not by any protestant church.

Seeing as how the Protestant church didn't exist then, yeah.

It was the Catholic Church that created the concept of "The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit" composing a "Holy Trinity".

Catholics would argue that the the concept was actually established in the Bible.

At first, they designated the "feminine side" of the Trinity as being the "Holy Ghost". But, with time, in order to achieve their goal of having millions of people across the world worshiping their pagan trinity with a Mother Goddess, they gradually replaced in importance the Holy Ghost by "Our Lady", including creating the "Marian apparitions" as a way to boost the importance of "Our Lady".

edit on 21-1-2013 by GLontra because: (no reason given)

And you're support for this assertion is?

Eric

Tha answer is no.
Mary is not the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit in the Trinity

Originally posted by GLontra

Are you a devout Catholic, adjense?

If yes, you should not question the official doctrine of the Church, that asserts the truth of the apparitions of Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Guadalupe, and Our Lady of Fatima...

Here is an excellent example of your outstanding lack of knowledge about the Catholic faith. Catholics are not obligated to believe one way or another about any apparitions, even those few that have been deemed worthy of belief.

If you are unaware of such a basic tenet of Catholicism, what does that say about the rest of your claims?

Eric

Originally posted by ElohimJD

The facts:

In the Bible exists no trinity, there are however a couple of verses commonly translated as "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" in English versions of scripture, but when you understand the context and original greek written, it does not mention those three in one. The trinity is a wholely Catholic doctrine and not of scripture origin. It's authority and any who believe in its authority owe that authority to the catholic church only through the office of the pope.

Although you might not have meant it this way, your statement can be interpreted that only Catholics adhere to a belief in the Trinity. This is absolutely not so. I'd venture to guess that more Christians than not believe in the Trinity, regardless of denomination.

Eric

Originally posted by GLontra
You know...

The way the Catholics worship the Virgin Mary makes you wonder if the real Trinity that they worship isn't in fact the Father, the Son, and the Virgin Mary...

Is the Virgin Mary the same as the Holy Ghost?

What you think?

Mary is a metaphor for the "Gentile nations" (non Jewish people). Judaism "seeded" the one god principle into the pagan nations (Gentiles) and Christianity was born.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by JuniorBeauchamp

 

I know exactly what Anabaptist means. They taught and practiced a believer's baptism.. which I certainly agree with.

Ok, so you just disregard the real issue with the anabaptists I cited.

Are you aware that, except for the Roman Catholics, other paedo-baptists, such as Lutherans or Presbyterians do not subscribe to baptismal regeneration?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Read here .. what Catholics believe about Mary
Stop reading Jack Chick tracts.

Any time you resort to the "Jack Chick" gambit, it renders your post as irrational, insulting, condescending, unreasonable and lacking in substance.

It's the same as Obama and leftists playing the race card.

I suggest you follow "Catholic Answers" advice for you to not use it.

Originally posted by Shema

When I read the OP I was reminded of something from old, a kind of cryptic poem that goes something like this

The Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost
God, Jesus, and........

The last words were the secret not to be revealed but I remember that it goes

The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost
God, Jesus, The Holy Bride

So going on from there it would make a case for Mary Magdalene, if I have spelt the name right.

edit on 23-1-2013 by Shema because: (no reason given)

There has been a movement among some Roman Catholics to press the Vatican to declare the RC mary to be in hypostatic union with the Trinity as the "spouse of the Holy Spirit".

Luke 11: 27-28 As he was speaking, a woman in the crowd called out, "God bless your mother--the womb from which you came, and the breasts that nursed you!" Jesus replied, "But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice."

Luke 8:20-21 Someone told Jesus, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to see you." He replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice."

Matthew 6:7 In praying, don't use vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking.

I recommend Angelica Zambrano's second testimony, few people truly care about the truth, few find it.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Baptising infants is baptising unbelievers.

The flood of Noah was a foreshadowing and typology of baptism, as was the Israelites passing through the Red Sea.

Genesis 7:1
Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.


1 Corinthians 10
10 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

Peter draws the connection between the flood of Noah as a typology of baptism.


1 Peter 3
in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Not all the Israelites who were "baptized" into Moses through the Red Sea were believers, nor were all of Noah's children. But Noah and "all his household" were baptized through the flood.

That same concept of "your household" was carried over into the NT Church.


Acts 16:30-32
30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”


It does not mean that water baptism saves infants any more than water baptism saves adults.

What it does mean, and was practiced by the early Church from the start, is that baptism of entire households, including infants, toddlers and young children brought them into the covenant community of faith to be reared in the fear and admonition of the Lord, by the parents and whole faith community.

I bet your church has baptized lots of non-believers.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
Praying to Mary and the saints certainly is idolatry.

Then according to you, asking others to pray to God for you means that you are commiting idolatry.

No, but praying to spirits of the dead and angels is necromancy, divination, witchcraft and idolatry.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by monkcaw
and that she is a Redemtrix, a co-redemptor with Christ.

In over thirty years of hanging out with Catholics, I've never heard anyone claim that.

Mediatrix of Graces and Co-Redemtrix. Not a Catholic dogma.

YET!

Originally posted by EricD

Originally posted by GLontra
Well, well...
After all, the doctrine of the Trinity was started by the Catholic Church, not by any protestant church.

Seeing as how the Protestant church didn't exist then, yeah.

There is no "protestant church".

There is the one Church of Christ comprised of all genuine believers in Christ Jesus regardless of location and particular church affiliation and the Roman Catholic church is not it.

Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp

Originally posted by EricD

Originally posted by GLontra
Well, well...
After all, the doctrine of the Trinity was started by the Catholic Church, not by any protestant church.

Seeing as how the Protestant church didn't exist then, yeah.

There is no "protestant church".

There is the one Church of Christ comprised of all genuine believers in Christ Jesus regardless of location and particular church affiliation and the Roman Catholic church is not it.

Then you might want to mention that to GLontra, who I was replying to using her terminology.

Eric

Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by monkcaw
and that she is a Redemtrix, a co-redemptor with Christ.

In over thirty years of hanging out with Catholics, I've never heard anyone claim that.

Mediatrix of Graces and Co-Redemtrix. Not a Catholic dogma.

YET!

You are either a wiz at prognostication or are casting aspersion upon a group for something that it doesn't espouse. 'Yet' means it hasn't happened. Unless you're reading the future, your implied denunciation of such an act is out of place.

Eric

Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp
Any time you resort to the "Jack Chick" gambit, it renders your post as irrational, insulting, condescending, unreasonable and lacking in substance.

Wrong. The uneducated anti-Catholic garbage being posted on this thread is exactly the kind of bunk that Jack Chick trys to sell to bigoted idiots. SAME THING. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck .. then it's someone who adheres to the same bizzare and uneducated beliefs as Jack Chick.

I suggest you follow "Catholic Answers" advice for you to not use it

I suggest you get educated as to what Catholics really believe and stop pumping out a bunch of HOOOOOEY.

Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp
There has been a movement among some Roman Catholics to press the Vatican to declare the RC mary to be in hypostatic union with the Trinity as the "spouse of the Holy Spirit".

BULL. Oh .. there may be one or two kooks out there saying strange things ... but there is absolutely not any kind of credible movement by Catholics to try to get the Vatican to declare Mary to be God. :shk:

For some to say that 'Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit' just means that she was so filled with the Holy Spirit and so close to Him, that she was like his spouse .. it was like a husband and wife team. That in no way means she was God. No one believes that.

And since you don't understand how the Catholic Church works .. here's a little info for you .. it's NOT a democracy. It flows from the top down. The people don't tell the Vatican what it believes ... the Vatican tells the people what the truth is.