I will renounce my faith

OP, first you state that you will renounce God & your religion if anyone can show examples of him endorsing violence; and then in another post you say that nobody has the right to judge the Almighty. You can't have it both ways. Either you believe God is impeccable, & no matter what he does or says it doesn't discredit his infallibility. Or you're open to the notion that he is in-fact -- fallible, corruptible, jealous, lonely, sadistic; any of these things.

Clearly the Bible is riddled with examples of extreme violence & intolerance. God himself ordered the deaths of countless 'innocent' people, including children. The logic here is that so long as people can refer to an absolute authority, nothing they do is wrong. This has been the case many times throughout history, most notably in crusades, inquisitions, & overall Catholic reign of Europe. They would torture, murder, horde wealth, extort, molest, and do all these things under proclamation that their dogma is inerrant; and that God ordained it.

My foundational basis for rejecting Christianity is the fact that it relies on fear for conversion; humans are naturally inclined to fear death. TO fear what lies for them after death. Religion exploits this attribute, and that's exactly what Christianity does. If Yahweh exist, then he's playing a game with everyone. Period. If he's truly omni-everything, then he is in full control over what does or doesn't exist. That includes his angels, Lucifer & his Earthly influence, sin in general, the definition of sin, heaven, hell, our destined lives. He knows all & allows all. Therefore he is directly responsible for the end result. I cannot accept a God that has foreknowledge of the paths billions of people are going to take, and then knowingly allows them to exist miniscule temporary lives with an eternal damnation. There is NO purpose to eternal hell, NONE. It's a place or pure sadism & apathy -- not loving judgement.

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by godlover25

 

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these.

The truth is, God is responsible for both, good and evil.

Probably the best answer in this whole thread the reason being is because there is no evil or good.

How can I say that?

When you see all sides to one story you begin to see evil in good and good in evil. Neither exists it's all a matter of perception.

One soul may think man being reincarnated for eternity is hell. Another soul may love the fact that they get to experience everything in all perspectives for eternity. Infact both is correct in gods eyes. But for you it may just be your point of view.

reply to post by godlover25


I will provide a thought here that will assist those who think God could possibly go against His own law to give and receive. If I give you my Car to work a job to feed your family and say that I will require it back later, I am merely loaning you something that belongs to me in the first place. I let you use it to generate enough revenue to gain your own. You can use it until I require it back. If I then find out you took the car and robbed banks with it for your own benefit and never intended to give it back, I would have the right to take that car back at the appointed time or send you to jail for not honoring the agreement. If I have the power to extract it from you when it is due, knowing that I will give it back again later, the only thing relevant to the transaction is that I moved something of my own back and forth. I might even be dumb enough to loan it again to you thinking you may have changed. I likely will not give you the best car I have the next time. I might give you a bike the next time to see how you do this time around.

In this case, God gave us life and HIS Spirit for a greater purpose than becoming a thief. It was never ours in the first place and this vehicle our soul resides in is on loan. We are partakers of something we did not earn and did not deserve. The Spirit that allows the mind life is actually the mind of God behind the veil. We are allowed this mind as a temporary state of being. When God requires what is his back again, it is then judged (Hebrews 11). The law is also set by God. It is perfect. God requires a life back and then promises that "You must be born again" until the final judgment. In this, we have the further choice to earn the mind on a permanent basis. God allows us to purchase it by what is produced by us or the one he sends in our place. After we are shown to be incapable of rising to the requirements of this law, God then sends an intermediary to do it for us so we can own life. This time, our eternal state of mind is a gift and totally undeserved, but given by grace. In all of this, God continues to give when we steal from Him. The requirement is belief in the one that gave the gift. As long as we acknowledge the giver and use it for others, we inherit what is given in the end if we are shown to be honest in our intent. The quality and quantity of the gift in the end is then determined by how hard we worked to value the law applied to the gift. Giving to others in the same manner defines what is received as the reward later.

Again, we do not own our Spirit. That Spirit is God. We only own what we produce as fruit by developing our own Spirit. If debt is the only thing left from the process, then we pay what is owed from what we took as thieves. God requires the Spirit back and we are on our own if we do not value the gift or the giver. If we do, God allows us the inheritance forever.

In the instance of Paganism and the land of Canaan, God wiped out nations who did not value the giver, but instead placed the value on a false idea of God. All of those souls lived again and will continue to live until the last judgment. God continues to give a new car to us each time. Further, we do not remember what came before to protect us until the last trumpet call goes out for our soul to return to judgment. We are baptized for one purpose and that purpose is not for our own delight. It is for repentance and learning to give and receive. When we do, we experience delight from suffering and not from the reward we took. Giving is the only way to experience the delight of the Spirit within us. God loves and we must as well. Anything that happens to the Spirit between this also happens to God. We cannot blame Him for managing his own Spirit with His own laws and requirements.

We have no grounds for any emotion other than thankfulness the chance to repeat the process of learning to experience true delight.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by godlover25

 

In this case, God gave us life and HIS Spirit for a greater purpose than becoming a thief. It was never ours in the first place and this vehicle our soul resides in is on loan. We are partakers of something we did not earn and did not deserve. The Spirit that allows the mind life is actually the mind of God behind the veil. We are allowed this mind as a temporary state of being. When God requires what is his back again, it is then judged

Again, we do not own our Spirit. That Spirit is God. We only own what we produce as fruit by developing our own Spirit. If debt is the only thing left from the process, then we pay what is owed from what we took as thieves. God requires the Spirit back and we are on our own if we do not value the gift or the giver. If we do, God allows us the inheritance forever.

We have no grounds for any emotion other than thankfulness the chance to repeat the process of learning to experience true delight.

Really... so you're telling me that we don't "deserve" to exist, & that these bodies are "on loan"?? How can we not deserve something that we have no control over? If there's anything we don't deserve, it would be eternal torture.

Some of what you're saying sounds new-age like, in the sense that the 'spirit' is all Gods, and that he simply breathes it into mortal vessels to his own amusement. That when we die, the spirit returns to God, and therefore we are all part of one. Is that what you're saying? Anyway, when you use the term spirit, it can be vaguely interpreted as consciousness, sentience, or experiencing. God is the singularity state of consciousness; perhaps the accumulation of infinite experiences. In that sense he is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscieent -- because "he" is everything that we are.

Everything that has ever happened, will happen, or even 'never happened'. Therefore "damnation to hell" may simply be displacing/organizing parts of his infinite nature. Yin & yang, the polar opposite ends of the spectrum; the perfect natural balance in-between.

Originally posted by godlover25
reply to post by mythos

 

Cherry picking?

I believe every single word of the entire Bible, Old and New Testament, all 66 books, are the perfectly inspired Words of God.

If any man can show me ONE SINGLE VERSE, just ONE VERSE, that says that I should stone or hurt or kill anybody or commit violence in anyway, which applies to me today, I will publicly renounce my faith.

(i can't believe i'm strolling back into the ring, because i do believe the OP may be a bit daff.... but here goes.)

you say you believe in every word of the bible...
you say that if a man [why not a woman, btw?] can give you ONE VERSE from the bible that says you should commit violence you will renounce your faith.

you have gotten countless quotes from the bible that cite the violent intent of the Big Guy.

by the law of logic, and your own oath, ye shall verily be judged.
by the law of logic, and your own oath, ye shall renounce thy faith.

either that or you will be known as a hypocrite... at least here in ATS land.

reply to post by godlover25

Hey OP,

I'm not a God hater and don't expect you to renounce your faith regardless of what is said in this thread. However, if you are looking for some kind of evidence that God is evil I don't understand why you'd disregard verses from the Old Testament. I don't understand why part of the stipulation is that the verse must apply to you today. Is it not the same God in either testament? Why must it apply to you? You've said the Bible in its entirety (whether it's meant for you or not) is the perfect word of God -- so regardless of when God spoke, and who God spoke to, it's still his word, is it not?

The words may not "pertain to all followers of God to this current day", but that doesn't mean he never said them, or he never meant them. Whether they were intended for ancient Israelites or all of mankind, they are still Truth, and indicative of his character to this day. It's his perfect word after all and perfect doesn't stop being perfect because times change -- not for an omnipresent God anyway. So why should we excuse the words of an all-knowing, omnipotent dictator? Frankly, he should've known better, or rather the people who invented those laws should've had better foresight. One would think they would being inspired by the almighty and all.

There have already been several verses posted in this thread detailing God's cruel and heartless nature, his instructions on murder and slavery, and his lust for blood.

Look! God's evil side is written throughout the scriptures for all to see.

reply to post by namine


What if god told you to kill someone to see if you had the intelligence or conscious to know that it is the wrong thing?

Isn't the bible supposed to be a history book of life lessons? Aswell as secrets to reality and death?

Things to think about not exactly pointing you out.

Originally posted by metalholic
reply to post by namine

 

What if god told you to kill someone to see if you had the intelligence or conscious to know that it is the wrong thing?

Isn't the bible supposed to be a history book of life lessons? Aswell as secrets to reality and death?

Things to think about not exactly pointing you out.

edit on 13-11-2012 by metalholic because: (no reason given)

No problem, I don't mind your questions.

Honestly, I can't wrap my head around a God who would want to test me on my willingness to murder when he already has the intelligence and consciousness to know what I'm capable of and what I'm not. Oh well, I guess it's all part of the God works in mysterious ways mantra.

I'm sure that's what it's supposed to be, and it has its fair share of lessons, but I'm really, really hesitant of taking it at face value.

This surely applies to you today,

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"


Make no mistake, I am not now nor ever will be against gays. They are humans, just like me.

How do you read these verses Godlover?

The bible says the following people should be killed:

- Homosexuals (Lev.20:13, Rom.1:26-32)
- Adulterers (Lev.20:10, Deul.22:22)
- Disobedient children (Deut.21:20-21)
- Women who are not virgins on their wedding night (Deut.22:13-21)
- Those accused of wickedness by at least two people (Deut.17:2-7)
- Anyone who works on the Sabbath (Exod.35:2-3, Num.15:32-6)
(Not even to kindle a fire. And there is no exception for life saving jobs like paramedics, firemen, or doctors.)
- "Kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Moses - Num.31:17-8)

Here's what it says in regard to beatings and poisonings:

- It is acceptable to beat slaves only if they don't die within two days (Exod.21:20-1)
- If a man suspects his wife of cheating he can serve her a cursed drink; if she becomes deformed, then that proves her guilt (Num.5:12-31)
- It is okay to beat your children with a rod - it won't kill them (Prov.23:13-4)

I'd like proof of your resignation from Christianity please. A mailed letter including a polaroid of you dropping your bible in a dumpster would suffice. Also, if you have any cross pendants you won't be needing anymore, send them to me. I can melt them down and make something useful with the metal.

reply to post by godlover25
For some reason, I have a sinking suspicion that you'll only get pro-renunciation posts from those who refuse to read verses in-context or otherwise don't understand the different covenants and convenant participants involved.

The god of the Israelites and christians has made different agreements with different peoples and for different reasons at different times - as he mentioned to some of his various prophets ahead of time.

reply to post by godlover25


im not qouting from the bible, but i read a few passages to know what it says

we got adam and eve being kicked out of paradise, a good father would punish them (bad eve with a wristslap) and then forgive em
we got noah's story (god killed everyone else)

This. Is one of the most stupid threads in the history of ATS.

Not because the many various citings of various cruel things written in the bible. Not because some people have spent a lot of time to find those verses.

But because the OP simply denies anything. It is not even fun to read it as the OP will always just come up with an irrelevant bibleverse to "reply" or will simply say "no, thats not it, you wrong, god right!".

No fun. No info. Just boring old "listen to me, b/c I'm sooo much wiser on this book than you, and therefore (no further proof needed) I am right, you are wrong, and above all this is the perfect book (no further proof needed) so shut up and learn that this is the perfect book."

Thank you. I will now put you on my ignore-list forever, OP.

reply to post by ManFromEurope


I agree with the OP here although I would not have left out the OT. People do not understand the context they just quote any instance of violence, which does not equate to evil. Violence is the method but God is the only one who can judge and all of his judgments are righteous.

For the people who say the people killed are innocent blah blah how do you know? and if they were how do we know they were not used for that purpose and rewarded appropriately in the afterlife? just throwing that out as a counter since we like to consider all possibilities here.

EnochWasRight is correct and there are many thieves about these days. We should all be thanking God for allowing us to live and experience life. PERIOD.

I find it curious that the family is used as a model for our relationship with God and people these days have turned their parents into their best friends. God can and will be your best friend but he is also God which is not just a title or descriptor but also a station that includes being YOUR maker.

I fought vehemently against the notion of God , I was a god hater of the highest order. I felt the people who believed this were responsible for most of societies ills and backwardness. How wrong I was. I danced right along with the pied piper until one day God reached out and opened my eyes. Someone who had done so much to willfully go against God was offered a second chance. Like tumblers in a lock falling in place one by one my mind was filled with understanding. The door was opened and for the first time the world made sense. Yeah it sucked hardcore because of what we have done through our choices and actions but that was already something I had accepted.

The good news though is that God knows the end from the beginning and nothing happens that is not according to his will. I don't think God created us to let us be destroyed. God is loving and merciful. If you don't believe me , and this might not hold true for everyone depending on circumstances, but look at your family. Look at your child , or mother, etc and that bond you feel with them. That's the feeling that God gave to me and a sense that things will be ok. I learned this in a really bad place but try this sometime. Look at the roughest meanest person you can when they sleep. It is the most innocent next to childhood you will find someone. I kind of imagine that God looks at us this way even when we cant.

Sorry to get personal or divert the thread I just feel that the majority of anti-god sentiment is derived from either lack of knowledge, a sense to feel in control or superior, or peoples bad experience/history with followers and institutions that claim to follow God. If people legitimately took the time to read the book in context, including understanding prophecy and symbolism, biblical/Jewish customs, meaning of the original root words etc then they would have a hard time trying to use the verses they have to "discredit" God.

*This was a response to the thread and not to the poster above.

We all know you were never going to renounce your faith, so why make this thread? Are you baiting?

Not cool man.

So it really comes down to whatever your view of eschatology is.

In the end, how does everything turn out?

From this thread, and the one that this branched out from, you stated that your god decreed all this killing by the ancient Israelites to protect themselves from false idols, so that his might and glory would be established.

Did the moment ever occur? That moment when the might and glory was revealed? I can't quite find it in the history books. I seem to recall some Old Testament verses that indicated that the might and power and awesomeness would be revealed to the world as they watch old Israel go through long slow torture unto death, (for their sinful idolatry of course).

So what can we look forward to? I'm getting a little depressed here. Was all that YHWH ordered killing for nothing?

Throw us a bone at least.

Originally posted by NihilistSanta
reply to post by ManFromEurope

 

I agree with the OP here although I would not have left out the OT. People do not understand the context they just quote any instance of violence, which does not equate to evil. Violence is the method but God is the only one who can judge and all of his judgments are righteous.

So.. Are you able to explain the context of this "kill every man who lies with a man like with a woman" - anti-homosexual thing? Care to explain?

Because this sounds like something a homophobic, but himself homosexual priest in old times would have written in the bible, if he could and no one looked at that moment. In my view, there is no incentive to kill someone just because he is a homosexual - right? Therefore, there must be more to this or the bible is stupidly wrong.

Well maybe not that but modern worshipers of God do not call him YHWH

Name me one scripture, just one, where Christians refer to their father as YHWH?

Just one!

Your second error is in putting your faith out there as a contest for everyone.

Your religious to the extreme. Christian maybe. Kingdom... absolutely not!

reply to post by godlover25


You should never even offer to renounce your faith, for God can take it from you as easily as He gave it to you. Hold it like a treasure in your heart, the only one that matters.