A challenge for the Mason haters

reply to post by NarrowGate

I love Idaho! Great outdoors, but the towns can sometimes be far apart. The State's population is just over 1.5 million.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Interesting. The reason for the confusion is that I was not trying to push anything on anyone. A "known Truth" in the Catholic perspective is something that Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and (not really necessary at this point)Clergy all agree on. If you are familiar with it, why did you pretend not to be? To be, as you put it, intellectually dishonest and incendiary?

Same with Satan.... If you are so familiar with the beliefs, you would have responded in a way that is not contrary to claiming to be.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
Interesting. The reason for the confusion is that I was not trying to push anything on anyone.

This is from your first post in this thread:

Originally posted by NarrowGate

1) I am a Christian so bear with me.

...

B. It is a known Truth that Satan appears as the Angel of Light and will continue to until Revelations.

You made no mention of being a Roman Catholic and strictly adhereing to the Catechism. Not all Christians believe in Satan, demons, possesion, etc. If you are trying to make a point then you need to be as clear as possible.

No where in your post do you say, 'This is a known truth to me.' You came on here like every other person claiming to know the 'truth' to which we all must blindly accept.

A "known Truth" in the Catholic perspective is something that Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and (not really necessary at this point)Clergy all agree on. If you are familiar with it, why did you pretend not to be?

To repeat. You were not clear in your post.

Same with Satan.... If you are so familiar with the beliefs, you would have responded in a way that is not contrary to claiming to be.

As I stated, not all Christians believe in Satan.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Now you are being extremely deceptive and as such I am ending the conversation.
I refer you to my signature if you invite future discussion.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
Now you are being extremely deceptive and as such I am ending the conversation.

Your cop out and inability to address even rudimentary questions is duly noted.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Don't mistake unwillingness for inability.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
Don't mistake unwillingness for inability.

Willfull ommission is equivalent to lying.

Now who is being deceptive?

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


willful omission? please explain what I have omitted. This is getting very childish. Are you really just trying to force me to waste my time digging up quotes?

coming from the "Jesus would be proud" guy. You must forgive me if I don't care to honor that request.

edit: you can not understand your Salvation as a Christian without acknowledging WHO and WHAT Satan is. You keep saying not all Christians believe in the existence of Satan. That's the equivalent of saying "not all Christians believe in the Gospel" so? To quote the Pope "He who does not believe in the existence of Satan does not believe in the Gospel". If you ever read the Gospel, this will become apparent. That is.... if you are a fan of logic.


Besides all of that, even you know you are playing games. I'm done playing with you.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

willful omission? please explain what I have omitted. This is getting very childish. Are you really just trying to force me to waste my time digging up quotes?

coming from the "Jesus would be proud" guy. You must forgive me if I don't care to honor that request.

edit: you can not understand your Salvation as a Christian without acknowledging WHO and WHAT Satan is. You keep saying not all Christians believe in the existence of Satan. That's the equivalent of saying "not all Christians believe in the Gospel" so? To quote the Pope "He who does not believe in the existence of Satan does not believe in the Gospel". If you ever read the Gospel, this will become apparent. That is.... if you are a fan of logic.

edit on 16-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)

Besides all of that, even you know you are playing games. I'm done playing with you.

edit on 16-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)

No true scotsman says hello! You appear to have made very good friends with him.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
willful omission? please explain what I have omitted. This is getting very childish.

Claiming that you have the answers to the questions posed to you but are purposefully not responding is willfull omition.

You are right, that type of behavior is indeed childish.

Are you really just trying to force me to waste my time digging up quotes?

You keep asking me the same questions. Yes, go find these alleged quotes.

edit: you can not understand your Salvation as a Christian without acknowledging WHO and WHAT Satan is.

You do not even understand the doctrine of the the church of which you claim to be a member. Salvation in the Roman Catholic Church is based on Christ's sacrifice and is not dependent on knowledge of Satan. Additionally, this salvation is open to everyone regardless of whether they even have a realtionship with Christ or not.

As Pope John Paul II stated in the Redemptoris Missio:

"The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all."

You keep saying not all Christians believe in the existence of Satan. That's the equivalent of saying "not all Christians believe in the Gospel" so? To quote the Pope "He who does not believe in the existence of Satan does not believe in the Gospel".

That quote is word of mouth hearsay and is not directly attributable to the Pope.

Even if it were, would a Christian's non-belief in Satan, possession, demons, etc, not make them Christian-y enough for you?

If you ever read the Gospel, this will become apparent. That is.... if you are a fan of logic.

I have and found a good bit of it to be illogical.

Besides all of that, even you know you are playing games. I'm done playing with you.

You can continue to avoid answering questions but judging by other posters comments calling you out on this it is quite apparent who is the game-player.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


No in that case wilfull omission is not deceptive. Jesus withheld the truth from many who could not handle it.

You have engaged in every form of deception since we began this discussion. That is why I am done talking to you. Go play quote games with someone else.

Augustus btw, I wouldn't care if the whole world told me I am wrong. I know who Truth is, and what He taught me.

reply to post by thelongjourney


I enjoy discussing things with him until he starts the quote games. I am not a fan of political debate, mainly because of the lack of Truth and the deceptive tactics involved. This discussion of Truth has turned into just that.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
No in that case wilfull omission is not deceptive.

Willfull omission is always dishonesty.

Jesus withheld the truth from many who could not handle it.

The main difference being that you have no 'truths' that people could not handle.

You have engaged in every form of deception since we began this discussion. That is why I am done talking to you. Go play quote games with someone else.

And you can keep avoiding the questions while ignoring your obvious mistakes like not even understanding Roman Catholic Salavtion. Comical.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Thank you for proving my point.

I have told you some truths in this very thread that you could not handle. Your brain goes into overdrive trying to find a way around them.

Just because you believe a bullet can not kill you does not make it so.

just because you believe there are not sharks in the ocean does not make it so.

Just because you deny Truth does not make Truth a lie.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
I have told you some truths in this very thread that you could not handle. Your brain goes into overdrive trying to find a way around them.

Really? I must have missed them. Or were you refering to your unshakable belief that the Prince of Darkness is real and the erroneous belief that you must also believe in him for salavtion? Or maybe your hearsay quote from the Pope?

Those truths?

Just because you believe a bullet can not kill you does not make it so.

Unlike Satan a bullet is real and can very much kill you.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


You are ignorant. You just called me a heretic for quoting what the Pope actually said.I will dig it up for you specifically? Maybe..depends on how ignorant your next response is.

As for your belief that if Satan is real, we can just brush him to the side and he will go away:

www.catholicnewsagency.com...

Now answer this

1. How is my understanding of Christian (human) Salvation flawed?

Oh yeah smart guy show me where I said you must believe in the existence of Satan to be saved. You are ignorant I am done talking to you after our next few responses. This is becoming offensive.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
You are ignorant. You just called me a heretic for quoting what the Pope actually said.

Before you start calling me anything you may want to look up the defintion of hearsay. An anecdote from a guy to another guy who said he met with the Pope is not a directly attributable source. This is third hand at best.

I will dig it up for you specifically? Maybe..depends on how ignorant your next response is.

You will not be able to dig anything up because the Pope never went on record with any such nonsense.

As for your belief that if Satan is real, we can just brush him to the side and he will go away:

www.catholicnewsagency.com...

Why would I care what a Catholic tabloid's views on Satan are? How is this even relevant?

Now answer this

1. How is my understanding of Christian (human) Salvation flawed?

I explained it you already. It has nothing to do with belief in Satan and is open to everyone regardless of whether they have a relationship with Christ.

Oh yeah smart guy show me where I said you must believe in the existence of Satan to be saved.

Uh, right here:

Originally posted by NarrowGate
edit: you can not understand your Salvation as a Christian without acknowledging WHO and WHAT Satan is.

Claiming that a Christian needs to 'acknowledge Satan' otherwise they will not 'understand their salvation' is rather clear in its implication.

You are ignorant I am done talking to you after our next few responses. This is becoming offensive.

You are right. It is offensive to watch you post false quotes, deny others and basically act like a buffoon while avoiding having to give answers.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


More info you don't know:

www.ignatiusinsight.com...

A simple google search reveals the Pope did say it, and it has actually been posted on ATS. I don't feel like digging through it, but here you go.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Pope John Paul II said it. Also, happens to be one of the greatest men to live in the last century.

As for the rest of your ignorance, all I know is you can not get to the Father except through the Son.

I do not know who goes to Heaven or Hell, I can only speculate.

I do KNOW that you can NOT understand the context of your salvation without acknowledging Satan's existence. Seems to have caused quite a few problems for you.

Ahh fine I did the digging. It is in the article linked in that post though, which I read long before I read anything on ATS


Amorth states that one who no longer believes in Satan does not retain the faith and is no longer Catholic. This was affirmed to him when Pope John Paul II stated “He who does not believe in the devil does not believe in the Gospel."

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


No no no: when did I say no one is saved who doesn't know Satan is real.
Learn to use logic, not childish tactics. We are now done talking.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

More info you don't know:

www.ignatiusinsight.com...

A simple google search reveals the Pope did say it, and it has actually been posted on ATS. I don't feel like digging through it, but here you go.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Pope John Paul II said it.

Uh, no. Father Amorth said that Father Erentti said that the Pope said that. Stop spreading nonsesne. There is no directly attributable quote of the Pope saying any such thing. Even Amorth said it was hearsay:

That is the reply which was given to him and which I repeat.

It should also be known that Amorth thinks that Yoga, Harry Potter, Masonry, etc, can lead to being possessed by a demon or are Satanic. The guy is an obvious wacknut.

I do KNOW that you can NOT understand the context of your salvation without acknowledging Satan's existence. Seems to have caused quite a few problems for you.

This is not even remotely accurate. As was posted, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that all persons are eligible for salvation whether they know Jesus or not. If they do not know Jesus how would they then know Satan and be able to place the two in 'context' as you claim it must be?

Ahh fine I did the digging. It is in the article linked in that post though, which I read long before I read anything on ATS

I am aware of the article. Again, it is third hand at best.

Amorth states that one who no longer believes in Satan does not retain the faith and is no longer Catholic. This was affirmed to him when Pope John Paul II stated “He who does not believe in the devil does not believe in the Gospel."

There is no quote of any Pope saying any such thing. Only Amorth's anecdotoal story.