Israel /= Jew

reply to post by SLAYER69

Yes, but some members openly admit to being anti-Semitic and dont care who knows it. Six of one half dozen of another,

I cannot help what other members say. I'm trying to focus on the fact that the goverment of Israel does not automatically apply to Jews.

reply to post by beezzer

 

It's not really about hate. Sometimes just a discussion about Israel makes some people knee-jerk the "you hate Jews" response.

I'm trying to combat that.

reply to post by MrDesolate

I think anyone who puts forth the argument that anti Israel doesn't equal anti Jew is looking for an excuse to be anti Jew without being called antisemitic, and I think anyone who finds anything at all humorous about Hitler has a strange sense of propriety. Especially when used together. You picked it, you wear it.

So you think that I am anti-Jew just because I brought this issue to light? Doesn't that sort of prove my point?

And yes, Hitler playing a banjo is funny. If you look at my signiture I have the rest of the "dictator band".

Lighten up.....

Originally posted by sheepslayer247

reply to post by beezzer

 

It's not really about hate. Sometimes just a discussion about Israel makes some people knee-jerk the "you hate Jews" response.

I'm trying to combat that.

I once left a site where I was well established due to anti-semitism prevalent in that area.

I don't want to leave ATS so I will call OUT the where I see it.

Some criticism may be valid, but how do you distinguish between that and the thinly veiled hatred?

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
So you think that I am anti-Jew just because I brought this issue to light?

No, I think anyone who sports a Hitler avatar and knocks Israel is getting the Albert Schweitzer Humanitarian Award.

reply to post by sheepslayer247


Right but as many here like to toss about Iran has a large Jewish population but when you think of Iran one thinks of a Persian Islamic Republic eh?

reply to post by beezzer

Please do call it out! I have no sympathy for people that blindly hate other people for no good reason at all.

Some criticism may be valid, but how do you distinguish between that and the thinly veiled hatred?

Thar's a good question and I cannot honestly answer that. It is up to each individual to decide when that line is crossed.

But we should be able to say "Hey, I think Israel is putting the shaft to the Palestinians" without it being misconstrued as an anti-Jew statement. Because in my mind, the Jewish religion has nothing to do with it.

reply to post by MrDesolate

No, I think anyone who sports a Hitler avatar and knocks Israel is getting the Albert Schweitzer Humanitarian Award.

If you cannot see the humor in my avatar than I apologize and completely disagree with your rash judgement.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by sheepslayer247

 

Right but as many here like to toss about Iran has a large Jewish population but when you think of Iran one thinks of a Persian Islamic Republic eh?

Some do, yes. I disagree with that as well. It does not represent the diversity of it's population.

Edit to add: If someone disagrees with Iran, they are not automatically called anti-Muslim....are they?

Originally posted by MrDesolate
reply to post by sheepslayer247

 

I think anyone who puts forth the argument that anti Israel doesn't equal anti Jew is looking for an excuse to be anti Jew without being called antisemitic, and I think anyone who finds anything at all humorous about Hitler has a strange sense of propriety. Especially when used together. You picked it, you wear it.

I think anyone who puts forth the argument that anti Israel doesn't equal anti Jew is looking for an excuse to be anti Jew without being called antisemitic,

Bingo

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I find it disturbing that you're a moderator.

Can you provide the relevant scientific research that concludes that Jews are a race of people as opposed to a group of like minded religious folk?

Firstly, it's already been shown that most Jews share the same genetic type. From the Ashknezim of Europe to the Sephardim of North Africa and the Middle East

Link

I complain about my government all the time, does that mean I'm racist against white people because most of them are caucasian?

Are you serious?

Jews have been persecuted since Greco-Roman times. Throughout the Christian ages - the Byzantium, Catholic church, protestants; stuffed into ghettos all across Europe. In Arab lands, the Jews likewise were subjected to humiliating treatment from their 'superiors' - the Muslims.

And then you have the Cossak persecutions, the Czarist persecutions, all sorts of lies being created and repeated in order to create and cultivate feelings of anti-semitism - or simple Jew hatred - amongst the masses.

Jew hatred has passed through several different phases; it has gone from purely religious hatred, to racial hatred (the Nazis), and today it has advanced to nation hatred: hatred of the same people, but towards it's national apparatus.

It is the SAME Jew hatred.

What do you think the earlier libels were based upon? Simple unreasoned dislike? No. It was a reasoned hatred of what the Jews stood for; Just as the Nazi's recognized that the Jews stood for a culture and society that was foreign to the Aryan tradition; that was an accretion to the Germanic pagan religion of olden times.

And today, again, we see the same dialectic coming to the fore; why do people hate Israel? Why do YOU most likely hate Israel? Because it represents the ethnic-nation state; it stands for differentiation amongst a greater unity. While the world is moving towards a universalist world state, the Jewish state stubbornly holds to the 'nation state' which in Tony Judt's terms, is an 'anachronism'.

THATS why people hate Jews. They are iconoclasts of the world. But iconcolastic in a GOOD and constructive way.

However, to many people, particularly the elite, they stand for a metaphysical principle towards division, towards emphasis on 'this world' on justice, on morality, etc.

I'm sure you know what I mean.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Really?

Are you guys really going to believe that just because I am willing to say that ridicule of the Israeli state does not mean someone is anti-Jew...that I am anti-Jew, and that my avatar plays a pivotal role in that conclusion?



What if my avatar was a breakdancing puppy dog? Would you say the same thing?

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

Really?

Are you guys really going to believe that just because I am willing to say that ridicule of the Israeli state does not mean someone is anti-Jew, and that my avatar plays a pivotal role in that conclusion?

What if my avatar was a breakdancing puppy dog? Would you say the same thing?

I personally think you avi mocks Hitler, so I'm cool with it.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247

Edit to add: If someone disagrees with Iran, they are not automatically called anti-Muslim....are they?

Islamaphobe

And yes, many who are critical of Iran are often called that or Warmonger simply because we openly discuss Iran's dirty laundry just like those who talk about Israels and the US's dirty laundry.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by sheepslayer247

Edit to add: If someone disagrees with Iran, they are not automatically called anti-Muslim....are they?

Islamaphobe

And yes, many who are critical of Iran are often called that or Warmonger simply because we openly discuss Iran's dirty laundry just like those who talk about Israels and the US's dirty laundry.

BINGO! Got it in one, SLAYER!

But, that being said, it does give pause to thought. . . . .

reply to post by beezzer


Exactly...thank you!

reply to post by SLAYER69

And yes, many who are critical of Iran are often called that or Warmonger simply because we openly discuss Iran's dirty laundry just like those who talk about Israels and the US's dirty laundry.

I agree. The ridicule of the nation's actions should not be equated to ridicule of the religion of it's people. Islamaphobes and anti-Semites both should be outed from the conversation so a real discussion can take place about the corresponding governments actions.

Here is a timeline of Jewish persecution, I am posting this to show how rooted in the psyche of mankind this hatred of the Jews is.

Timeline of antisemitism
en.wikipedia.org...
www.simpletoremember.com...

History of the Jews in Europe
en.wikipedia.org...

As far as them being a race, apparently many antisemites saw them as a race, Hitler saw them as a race.

What difference does that make?

A Genetic History of the Jewish People

In his new book, “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People,” Harry Ostrer, a medical geneticist and professor at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, claims that Jews are different, and the differences are not just skin deep. Jews exhibit, he writes, a distinctive genetic signature. Considering that the Nazis tried to exterminate Jews based on their supposed racial distinctiveness, such a conclusion might be a cause for concern. But Ostrer sees it as central to Jewish identity.

“Who is a Jew?” has been a poignant question for Jews throughout our history. It evokes a complex tapestry of Jewish identity made up of different strains of religious beliefs, cultural practices and blood ties to ancient Palestine and modern Israel. But the question, with its echoes of genetic determinism, also has a dark side.

Geneticists have long been aware that certain diseases, from breast cancer to Tay-Sachs, disproportionately affect Jews. Ostrer, who is also director of genetic and genomic testing at Montefiore Medical Center, goes further, maintaining that Jews are a homogeneous group with all the scientific trappings of what we used to call a “race.”

Read more: forward.com...

The new genetics is demonstrating that most Jews share genetic links. Any two Ashkenazi Jews whose great grandparents lived in Central and Eastern Europe before the war share enough genes to qualify as fourth to fifth cousins. Any two Iranian Jews whose forebears lived in Iran from the time of Cyrus the Great to the fall of the Shah share enough genes to qualify as third cousins. The Jews of Djeba, who come from an island off the coast of Tunisia that once had a majority Jewish population, all qualify as first cousins once-removed. The links don't stop within each group. Rather, they cross most Jewish groups so any Ashkenazi and Iranian Jewish duo is more likely to share genes with each other than they are with their non-Jewish neighbors. Jews have characterized themselves as a people, but with these genetic links, they are more like an extended family.
www.huffingtonpost.com...
The new genetics is also showing that the history of the Jews can be seen in their genes.

I don't know why I always fight this battle?
Maybe because they are surround buy so many nations that seek their destruction.
And always have been.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
I don't know why I always fight this battle?
Maybe because they are surround buy so many nations that seek their destruction.
And always have been.

This is why I think much differentiates from other (for example anti-islam, anti-christian) attacks.

The jewish people have been vilified for millenia.

If anyone or any race, or any people or any culture needs a damned break, it's the jews.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Can you provide the relevant scientific research that concludes that Jews are a race of people as opposed to a group of like minded religious folk?

He didn't say they were a race of people .. he said 'ethnicity'. Which is correct.

Originally posted by dontreally
They're both an ethnicity and a religion.

Hispanics are an ethnicity .. not a race.
Jews are an ethnicity .. not a race.
Black, White, and Asian are races .. not ethnicities.

Although some folks do call Jews a 'race' .. and that's incorrect.

reply to post by dontreally

I find it disturbing that you're a moderator.

I find it disturbing that you would make an adhom attack against my character by using my mod status. I suggest you keep your petty jabs to yourself, since they have no place in a proper conversation.

Firstly, it's already been shown that most Jews share the same genetic type. From the Ashknezim of Europe to the Sephardim of North Africa and the Middle East

My question was not that they shared genetic types, my question was are these genetic types UNIQUE in the sense that it can be viewed as a 'race'.

As for your comments regarding the history of Jewish persecution; I can point to Muslims, Christians and really every other long lasting religion and show that they too, were persecuted throughout time. So any criticism of them means that I just flat out hate all of them right?

And today, again, we see the same dialectic coming to the fore; why do people hate Israel? Why do YOU most likely hate Israel? Because it represents the ethnic-nation state; it stands for differentiation amongst a greater unity. While the world is moving towards a universalist world state, the Jewish state stubbornly holds to the 'nation state' which in Tony Judt's terms, is an 'anachronism'.

Hate is such a strong word. I don't hate anybody, Israel included. I do however take GREAT issue with their government and policies. Considering they own and operate an open aired prison. The list of Human Rights violations is as tall as the empire state building. You can justify murder however you see fit, in the end it's still murder.

Not that Palestinians or the arba nations surrounding Israel aren't equally to blame or anything, but Israel has the power to make things better. They simply chose to not do so, or seem to choose not to do so.

So why do I hate Jews? I don't. I love Jewish people, have a few in my extended family and know quite a few as personal friends. They are all great people.

The nation of Israel is also a wonderful place. It's present government not included.

~Tenth

ETA: Please ignore the first part regarding the race issue, I've been corrected above. I thought you'd listed them as a race, not an ethnicity. I do agree with that.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Some people hate Jews and there is a long history of it. I do not disagree with that.

But that really has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

I'm saying that we should be able to separate religion from government when talking about Israel, or any other country for that matter.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
I'm saying that we should be able to separate religion from government when talking about Israel, or any other country for that matter.

I dunno .... unless those countries are run by secular rule of law, it's hard to do.
I wish ALL countries ran by secular rule of law. But the sad truth is .. many do not.
It would be impossible to separate Islam from the government of Iran .. they invoke it so much.
Likewise .. I don't think you can separate the Jewish faith from Israeli government.
They BANK on it. They remind all the Christians around the world of their Judeo-Christian roots.
And since it says in the Christian bible that God will smite any who forsake the Jews .....
well ... you get the idea. I think they (Israel) plays up the religion aspect so they can keep
the USA Christians on the hook for them. (IMHO)

Personally I don't think discussion of religion should be allowed on the forum anymore if just for the fact people are reading these forum by the thousands, that never post, and I wouldn't want a message I posted to cause anyone to come to harm.

Say you continually trash Israel on these forums or Christianity, or Islam , and it is causing trouble how much influence do these post have?

Whether you want to believe it or not , and this is from my experience on another forum, people seek out these forum to spread discord.

I have seen it first hand, and I found their forum where they planned their next move.

I couldn't for the life of me understand where all theses people where coming from and spamming the board with anti christian topics, it eventually became apparent they had an agenda,