Israel /= Jew

reply to post by sheepslayer247


This is why I say I stand with the PEOPLE of Israel, but not the GOVERNMENT of Israel.

Sorry, but have nothing else to add hence the one liner.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


I was on a forum with Springer a while back and asked him if I could post a Koran burning. He said no and I respected that.

I do hope that the religious respect spreads across all faiths. I'd hate to leave ATS.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
I agree. The ridicule of the nation's actions should not be equated to ridicule of the religion of it's people. Islamaphobes and anti-Semites both should be outed from the conversation so a real discussion can take place about the corresponding governments actions.

But the real authority in Iran are with the Imams
How do you see their Theocratic Government?

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Well I can wholeheartedly agree that I in no way want anything said on this forum to be taken as you described.

I'm just interested in honest conversation. One in which we can discuss certain topics without being labeled racist or intolerant.

reply to post by SLAYER69

But the real authority in Iran are with the Imams How do you see their Theocratic Government?

I think that Iran desperately needs to separate church and state. The religious fundamentalists have a big voice within the government but I don't believe the people of Iran are just as radical. Also, I don't let the outspoken ideologues taint my views of Islam.

That's the same approach I take towards Israel as well.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

But the real authority in Iran are with the Imams How do you see their Theocratic Government?

I think that Iran desperately needs to separate church and state. The religious fundamentalists have a big voice within the government but I don't believe the people of Iran are just as radical. Also, I don't let the outspoken ideologues taint my views of Islam.

That's the same approach I take towards Israel as well.

Nice point. The problem is the Islamic fundamentalists are the ruling party in Iran, and are preparing to be in Libya and Egypt, ala Muslim Brotherhood. I am not saying there aren't good people or good Muslims in these countries. I AM saying that the ruling class/government powers ARE the radicals, and ARE in charge. That is the problem.

Also note when the above is the case, one of two things are happening. They are either staying in power by force, or a majority (or large portion if not the majority) of the citizenry ARE also at least tacitly supporting said governments. same applies to Israel, the US, or anywhere else I would suppose.

I dished out several stars to you guys on this thread, some good conversation.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

As for your comments regarding the history of Jewish persecution; I can point to Muslims, Christians and really every other long lasting religion and show that they too, were persecuted throughout time.

That is such an obnoxious thing to say.

Do I really need to make clear why that is??

Show me a generation in which the Jews weren't subjected to mass programs of hatred? Please, show me.

Compare the 'persecutions' of Muslims and Christians (what period, what time, and what sort of persecution were they subjected to?) to that of Jews. It's an oafish thing to say, and you reveal just what kind of person you are by resorting to that tawdry an argument.

Jews, unfortunately, are the historical victims of the Western and Oriental world.

So any criticism of them means that I just flat out hate all of them right?

An unreasonable criticism of Israel, which doesn't take into acount context, or comparison with others, is in effect, a form of antisemitism.

Antisemitism worked in previous eras because of lies and propaganda. This propaganda was directed against the individual Jew. Today, lies and propaganda work against the national apparatus of the Jewish people, Israel. The lies are less profane in their claims, but they are gross, wholly unfair exaggerations of what Israel does, producing in effect an exaggerated worry about Israel's existence - similar to the collective insanity created by Goebbels and Nazi propaganda that repeatedly emphasized the menace of World Jewry, all for the purpose of hammering in the point: they are dangerous, we are protecting ourselves, were acting out of self defence, etc.

What makes today perhaps just as ridiculous as back then, is the sheer denial of the factual threat presented in Islamic radicalism. This Islamist threat is SURELY, unequivocally more serious to our way of living than anything the Jewish state does, but instead of supporting Israel in it's war on Islamic terror, were bemused into thinking the 'terror threat' is merely an exaggeration or propaganda tool of western imperialists.

It's STUPIDITY. Read a book on Islam, like Robert Reillys 'closing of the Muslim mind'. Islamism is the threat; and just as western powers actually facilitated Hitlers extermination program, so to mendacious forces in our world - helped by people like yourself - create this fictitious idea that Israel is the source of the worlds problems, all for the ultimate purpose of enabling the extremist Muslims against them. Now that Obama helped the Extremist Muslim Brotherhood come to power, and the extremist Iran continues to threat Israel's existence day after day, that reality has become more realistic.

I don't hate anybody, Israel included.

Oh of course. You don't hate. Hate is too strong an emotion for someone as spiritually evolved as yourself; rather, the 'significance' of the Jew, it's religion, its culture, and ultimately, the society it creates (the three forms persecuted in religion, race, and nation) is an obstacle to establishing your world socialist state. Therefore, they must be removed, as a symbolic gesture of mankind's collective will towards universality.

I still find that to be gross and evil.

The Jews are good for the world; their philosophy contributes to the greater human conversation of how we should live. I'm not calling for the 'eradication' of Islam - just it's moderation to make it compatible with liberal democracy; nor am i looking to see the end of Christianity or the traditions of the East. I love diversity, I love how each of us contributes to the world.

I HATE with an UTTER PASSION this agenda against the Jews, and I will always be one of those annoying dissenters telling the truth.

You can justify murder however you see fit, in the end it's still murder.

Please, list for me these 'human right' abuses? Do they compare to the crimes of Omar Al Bashir? To the crimes of the Assad regime in Syria? To Myanmar? To the crimes of China in Tibet and against its own citizens? How bout the Turks against the Kurds? The list goes on. Every country seems to be guilty of abusing it's minorities. But how many countries are as justified in their response as the Israelis? They're dealing with Islamic radicals, people who don't even want their state to exist, at all, under no circumstances; who launch rockets at their cities and commit atrocious crimes against their civilians. And still, Israel strives to balance their concerns; their concern for the people who want them dead - the majority of the palestinians - and the safety of their own citizen.

but Israel has the power to make things better.

Like what? Open Gaza? So they can continue committing terror in greater numbers? So the tradeoff being, make life easier for them, so life can be made worse for Israelis? They force upon Israeli to take up these draconian measures; its not nice, but they make it unavoidable. Hamas is an ISLAMIST organization; because that is so, a blockade must be in place to protect Israels (and Palestinians ultimately, since any attack will see reprisals) from the voracious Jew hatred of PA propaganda.

Give me another issue, and I can explain to you the rationale, which of course you will disagree with.[

reply to post by dontreally

Show me a generation in which the Jews weren't subjected to mass programs of hatred? Please, show me.

There isn't one. Neither is there any other religion that hasn't had a generation of persecution in some part of the world or another.

An unreasonable criticism of Israel, which doesn't take into context, or comparison with others, is in effect, a form of antisemitism.

I don't consider requesting that Israel follow international law unreasonable. Sorry, but it's really not.

As for radical Islam, yup it's a problem, yes it must addressed. War is not the answer, nor does it give Carte Blanche to another nation to act in the same dispicable manner.

but instead of supporting Israel in it's war on Islamic terror, were bemused into thinking the 'terror threat' is merely an exaggeration or propaganda tool of western imperialists.

Israel is just as much a tool of western imperialists than any other you can point out. Israel is not only important for the sake of the religious, but also for socio-economic conditions of the middle east. At least the imprant ones that they claim.

Oh of course. You don't hate. Hate is too strong an emotion for someone as spiritually evolved as yourself; rather, the 'significance' of the Jew, it's religion, its culture, and ultimately, the society it creates (the three forms persecuted in religion, race, and nation) is an obstacle to establishing your world socialist state. Therefore, they must be removed, as a symbolic gesture of mankind's collective will towards universality.

That's a lot of words you put into my mouth there. When did I state I wanted them removed? When did I state I wanted a socialist state?

You again make adhominem attacks instead of addressing my actual thoughts, with other thoughts.

Please stop doing so.

The Jews are good for the world; their philosophy contributes to the greater human conversation of how we should live. I'm not calling for the 'eradication' of Islam - just it's moderation to make it compatible with liberal democracy; nor am i looking to see the end of Christianity or the traditions of the East. I love diversity, I love how each of us contributes to the world I HATE with an UTTER PASSION this agenda against the Jews, and I will always be one of those annoying dissenters telling the truth.

That's all well and good, but on the other hand you must acknowledge Israel's mishandling of many many issues. I would also think that a supporter of a free and 'peaceful' Israel would also condemn acts of terror and violence against others. Including those done by those you support.

Please tell me that you don't support the current situation between Palestine and Israel?

se, list for me these 'human right' abuses? Do they compare to the crimes of Omar Al Bashir? To the crimes of the Assad regime in Syria? To Myanmar? To the crimes of China in Tibet and against its own citizens? How bout the Turks against the Kurds? The list goes on. Every country seems to be guilty of abusing it's minorities. But how many countries are as justified in their response as the Israelis? They're dealing with Islamic radicals, people who don't even want their state to exist, at all, under no circumstances; who launch rockets at their cities and commit atrocious crimes against their civilians. And still, Israel strives to balance their concerns; their concern for the people who want them dead - the majority of the palestinians - and the safety of their own citizen.

Again, other nation's behaviors do not provide the authority to others to commit the same crimes. This isn't following ' the flow of traffic'. I'm sorry that excuse just isn't going to fly.

"God's Chosen" should probably be held to a bit of higher standard don't you think? Furthermore, the fact that you think that the majority of palestinians want Israel destroyed just points out your lack of knowledge surrounding what they want.

Not that I know any better, cause I don't. But I doubt you've gone over to Palestine and done neighboorhood canvasing to check what all of them think about Israel.

As for the answer, I don't know what it is. Two state solution seams reasonable to me. After you remove the extremists from power on both sides.

You can't have proper democracy when the leaders of those nations want nothing else but mutual destruction. Which is exactly what I see when I look at the problems we currently have.

~Tenth

reply to post by sheepslayer247



Jews and Zionists are very different things.

Most Jews I know are anti-Zionists

Israel=Zion.

Israel has been taking over by Satan, uhh I mean Zionists. Israel is one of the most dangerous places to be a non-Zionist Jew.









Man those orthodox Jewish guys are sooooo Anti-Semitic!


God bless Palestine and I hope for the speedy dismantlement of the Zionist-Israel state.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

There isn't one. Neither is there any other religion that hasn't had a generation of persecution in some part of the world or another.

Let me set the criteria for how logic demands that we judge this.

Duration - how long it has occurred
Ubiquity - Where it manifests
Context - under which conditions that it exists. For example: what is the reasoning given for their dislike.

Now do you want to compare? Should I really even need to bother detailing how far worse Jew hatred was and has been for at least 2600 years - with the Alexandria riots of 38 CE, and much earlier, to 650 BCE, as detailed by the Elephantine paprii:

The Jews had their own Temple to Yahweh[1] which functioned alongside that of the local ram-headed deity, Khnum.[2] The "Petition to Bagoas" (Sayce-Cowley collection) is a letter written in 407 BCE to Bagoas, the Persian governor of Judea, appealing for assistance in rebuilding the Jewish temple in Elephantine, which had recently been badly damaged by an anti-Semitic rampage on the part of a segment of the Elephantine community.[3]

Link

That's back in BIBLICAL times. Then you have the Alexandria riots in the Greco-Roman era; The Jewish wars with Rome in the 2nd century, the persecutions of the early Byzantium Christians and the subsequent 'dejewification' of Jerusalem; the early Muslim persecutions of the Abbasids, down to the persecution after 6 day war; only at rare times and place have Muslims treated their Jews with an even modicum of respect; generally, it is was either complete subjugation, morally, socially, politically and physically to Islam.

And then there were the crusades, whose major victim were Jews; then the inquisition in Spain, whose major target was the Jew; then you have isolated blood libels here and there throughout Europe from the 1000's to the 1800's; then you have the Cossak persecutions, which left 400,000 Jews dead; then you have the Czarist pogroms and the public backlash against the Jews which saw thousands of Jews killed by rabid mobs; and then you have the horrific, hardly needs to be mentioned, extermination pogrom of the Germans, which killed 5-6 million Jews in 6 years, tormenting the Jews of Europe, spreading filthy completely diabolical lies about them which of course the Christian population had little trouble accepting, and Christian morality had little problem enabling. And the 'Jewish exodus' from the Arab world which saw 800,000 Jews leave between 1948 and 1967, abandoning (or rather, given no other choice but to abandon) 50 billion dollars worth of assets.

No community on this planet has been perpetually abused, criticized, and hated, as the Jewish people. It's a FACT. To compare them to Muslims in an attempt to 'equate' them is to ignore all comprehension of qualitative and quantitative criteria. It's an absurd comparison. It's so clearly an absurd comparison. You are reaching out something that has no plausible truth to it, yet you insist it is somehow justified to say.

It's pure unadulterated reductionism, reducing a thing which possesses qualitative and quantitative difference to some other example of a similar thing; they are the same thing, thus, they are the same. That, as a matter of fact, is what clinical psychology calls a schizophrenic reasoning; the wrong thing is being emphasized. In 2 + 2 = 4, what matters is the educative purpose of learning how to add; to take from this 2 + 2 = 4, some other idea not of relevance from the purpose, but to insist that this other course has validity because it suits some inner 'logic' in your mind, then something is wrong with your thinking.

I'm not saying this is you of course. I'm merely saying there are 3 possibilities to this fact: you're either crazy, which I find unlikely; you're extremely biased, and too emotionally entrenched in your desire to oppose me, or this particular subject, making you completely incapable to emphasize the proper thing; or, your secret intention is to stir opposition towards Israel, and so you will say and argue whatever you need to in order to accomplish it.

I'm caught between the second and third possibilities.

Of course, I'm not questioning you as a person, you might be a very fine human being capable of great goodness; but here, I find something wrong, and so I must object to your attempt to create a false perception in peoples minds of Israels guilt.

I don't consider requesting that Israel follow international law unreasonable. Sorry, but it's really not.

I'm talking about the overall emphasis Israel receives vis a vis other member nations of the UN. It's inordinate.

As for radical Islam, yup it's a problem, yes it must addressed.

So these radical Muslims - who are radical - who subscribe to what we would call a radical doctrine, who will resort to every dirty tactic in the book to effect this chief aim: to gain power for Islam, or in the terms of the Muslim brotherhood's official motto "to die in the way of Allah is our highest aim". Ok...so how should we deal with this?

War is not the answer, nor does it give Carte Blanche to another nation to act in the same dispicable manner.

Oh...so we should give them some flowers? Hugs and kisses?? This is just not a logical answer. If someone is seen to be a threat, follows a philosophy and theology that sees power - and not reason - as of the ultimate moral importance, than you better respond in a way that counters his power; you don't address reason to a group that see's itself in the context of acquiring more power.

That's the intention of Islam. To acquire more power under the pretense of diplomacy. It's genius, because it is SO DIFFERENT from how were accustomed to thinking.

In Sunni Islam, morality derives 100% validity from the Quran. This is connected to their theological identification of Allah with Power and Will. If God is power, his ability to convey a message and purpose to man must also accommodate this essential attribute: a book of COMMANDS and DIRECTIVES and GUIDES for how man should live. The Quran is this book; arabic the language of God. Everything that emanates from this book derives nourishment from God's direct will, and so every jurisprudential interpolation of every sura in the Quran provides the material for how Muslims should live.

Islam emphasizes power. It splits the world into two categories: Dar Al Islam, and Dar Al Harb. House of Islam, and House of War. When they describe your territory as 'war', that basically says what they intend with you. It's all out war. Every time they shake your hand and speak words of peace, each of these acts are necessitated by the need to acquire power for Islam, to make Dar Al Islam larger, and Dar Al Harb smaller.

I'm not saying all Muslims do this, but the theology of Sunni Islam makes clear this is the aim of their religion, and so, very likely that many mainstream, sharia abiding Muslims are indeed a constant threat to everyone in the non-Islamic world.

reply to post by dontreally


I don't think I have read a more illucid, emotionally driven, deviations from the subject of a thread in quite some time. You state you are passionate about your subject. Of that I have no doubt. I hesitate to use the word 'zealot' but we might be getting to that point soon.

Do you live in Israel? I supposed one could see such fervor from one facing the challenges presented there on the ground day in and day out.

And the part about 'Jews' being the most persecuted bunch in the history of humanity (and I paraphrase) is a stretch. What possible metric are we utilizing here?

reply to post by ABNARTY


Why don't you address the points I made, instead of criticizing in general my overall tone?

So, if I like Orthodox Jews but don't agree with the state of Israel (nothing against their citizens) and hate Zionists, what does that make me?

reply to post by dontreally


OK, I'll bite but the tone is definitely drowning out the points. Regardless I will give it a shot...

I think it is fair to say Jews, however they want to define themselves, have no corner on the market of persecution of humans by other humans. Just by the fact they are such a small percentage of humans on this planet, it is difficult for me to swallow just 'how far worse Jewish hatred was and has been...'. Forget Stalin, Pol Pot, Pinochet, etc, etc, etc.

You have some references to historic events, got it. But to what are we comparing it? To ignore the rest of the planet and focus on the injustices to one tiny segment in a vacuum? What do really believe that approach will produce?

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by Sinny

 

Well I don't want to get into all that, but I just want to make sure people understand that the government and state of Israel is not directly tied to the Jewish faith alone.


reply to post by AnonymousCitizen

 

I agree.

Indeed

The Nation State called Israel is run by Zionists. many of the Jewish faith do not agree with the the ideals of Zionism

however... the Nation that is Israel is designed as a "Haven"/'Sanctuary' for all the scattered Jews from around the Globe

and in that regard... the term Israel must include all of the 12 Tribes, ergo Israel is in actuality a Jewish State that should reasonably be called Judea... just like the land was called during the Roman Occupation in the times of Jesus...
Palestine & Judea was a dual-occupied land... under the rule of Rome... where the Arabs/Jews/Samaratins all coexisted...
albiet with zealots and religious insurrections every generation !

reply to post by dontreally


I think you'll find that slavic peoples have been opressed/enslaved just as long as jewish. Only difference is they don't have a unifying factor and constantly talk about it.

If you continually talk about being the victim, you always will be one. It's time to move forward.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by ABNARTY

OK, I'll bite but the tone is definitely drowning out the points. Regardless I will give it a shot...

What is this even supposed to mean?

As important as tone is, it is subordinate at all times to the point; the truth, the concept, takes precedence to the way it's conveyed. This is generally regarded as the absolute truth. Emotion i.e. tone, hides the truth.

I think it is fair to say Jews, however they want to define themselves, have no corner on the market of persecution of humans by other humans.

So despite all the examples I've given in my previous post, you still think Jews aren't a special and unique case of social persecution?

If you believe that, than I have no idea whats wrong with your thinking.

Forget Stalin, Pol Pot, Pinochet,

Wow, seriously. Do you understand where you went wrong?

My logic was in regard to the general fact of the Jewish community being persecuted more than any other community. Name the time and the era, if the Jews were there, they were the main targets of persecution. No other people has such a widespread history of being targeted by a majority population for either religious, racial, or nowadays, geopolitical, reasons.

You merely mentioned particular examples of wide scale killing. Yes, those are bad too. But they are particular abuses that occurred under a totalitarian regime; the people targeted weren't targeted for anything of perennial dispute, but a present political identification, or perhaps a historical dispute that goes back a few hundred years, as with the Hutu and the Tutsis. But again, they do not match the duration, ubiquity, or context of what the Jews were subjected to.

You have some references to historic events, got it. But to what are we comparing it

Other individual communities.

To ignore the rest of the planet and focus on the injustices to one tiny segment in a vacuum?

What vacuum? The social collective is not a vacuum; each community exists within it.

reply to post by DaesDaemar


First, with regard to the Serbs, their issues are only as old as Islams encroachment into the Balkans. As for the Slavics, by whom??? The Russians? Germans? That is no more than a period of 800 or so years.

The Jews go back FAR LONGER. and they also dealt with it far more permanently, as in they were actually stuffed into the worse part of towns to live - called the ghetto.

If you continually talk about being the victim, you always will be one. It's time to move forward.

Who's talking about the victim? I mentioned historical episodes which show their own reasoning for why the people doing the ABUSING are morally responsible for those they abuse.

To just blame the victim is an extremely immoral thing to suggest.

In fact, the very treatment of the abuser creates in his victim a feeling of great resentment and anger, hence, the Jewish response to non-Jews. You begin to think of these people as abnormal - as fundamentally lacking in moral sensibility, in justice, right and wrong.

Of course, gentiles understand just as well Jews do. I'm a gentile, and I understand just fine that the Jews have been treated very badly by the Christian west and Islam. The Hebrew bible always emphasizes the idea of 'treating the stranger in your midst with kindness'. Most Jews express this kindness. All people should express this attitude.

But the fact is, Christianity never did this towards the Jews (just read up on what Martin Luther had to say about the Jews) and in fact, reading up on the holocaust and seeing the complete indifference and disregard of Catholic and Protestant Churches towards the tortures of the Jews of Europe, from Spain to Ukraine, is really astounding. It's amazing that this religion which preaches such selfless love, could produce the exact opposite. Cardinal Bertram of Germany fully expresses Christianities response to the Jews: after Hitler was reported dead, Cardinal Bertram scheduled a requiem mass for the fuhrer.

Just imagine. He had been told throughout the war, from 1941 onwards, that the Nazis were massacring Jews; in 1943, he became aware of their extermination program.. 2 years later, Hitler dies, and he scheduled a requiem mass for the man he knew was the single greatest mass murderer in human history.