What Qur'an says about Deism.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Your god doesn't want his name known, otherwise he'd have told Muhammad instead of playing games with him by giving him an nameless appelation, which i find fishy considering that my God wanted Abraham to know his name and commanded Israel to proclaim his name to the nations. So yeah i can see why you'd think God's name doesn't matter.

So if you call god "God", you are unwittingly participating in some religious conspiracy? Or those arabs christians that refer to god as "Allah" are doomed to hell? Or those that refer to god as "Deus" or "Dios" or "Dieu" or even "Isten" are condemned to actually worshipping some pagan deity, even if they are Christian (the perspective I assume you're coming from)?

The fact of the matter is that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being is something that cannot in any sense of completeness be encapsulated at all by mammalian vocal chords in a derived semitic language (Does God only speak Hebrew? Are other languages then "ungodly"?), or any symbol, any series of pictographs on a paper, and to claim otherwise is to do disservice to the concept of such a being..an incomplete idea.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by racasan

I don't think the name of god matters one whit, and neither does Islam, either, really. Another famous verse from the Quran is something along the lines of "All the most beautiful names belong to God".

And as far as Mohammad goes, I'd say that in the history of humanity, it is quite verifiable that Mohammad is fairly important, but again, the Quran makes no real claim towards Muhammad's importance over any of the other Prophets or messengers of God, or claim that he (and the rest of them) were anything more than mere humans.

Neither of these two examples are at all defining in any major way the meaning or the totality of "Islam". THAT would perhaps more accurately be put into the statement "There is no god but God" (I use the translation of "Allah" instead of the word "Allah" in this case, because you seem to have a hang-up about the name).

wait I thought muslims had to say that Shahada thing “there is no god but allah and mo. is his profit) otherwise they aren’t muslims and don’t some of you guys have to also follow the sunnah
en.wikipedia.org...

The verses that the OP posted (and many others throughout the Quran) speak in a manner that assumes the obviousness of a greater power, of God. There are a whole slew of such verses prefaced with "Have you not seen ...?" and "Did you not see...?" and end with something similar to "Verily there are signs for those who are observant" or "those who study" or even "those who are pious" (all this leading back to the importance and focus islam gives to education and learning and even partly to what became the basis of empirical science).

ok but to me it just looks like – water is wet so that proves allah is true, or the sky is blue lets go slay some infidels, and chuck in that bit about the sun setting in a muddy pool and then what’s not to believe?

You seem to be misunderstanding the purpose of the OP (as far as I understand it). You seem to be understanding "Because of all these things mentioned, God exists" (something the OP posted to show the similarity to the view of deists) to mean "Because of all these things mentioned, the specificities of the Islamic religion are true". The Quran/Islam/muslims obviously believes in the truth of those, but those particular verses are not focusing on that.

When I told some muslims I had read the Quran they where surprised when I said I didn’t believe a word of it, I on the other hand couldn’t understand how someone could believe any of it – it seems like an un-crossable hurdle

Look at it in the reverse way. If there are deists who acknowledge the existence of a higher power through the observation and the beauty of the universe and its mechanics, if there was a revelation from such a higher power, wouldn't it also include pointing out of these things?

Would a higher power make this kind of mistake?
Qur'an 36:40
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float in an orbit.

Whoever wrote the Quran thinks the sun goes around the earth

The question of "Why would deists care?" seems to be a bit naive and short-sighted, though, I think. Why would anyone care? Why do we discuss anything at all? Why talk to Christians about Hinduism or to Buddhists about Judaism? Everyone already has their views, and shouldn't care anything about anything else, right? Wrong. Learning and understanding the other side is what ATS is about, and occasionally along the way, you learn something that might resonate with you, and while it won't change your world view, you'll be better for it.

edit on 27-12-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

I have no problem with logical7 posting and yes of course he can put across his point of view and I am happy he did – but since the main definition of a deist is that they don’t do revelations I thought it was a question worth mentioning

reply to post by racasan

Originally posted by racasan
wait I thought muslims had to say that Shahada thing “there is no god but allah and mo. is his profit) otherwise they aren’t muslims and don’t some of you guys have to also follow the sunnah
en.wikipedia.org...

One says that in front of witnesses (in the legal sense) if one wants it to be known they have converted to islam, but no, there is nothing that you CAN'T be a muslim if you haven't said it. Again, this is all physical stuff, has nothing to do with belief in Allah in Islam, so I'm not sure how it is relevant?

Also, do you reduce the Deist concept of finding God/a higher power evidenced in the beauty and perfection of nature as "water is wet and the sky is blue"?

Originally posted by racasan
When I told some muslims I had read the Quran they where surprised when I said I didn’t believe a word of it, I on the other hand couldn’t understand how someone could believe any of it – it seems like an un-crossable hurdle

Which part exactly is difficult to believe? While the arabic word used in the verse you quoted is also used to mean "space" or "firmament", I hope you realise that the sun DOES move in an orbit around the galaxy (something like 200 million years for completion)?

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by racasan

 

One says that in front of witnesses (in the legal sense) if one wants it to be known they have converted to islam, but no, there is nothing that you CAN'T be a muslim if you haven't said it. Again, this is all physical stuff, has nothing to do with belief in Allah in Islam, so I'm not sure how it is relevant?

ok so you don’t have to say the Shahada and you don’t have to follow the sunnah to be a muslim

ah but wait, what if you think mo was a big fibber then all the rest of what follows falls down – right?

Also, do you reduce the Deist concept of finding God/a higher power evidenced in the beauty and perfection of nature as "water is wet and the sky is blue"?

You said

There are a whole slew of such verses prefaced with "Have you not seen ...?" and "Did you not see...?" and end with something similar to "Verily there are signs for those who are observant"

And from the op

It is God Who splits the grain and the seed. He brings the living from the
dead
It is He Who breaks the dawn. And He made the night for rest, and the sun
and the moon for calculation

And so on:
Which to me has about as much going for it proof wise as water is wet so that proves allah is true, or the sky is blue lets go slay some infidels

Which part exactly is difficult to believe? While the arabic word used in the verse you quoted is also used to mean "space" or "firmament", I hope you realise that the sun DOES move in an orbit around the galaxy (something like 200 million years for completion)

yes the sun does move but I think it looks more like a reference to the flat earth, sky held up on invisible pillars, stars are lamps in the upper atmosphere, sun goes around the earth universe as was thought to be the case back at that time

reply to post by racasan

Originally posted by racasan
ok so you don’t have to say the Shahada and you don’t have to follow the sunnah to be a muslim

Again, I'm not understanding what physical actions have to do with a belief in God or a higher power. How is it relevant?

Originally posted by racasan
yes the sun does move but I think it looks more like a reference to the flat earth, sky held up on invisible pillars, stars are lamps in the upper atmosphere, sun goes around the earth universe as was thought to be the case back at that time

*Babloyi shrugs*
Nothing mentioned here about that though..that is what YOU'RE saying.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by racasan

*Babloyi shrugs*
Nothing mentioned here about that though..that is what YOU'RE saying.

edit on 28-12-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

oh sorry I thought it was clear, I was commenting on other ‘facts’ found in the Qur'an in the context of that Qur'an 36:40 quote saying the sun moves – it looked like you where suggesting it referred to the sun orbiting the galaxy – when a better interpretation is that its just the old sun going around the flat earth Ptolemy thing

reply to post by racasan

Originally posted by racasan
oh sorry I thought it was clear, I was commenting on other ‘facts’ found in the Qur'an in the context of that Qur'an 36:40 quote saying the sun moves – it looked like you where suggesting it referred to the sun orbiting the galaxy – when a better interpretation is that its just the old sun going around the flat earth Ptolemy thing

But you didn't comment on any other facts. You specifically mentioned THAT passage. And it seems you presupposed its wrongness anyhow. A better interpretation is that it is wrong because that is what you understand of history and times past?

But lets go back to what you did claim anyhow. You said that the Quran claims:
That the sky is held up by pillars
That the stars were lamps in the upper atmosphere
That the sun revolves around the earth

We've already established that the last point is not true. The first point is not true either (I actually looked it up, since you didn't actually mention any verses)...it specifically says the opposite, that the sky is WITHOUT pillars. And as for the 2nd point, stars are referred to as lamps. So what? They are described within their property of providing light. And the verse says "The lowest heavens", nothing about the "upper atmosphere". If you want to again, presume that "upper atmosphere" means "lowest heavens", that is your prerogative, but then the only "stars" that'd be there would be shooting stars or meteors before they land on earth.

reply to post by babloyi


this is the invisible pillars passage
www.islamawakened.com...

lamps
www.islamawakened.com...
www.islamawakened.com...

if you want to say these passages don’t say what I think they say then fine no problem – but do you agree that they do look as if they are saying silly stuff?

reply to post by racasan

Let me quote the first couple (also, you're the first guy on ATS I've seen who uses islamawakened's multiple translation quran as a reference, good on that ) of translations: "created the skies without any supports that you can see" "created the heavens without any supports that you can see" "created the heavens without pillars as you see them" "created the heavens without any pillars so that you see the heavens" and so on. What invisible pillars are you talking about?

And again, the second verse says (literally word for word, as well as in the translations you provided) that the sky has been adorned with stars. The third one following the same point uses the word which means lamps, describing a property that stars have: providing light. It is a method of description. It is somewhat difficult to to explain something so basic about language in general to someone else...If I say that "the moon was a spotlight that lit the way for me", I don't literally mean that the moon is a carbon arc electric device lined with mirrors to focus light on something. I mean that the moon is a spotlight to light the way. And it is not the first time the Quran uses the metaphor of a star being a lamp (in that case providing the light of God's knowledge). I don't think it is silly at all. I find it nicely poetic.

reply to post by babloyi


ok but can you understand that as a non-believer I can look at

He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see

And read it as there are invisible pillars holding up the sky?

Or read
And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

And see it as just a primitive mans attempt to understand the lights in the night sky (its just not the kind of mistake a creator of the universe should make, but that a primitive man of that time might)

or wonder why an omnipotent mind trying to make a book/revelation for his creation puts stuff in it that looks exactly like the ideas of Iron Age man and not understand he would just cause disbelief given that the book was written in the Iron Age?

reply to post by racasan

Well, because the thing about the Quran is that it is meant to be a book for all humanity for all ages, and while it may talk a little about nature and science and reality, it is a religious book first and foremost, not a scientific journal.
Having it full of stuff about zero gravity and the big bang and red-shift would not only have confused the Iron-age man you speak of, but also have had to use words that weren't even invented.

Thus, instead, metaphors are used to explain phenomenon, and new "discoveries" are regularly made with new readings of the Quran with modern understanding. Non-muslims may point to this as cheating and attaching meaning after-the-fact, and it might be so sometimes , but the meaning was still there.

reply to post by babloyi


so do I take that as a, no you don’t understand?

reply to post by racasan


what i see is that if a verse has a simple enough meaning thats understandable and a possibility to get another meaning that makes the verse look silly, you choose the later because you WANT to disbelieve.
Surah Isra'

45. And when you (Muhammad ) recite the Qur'an, We put between
you and those who believe not in
the Hereafter, an invisible veil (or
screen their hearts, so they hear
or understand it not). 46. And We have put coverings over their hearts lest, they should
understand it (the Qur'an), and in
their ears deafness. And when
you make mention of your Lord
Alone [La ilaha ill-Allah (none has
the right to be worshipped but Allah) Islamic Monotheism] in the
Qur'an, they turn on their backs,
fleeing in extreme dislikeness. 47. We know best of what they listen to, when they listen to you.
And when they take secret
counsel, behold, the Zalimun
(polytheists and wrong-doers,
etc.) say: "You follow none but a
bewitched man." 48. See what examples they have put forward for you. So they have
gone astray, and never can they
find a way. 49. And they say: "When we are bones and fragments
(destroyed), should we really be
resurrected (to be) a new
creation?" 50. Say (O Muhammad ) "Be you stones or iron," 51. "Or some created thing that is yet greater (or harder) in your
breasts (thoughts to be
resurrected, even then you shall
be resurrected)" Then, they will
say: "Who shall bring us back (to
life)?" Say: "He Who created you first!" Then, they will shake their
heads at you and say: "When will
that be ?" Say: "Perhaps it is
near!" 52. On the Day when He will call you, and you will answer (His
Call) with (words of) His Praise
and Obedience, and you will
think that you have stayed (in
this world) but a little while! 53. And say to My slaves (i.e. the true believers of Islamic
Monotheism) that they should
(only) say those words that are
the best. (Because) Shaitan
(Satan) verily, sows
disagreements among them. Surely, Shaitan (Satan) is to man a
plain enemy. 54. Your Lord knows you best, if He will, He will have mercy on
you, or if He will, He will punish
you. And We have not sent you
(O Muhammad ) as a guardian
over them.

reply to post by racasan

I'm very sorry, racasan, and sorry for the one line reply, but I don't understand your question.

reply to post by babloyi


I was referring to my question here
www.abovetopsecret.com...

where I asked if you can understand that as a non-believer I have no reason to find excuses for the very obvious errors in the Quran


sorry for the confusion

reply to post by logical7


the quran says the sky is held up on invisible pillars
the quran say the stars are lamps

It seems simple enough to me and it was the view of science of the time the quran was written
en.wikipedia.org...

Ptolemy was the author of several scientific treatises, at least three of which were of continuing importance to later Islamic and European science. The first is the astronomical treatise now known as the Almagest

en.wikipedia.org...
the Arabic name is al-majisṭī (المجسطي)

csep10.phys.utk.edu...

I believe the most honest reading of the quran is of it telling of a flat earth with the sun going around it

this is allegedly an Arab Muslim saying the earth is flat based on his understanding of the quran

Oh...well, I don't know what to say. I'm not looking for excuses when I read it that way. Heck, I could turn around the point and say " Can you see that others might not be reading into it with a mindset to dismiss or prove it wrong?".

The Quran is full of metaphors, and some of them are quite complex, but I'd say they're all pretty obvious. Light, trees, fruit, farming, even man is used as a metaphor.

reply to post by racasan

the quran says the sky is held up on invisible pillars

what if you just change pillars to 'forces'
the sky is sure held up against gravity, its expanding more faster than gravity can reverse.
Quran also says the sun and moon are 'floating' thats the closest term that can describe movement in space. And even you would agree that it would be silly to conclude that it means they are in water!!

reply to post by racasan


and about the arab guy in video, would you really use it to prove your point and completely miss the other arab guy?
Do you expect that every muslim should be at least a science graduate? Or even rational?
There are all kind of people with wierd beliefs. You found one who happens to be a muslim too.
During the islamic golden age islamic mathameticians calculated the diameter of earth within 5% error using trignometry a thousand years before modern methods. Why would they do that if they considered earth as flat?

logical7

what if you just change pillars to 'forces'

Excuse me? You're proposing that we rewrite the word of God?

Not a chance. It's poor apologetics, and makes no sense in the context of what is supposedly a verbatim revelation.