Say a phrase, and you are saved...

reply to post by jhill76


WOW! You are really good at proclaiming you own self worth. Maybe you should start your own religion? (In your mom's basement.)

reply to post by aardvark888


Says who? Himself? Give me a break! He's was one of the ones who killed Jesus and his followers. You are such a tool, being used every which way and never knowing it.

Wake up and take your blinders off.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


In Romans 13 Paul is saying the time is at hand for salvation in Christ. Christ warned against people saying His return to Earth was at hand. Apples to oranges friend. Paul never said the return of the Lord was at hand.

Originally posted by aardvark888
reply to post by jhill76

 

WOW! You are really good at proclaiming you own self worth. Maybe you should start your own religion? (In your mom's basement.)

Comments like these help reinforce why man is in the predicament they are currently in as of now.

Originally posted by jhill76

Originally posted by aardvark888
reply to post by jhill76

 

WOW! You are really good at proclaiming you own self worth. Maybe you should start your own religion? (In your mom's basement.)

Comments like these help reinforce why man is in the predicament they are currently in as of now.

Now now, no fingerpointing Mr. Angel.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So there was a date set in place that heralded in salvation? Why did Jesus never mention this date, much less salvation? What gives Paul the authority to say when the time is?

Are you taking a Romans word for it? You realize they are the ones who killed his followers right? What makes you truly believe Paul got a visit from Jesus telling him this stuff? Is it called blind faith or something else?

Could you address the other one I posted? Or are you going to ignore it?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

Could you please put what he said into context for me?

Sure, here you go:

And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh. (Romans 13:11-14)

See, putting things into context means looking at them where they are in the text to find the actual meaning, not the "this is what I want it to say" meaning.

In context, it is clear that Paul is calling people to come to Christianity, to act as they are supposed to act, and to do so now, rather than later. Is there any statement there about Christ coming again? Or about the end of the world? No, there is not, just an exhortation to not delay. After all, whether Christ comes tomorrow or in two thousand years, who is to say you won't drop dead tomorrow? Or today?

You could also have saved yourself the trouble of asking by actually reading what Paul wrote on the subject, rather than pulling untrue claims off of some anti-Pauline web site. Had you done so, you might have found this:

Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing. (1 Thessalonians 5:1-11)

Get it?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


The letter to the Romans is addressed to Roman Christians, not the pagans. Furthermore it was addressed to them before the Romans began persecuting Christians.

reply to post by adjensen


Yeah I get it but I still don't buy it, what gives Paul the authority to tell people what to believe? Did Jesus ever say anything about salvation? Anything at all?

If not then WHY do you think he would have told someone who previously persecuted and killed his followers about it after he died in a vision that can never be verified ever unless you take a murderers word for it?

Why put so much faith in a murderer? Why not listen to what Jesus said instead of taking a Romans word for it?

He was a murderer, he killed others because they thought a different way than him. How can you take his word for it so easily?

I'm amazed at the ignorance here, no offense.

Are you going to choose to ignore the other verse I listed as well? Seems like you guys like ignoring that one for some reason.

Why did Paul call himself father when Jesus said to do the opposite? Did Jesus suddenly change his mind after being put to death by the Romans only to tell one of his Roman persecutors the opposite in a dream that cannot be verified other than by the one who dreamt it who so happened to be a Roman persecutor of the followers of Jesus?

Are you getting the hint yet? It's pretty obvious by now I would hope.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So Paul had his vision from Jesus and wrote the letters then decided to persecute the Christians afterwards anyways?

That makes lots of sense.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

Yeah I get it but I still don't buy it, what gives Paul the authority to tell people what to believe?

Because he's a teacher, that's what he was trained to do. And he's not telling them what to believe, he's explaining why it makes sense to believe it.

Are you going to choose to ignore the other verse I listed as well? Seems like you guys like ignoring that one for some reason.

Sorry, sometimes I get tired of talking to the walls.

Why did Paul call himself father when Jesus said to do the opposite?

Do you seriously believe that Jesus was banning the use of the word father? That he was concerned with the use of a word?

Or do you think that, maybe, he was just reiterating the whole "there is one God" thing that he'd fairly consistently been talking about?

reply to post by adjensen


He was a teacher who sent followers of Jesus to their deaths, sometimes into the arena to be eaten alive by tigers and other animals. So tell me again, why do you take his word as fact so willingly while ignoring what he did before his "conversion"? His story doesn't seem the least bit suspicious to you?

So Jesus saying you should not call anyone father has nothing to do with Paul calling himself father through the gospel? Tell me how that works.

Stop deflecting and actually try to answer the questions and read more into them.

I have two cents to throw into the discussion. I believe in God. I believe that religion has taken something beautiful and twisted into a control mechanism. If you knew you could be the biggest SOB on the planet and say some words and be forgiven, you have given up all personal responsibility for the wrong you have done. That is a lot easier than trying to make amends or heaven forbid don't do the wrong thing in the first place. So now you have a planet of SOBs running around doing what ever they want and speaking the magic words and continuing to do what ever the heck they want. I believe in God, but I also believe that what so ever you do to the least of us, you also do to yourself. Believing that anytime I steal from some one else, I am actually stealing from myself makes me not inclined to steal at all.

Peace

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

So Paul had his vision from Jesus and wrote the letters then decided to persecute the Christians afterwards anyways?

That makes lots of sense.

Come on bro, you know what a straw man is.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

He was a teacher who sent followers of Jesus to their deaths, sometimes into the arena to be eaten alive by tigers and other animals. So tell me again, why do you take his word as fact so willingly while ignoring what he did before his "conversion"? His story doesn't seem the least bit suspicious to you?

When did Paul have the followers of Jesus thrown to tigers? Did they move the Colosseum to Jerusalem at some point? And what is so suspicious about Paul's conversion story? His mission was to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles, and that's what he did -- in spite of his past, not because of it. Among other things, he serves as a great example of someone who vehemently hated Christianity, but when he met Christ, he became his biggest fan, eventually dying for his faith in Christ (of all the disciples, Paul is the one who could have simply walked away, when arrested, by saying that the Emperor was God.)

Hmm.... maybe that answers your other question, as well, no?

So Jesus saying you should not call anyone father has nothing to do with Paul calling himself father through the gospel? Tell me how that works.

It works, because, again, he isn't banning the use of the word "father". Why do you think he would ban the use of that word? Does the Fifth Commandment become "Honour your (silence) and mother"? Logically, Christ is telling people that there is one God, he's not telling people that they can't use the word father.

Look, people a lot smarter than you and I have been reading, scrutinizing and debating the Bible for almost two thousand years. Do you honestly believe that you, at, what 23 years of age, who has said that he hasn't read the Bible, have discovered some terrible flaw, previously unknown, in the Bible that's going to turn people away from Christianity?

You demand answers, but don't ever seem to listen or learn from them, so why do you keep asking?

if people think saying this will save them, they are wrong. save yourselves people stop looking outside of yourself for the answers. i am a god. and so are you. god helps those who realize this. the most high!!

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Actually i think i understand quite well.

You understand something, it is just not the Bible. Probably what you understand is a set of cult beliefs.

Good luck with not commiting any sin since the day you were "saved" till the day you die.

Do you mean: being a human? Sins have been downgraded into minor infractions where my understanding is that the real definition of sin is to be where you have disconnected with God. What that means is your turning your back on God so you can indulge yourself willfully in some sort of evil activity and dis-invite God from coming along.
The other thing you missed was that I do not claim being saved as a past tense event in my life. Salvation is to those who persevere to the end, so the final outcome is not revealed until after this life is over.

I can gaurantee that you've already failed. Making you a better person does not make you a perfect person and if you think you are perfect than you have committed the sins of pride and vanity. A change of spirit perhaps, but not a change of this corrupted body which our spirits war with ceaselessly. Until we're made anew with a new uncorrupted body we will never be perfect. We can see from what happened between John Mark and Paul and their falling out that the Apostles were not perfect either, they still had their own battles.

You are wrong, simply put, it is not the current state of perfection that matters, it the presence of the spirit which works within us making us gradually perfect that matters because it is the same spirit which will raise our bodies from the dead when the proper time comes.

All you do is parrot SDA philosophy for God's honest truth, hows about a little less fingerpointing hm?

I'm sure I have some ideas in my head that come from SDA books I read when I was young, but I have read a lot of other books since, and it just reinforces with me how right those ideas are, that everyone should strive towards perfection. Not to means allowing yourself sinful indulgences to gratify the flesh, all the while dreaming you have nothing to worry about. Such thoughts like those will wind you up in hell, fiery furnace, or what-have-you.

Great topic so far, however I do have one question about salvation in Jesus. What about the ones who have never had the opportunity to even know about Jesus? Do they get a free pass? Or are they judged by who they are despite the lack of faith in Jesus? Or are they condemned out of hand?

It's nice to say you must have faith, but if you never even had the most rudimentary knowledge of the sacrifice made, how can you be held accountable?

reply to post by ObservingTheWorld

Or are they judged by who they are despite the lack of faith in Jesus?

This. Others may disagree and say they will be going to hell, but that is not true.

reply to post by ObservingTheWorld

Well, I can tell you the position of the Catholic Church:

1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized.

www.scborromeo.org...