Is the Virgin Mary the same as the Holy Ghost?

Most people describe the holy trinity as this:

"Father, Son, Holy Spirit"

I believe the correct version is this:

"Father, Mother, Holy Ghost"

Two co-creational forces contained within a Supreme and wholly interpenetrative Presence.

The Law of Three!

Om Tat Sat.

Originally posted by GLontra
How many Mexican Catholics do you know?

What difference does it make if they're Mexican? Roman Catholic is the church in Rome, not the church in Mexico City, and you're claiming to speak to the teachings of the Roman Catholic church.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by GLontra
How many Mexican Catholics do you know?

What difference does it make if they're Mexican? Roman Catholic is the church in Rome, not the church in Mexico City, and you're claiming to speak to the teachings of the Roman Catholic church.

I'm specially interested in the way the Catholic Church INDUCES people to worship "Our Lady", specially in countries with a Catholic majority, like the Latin American countries.

Obviously, the idea of "Our Lady" as being part of the "Holy Trinity", being the same as the Holy Ghost, is not part of the OFFICIAL doctrine of the Catholic Church. But IN PRACTICE, that's what happens. Maybe because it's a HIDDEN and SECRET doctrine of the Catholic Church.

reply to post by GLontra


In other words your asking why Catholics give as much praise and attention to Mary when all other Christian religions don't. You certainly see a strong emphasis on Mary and not as much for Jesus and the Holy Ghost from these people.

You also have to remember the Roman Catholic Church started it's sect way late in the game. There were lots of established Christian churches around way before the Romans created the sect. ( which History shows was largely done to influence the people in and around Rome at the time.)

Established orthodox doctrine looks at the Catholics as a cult.. and rightly so. They took what was established at the time and twisted it into a form not then nor now recognized by Christians as being accurate.

Originally posted by GLontra

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by GLontra
How many Mexican Catholics do you know?

What difference does it make if they're Mexican? Roman Catholic is the church in Rome, not the church in Mexico City, and you're claiming to speak to the teachings of the Roman Catholic church.

I'm specially interested in the way the Catholic Church INDUCES people to worship "Our Lady", specially in countries with a Catholic majority, like the Latin American countries.

Obviously, the idea of "Our Lady" as being part of the "Holy Trinity", being the same as the Holy Ghost, is not part of the OFFICIAL doctrine of the Catholic Church. But IN PRACTICE, that's what happens. Maybe because it's a HIDDEN and SECRET doctrine of the Catholic Church.

edit on 21-1-2013 by GLontra because: (no reason given)

Yeah, that's what happens. Maybe because the pattern of archetypal relationships is part of our collective psyche. Dogma and inquisitions can't keep those archetypes and their relationships from surfacing for long.

You might say that the Holy Spirit is the feminine aspect of God, and the God we think of when we hear the word God is the masculine aspect. The fruit of their union (Yah + Weh) = the Christ.

Originally posted by GLontra

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by GLontra
How many Mexican Catholics do you know?

What difference does it make if they're Mexican? Roman Catholic is the church in Rome, not the church in Mexico City, and you're claiming to speak to the teachings of the Roman Catholic church.

I'm specially interested in the way the Catholic Church INDUCES people to worship "Our Lady", specially in countries with a Catholic majority, like the Latin American countries.

For the millionth time, the church does not teach people to worship Mary. Either learn what "venerate" means, or give up this nonsense, because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Obviously, the idea of "Our Lady" as being part of the "Holy Trinity", being the same as the Holy Ghost, is not part of the OFFICIAL doctrine of the Catholic Church. But IN PRACTICE, that's what happens.

No, it is not what happens. Different cultures may treat different aspects of faith differently (so some might over-emphasize Mariology and others underemphasize it,) but that doesn't change church teaching, which is laid out in the official Catechism. And they don't have one Catechism for Mexico and another for the United States.

Read it here: Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Maybe because it's a HIDDEN and SECRET doctrine of the Catholic Church.

No, it isn't a hidden and secret doctrine of the church. If it was hidden and secret, why would anyone follow it? How would they know that they should?

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
reply to post by GLontra

 

You also have to remember the Roman Catholic Church started it's sect way late in the game. There were lots of established Christian churches around way before the Romans created the sect. ( which History shows was largely done to influence the people in and around Rome at the time.)

Ignorance of history is no excuse for such ridiculous statements. The Roman Catholic church is the church which was established by the Apostles, and there is a clear line of succession back to Peter and Paul that shows it. All other forms of Christianity were either early heresies (such as the Marcionites or Gnostic Christians) or were groups that broke off from the Roman Catholic church (like Eastern Orthodox or Protestants.)

Established orthodox doctrine looks at the Catholics as a cult.

What "established orthodox doctrine" are you talking about? Let me guess... you belong to the "true church", and everyone else that thinks they are Christians are really worshipping Satan / the Moon / some pagan god.

Well, well...

After all, the doctrine of the Trinity was started by the Catholic Church, not by any protestant church.

It was the Catholic Church that created the concept of "The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit" composing a "Holy Trinity".

I'm almost sure that the Catholic Church "borrowed" this concept from the Egyptian and Babylonian trinities.

The Catholic Church seems to be a pagan cult, disguised as a monotheist church.


Since this forum is called "Conspiracies in Religions", my conspiracy theory is: the Catholic Church, since more than 1600 years ago, is controlled by a secret pagan cult, that controls the high hierarchies of the institution.

This secret "inside" pagan cult created the "Holy Trinity" dogma after the pagan trinity.

At first, they designated the "feminine side" of the Trinity as being the "Holy Ghost". But, with time, in order to achieve their goal of having millions of people across the world worshiping their pagan trinity with a Mother Goddess, they gradually replaced in importance the Holy Ghost by "Our Lady", including creating the "Marian apparitions" as a way to boost the importance of "Our Lady".

Originally posted by adjensen


For those who believe in such apparitions (and I am not one of them,) they are viewed as the miraculous appearance of that person, not a "stand in".

Are you a devout Catholic, adjense?

If yes, you should not question the official doctrine of the Church, that asserts the truth of the apparitions of Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Guadalupe, and Our Lady of Fatima...

reply to post by GLontra


Well, whatever. You believe whatever fictions you want, since you seem unable to comprehend history, theology, or church doctrine -- there is nothing in past or current church teachings to support your claim that Mary is the same as the Holy Spirit, but if it makes you happy to delude yourself and other non-critical thinkers, have fun.

Good question and it often times opens up a bit of a rabbit hole if you are interrested in going down it.

To answer your question, yes and no.

No Mary is not the Holy Spirit in Catholic dogma, however she has been used in certain cultures under the catholic umbrella (Latin America mostly) in a triune sense to help absorb those native cultures into their doctrines.

The facts:

In the Bible exists no trinity, there are however a couple of verses commonly translated as "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" in English versions of scripture, but when you understand the context and original greek written, it does not mention those three in one. The trinity is a wholely Catholic doctrine and not of scripture origin. It's authority and any who believe in its authority owe that authority to the catholic church only through the office of the pope.

The word trinity and its current form is not scriptoral, and exists solely due to papal command.

In scripture there is God the Father/Creator and His son who had a begining as birthed through Mary (did not eternally exist). Any beliefs above or beyond those two God beings (Elohim) and there governmental structure (God the Creator above all and Jesus Christ the High Priest and King of Kings) is doctrine added to scripture by fiat established through the papal office and have no authority in scripture.

The History:

Most of all pagan religions have a core of three gods (father, mother, child), you see this in several religions such as Canaan (Baal, Easter, Tammutz), Egypt (Osiris, Isis, Horus), Greece (Zeus, Hera, Appolo), Nordic (Odin, Freya, Thor) etc.

This is because all false pagan religious systems stem from an acient story that took place prior to the confounding of languages at the destruction of the Tower of Babel. A story between a father (Cush) a mother (Semiremis) and their child (Nimrod). After Nimrod (horus) killed his father Cush (Osiris) only to be killed by his great uncle Seth (Set) as a result of usurping God's governoment through Noah after the flood, Semiremis set up the architype for the pagan pantheon. After languages were changed, each culture passed the story down in there own format until you have the varias pagan trinities you see today.

The key to understanding how the christian trinity was created is to understand the "mystery babylon" spoken of in scripture. The religious system created in babylon under semiremis' direction, never went away. They were altered and changed overtime to keep God's truth hidden from mankind as cultures changed/evolved. When Simon Magnus (Simon the Magician) saw the true power of the Holy Spirit (power of God, Spirit of God which is Holy because it belongs to Him) working through the apostle Peter, he saught to buy that power. AFter being rejected by Peter, Simon magnus went to Rome.

Overtime this Simon Magnus became the head of the pagan church in Rome, a title at the time reffered to as the Pater (father of fathers). So here we have a Simon Pater living in Rome as the head of the Roman Pagan church just after the death of Jesus Christ. This Simon Pater is what history believes is Simon Peter, the fist pope (pater, father of fathers) of the Roman Catholic Church, Simon Peter was not the fist pope, he was the head of God's church at the time Simon Pater was the head of the Church of Rome. He carried the ancient pagan mystery churches from babylon and incorporated them into the Roman Catholic church, so that by the time we reach 100 AD, ther are now two very different branches of early christianity, God's true church (Church of God) and a counterfiet Roman Catholic Church (universal church of Rome).

If your authority comes from the Catholic Church rather then scripture then you are Catholic by belief, even if you claim to be protestant.

By the end of the Counsel of Nicea the following doctrines were established through the Holy Roman Emperor Constantine as voted on by the Roman Catholic church which go against scripture and God's truth:

1. The Holy Trinity
2. Sunday Worship (Baal the sungod, was honored on the 1st day of the week).
3. Pagan holidays (chirstmas/winter solstice rebirth of the sun god's son Tammutz, evergreen tree; Easter honoring the fertility goddess Easter, mother of Tammutz).
4. Weekly recieving of the Euchraist.

By contrast, here is what scripture says is true.

1. There is One God the Father the Almighty Creator of the heavens (spiritual realm) and the Earth (physical realm).
2. You are to keep a 7th day Sabbath Holy as a sign (same word as "mark" in Revelation) forever that I am your God.
3. There are 7 annual Holy Days, created by God for mankind to keep Holy because they teach mankind about God's plan for the salvation of all who have ever lived.
4. You must observe an annual Passover of the Eternal, one that Jesus Christ fulfilled and altered the observation of in 31 AD, during the last supper. Once a year, God's people do as Jesus Christ asked them to do during the last supper.

She represents the feminine Shekina energy that the HS also holds, so in that sense, yes. Also the same as Isis (as in Isis, Osiris, Horus, another trinity)

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
reply to post by GLontra

 

You also have to remember the Roman Catholic Church started it's sect way late in the game. There were lots of established Christian churches around way before the Romans created the sect. ( which History shows was largely done to influence the people in and around Rome at the time.)

Ignorance of history is no excuse for such ridiculous statements. The Roman Catholic church is the church which was established by the Apostles, and there is a clear line of succession back to Peter and Paul that shows it. All other forms of Christianity were either early heresies (such as the Marcionites or Gnostic Christians) or were groups that broke off from the Roman Catholic church (like Eastern Orthodox or Protestants.)

Established orthodox doctrine looks at the Catholics as a cult.

What "established orthodox doctrine" are you talking about? Let me guess... you belong to the "true church", and everyone else that thinks they are Christians are really worshipping Satan / the Moon / some pagan god.

edit on 21-1-2013 by adjensen because: (no reason given)

Ya know.. all Protestant Churches also think thay can trace a line back to the Apostles. Ignorance of History? Your company line is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. You bought it hook line and sinker without looking at historical documents that spoke of orthodox Christian doctrine before the church of Rome was formed. We know when the Roman Church was formed and who it was formed by - The politicians in Rome- Jesus started his Church in Jerusalem not Rome. Read Acts. Even though Peter may have had a church in Rome, it was a Jewish converted to Following Jesus ( an extension of Judaism) type of Church not a Roman Catholic type of church. Essentially Christianity is an extension of the covenant God made with the Hebrews and that is first to and for the Jews and second for the gentiles.. something the Catholics don't place any emphasis on as well as twisting other doctrine like that of the Trinity which is not biblical.

It's funny how you accuse me of doing the same thing you have done, " All other forms of Christianity were either early heresies (such as the Marcionites or Gnostic Christians) or were groups that broke off from the Roman Catholic church (like Eastern Orthodox or Protestants.)".

The established orthodox doctrine I refer to is the two things Jesus said a believer must do to be saved: Repent in the name of Jesus and be baptized for the remission ( translates forgiveness) of your sins. If you follow these commandments at the end of each of the Gospels and then see the Apostles carrying out those commandments in the book of Acts, you will see that each time anyone in the Bible was made a Christian, it was always, without exception done in this same manner. Not a belonging to the Roman Church, Not a sprinkling and not at birth. Never was these things done or accepted to become a Christian the way Catholics teach it..

reply to post by adjensen


Well they call her the "queen of heaven" so they put her far above the saints and really.....on par with Jesus himself.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


Your theology is yet another one that comes down to salvation by works, and works alone.

"Got baptized wrong? You're not a Christian and you aren't saved."

That belief was invalid when the Anabaptists preached it in the 16th Century and it's no less so today.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

Your theology is yet another one that comes down to salvation by works, and works alone.

"Got baptized wrong? You're not a Christian and you aren't saved."

That belief was invalid when the Anabaptists preached it in the 16th Century and it's no less so today.

Would you say this?

"Got the identity of the Holy Spirit wrong? You're not a Christian and you aren't saved."

If you wouldn't say that then why make a big deal out of any of this? If someone needs to grow closer to God through the feminine aspect of the Divine, let em'.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

Your theology is yet another one that comes down to salvation by works, and works alone.

"Got baptized wrong? You're not a Christian and you aren't saved."

That belief was invalid when the Anabaptists preached it in the 16th Century and it's no less so today.

Not at all. We are saved by Grace not works lest any man should boast. Yet what is faith without works? It is dead. Faith needs be wrought with works by the Holy Spirit as it is his job to lead into all truth. Following the commands of the Lord, ( back to the book of Acts) is works through faith when it is obeyed.

And yes, many people who were baptized wrong Jesus will say to them, I did not know you because they did not follow the commandments of jesus as given in the book of Acts. Sorry but thats the way it has to be.. everyone cannot be all right all the time when there are so many differences in doctrine. If you don't believe me, I challenge you to search the bible book of acts onward, and see how those commandments of Jesus were carried out at the end of each Gospel translated into people becoming Christians only one way with no exceptions.. it's not me you have a problem with.. its what the scripture says.. there is a clear charge given at the end of the Gospels, a clear Apostles carrying out that charge in Acts, and through the rest of the Bible those things never once deviate. Christians were always made one very specific way.

reply to post by GLontra


No, the Holy Ghost/Spirit is deity. Mary needed redemption just as the rest of us.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


There is nothing in scripture that says that infant baptism is invalid, and so what you are committing here is a heresy -- claiming that the technical aspects of a human performed work trump the will and grace of God. That is salvation by works, and works alone, and that is non-Biblical.

In addition, if you did some historical research, you'd find that the Anabaptist claims were as much politically motivated as they were religious -- in that time in Germany, only baptized Christians could hold political office, so by claiming that non-Anabaptists didn't have a valid baptism, they were simultaneously invalidating all political office holders who were baptized as infants.

That's what got them burned at the stake by the Lutherans and led to the massacre at the Anabaptism Kingdom of Münster, not so much the religious differences.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

Your theology is yet another one that comes down to salvation by works, and works alone.

"Got baptized wrong? You're not a Christian and you aren't saved."

That belief was invalid when the Anabaptists preached it in the 16th Century and it's no less so today.

I take exception to that. What was wrong with the Anabaptists and their belief that baptism was only for believers? That's the Biblical prerequisite.. belief.