Say a phrase, and you are saved...

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by borntowatch

 

Your question though is upside down. It doesnt cost a little, it cost Jesus His life. It cost everything.

I know of these things more than you can fathom. My problem lies in the preachers who spew this nonsense, thus is my question. Not, the individual confessing it from the heart.

God can use an ass to correct a man's ways. Ask Balaam.
God is using some asses in the church to do His work.

reply to post by borntowatch

Dear borntowatch,

Thank you very much for your answer and your link. It seems to be a thorough defense of the "once saved, always saved" position, but I haven't read it all yet. I got stopped early in the article by the sentence:

It is the position of CARM that once a person is saved he cannot lose his salvation.

I must admit that I know nothing about Calvanism, but I don't think CARM is a Calvanist only site.

In any event, that position is not held by the Catholic Church. I was basing my statement on my idea that, except for some Orthodox, Christians were either Catholic or Protestant. That may have been a mistake.

Were Christians who turn to Atheism ever Christians? No one on earth can know, except that person and God. Besides, they may convert back. We humans are a fickle lot.

May I commend you for desiring to serve God? For me, I look at the history of the thinkers and Doctors of the Church, and my own natural bent to thought, and enjoy theology. I don't think it's unnatural. Many great Saints have gone without theology at all, perhaps you will be one of them.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by jhill76


They simply repeat what they heard at church. There are two main types of churches. Orthodox, a lot of hell teaching, with lots of rules and regulations, which makes up most of today's modern religion even outside of Christianity. And the all believers go to heaven group.

The one thing that the all believers go to heaven group miss is the repent and be baptized (by the Holy Spirit, not water) and gain assurance to heaven. So they leave out the repent part and say grace covers all sin.
The Orthodox say that yes repent and baptized is one part but you must also live your life a certain way.

What they both fail to realize is to repent is the only way to know forgiveness.

Example: If I break into your house and steal something once you may forgive me. If I break in again you may forgive me again. If I keep breaking into your house and you’re a true "Jesus Freak", you forgive me every time. If I keep breaking into your house do I ever know forgiveness?

You see I keep committing the crime, and even though you are casting love on your enemy it doesn’t mean he receives it. Only the man who stops stealing from you proves that he received forgiveness.

So it is imperative that one repents, which means vows to never sin again, and picks up his cross. Accepts that there is punishment ahead for his acts that were against love, against the son's message. Anti Christ?

It is not until you trust in the words of the son and repent that you can receive the blessing of Grace. You may be forgiven but you have yet to learn forgiveness. Allow yourself to learn forgiveness and you will learn how to love.

Admit your sins to God, anything you did that goes against your own nature, commit to end them, whatever they are, and believe that you have been forgiven, because you have.

Special Note to Christians

The other problem is forgiveness is not to be used as an excuse or escape route. Everyone will be judged equally, God does not play favorites. Each of us is accountable for what we have done and what we do. If you are Christian and still caught in your sins, the path is narrow but it is right in front of you. You believe in the Holy Spirit, than read the book, or listen to it on CD like I do, but read the book that was inspired by him. Let the Holy Spirit guide you. God does not love the pastor more than you; he wants to help you understand too.

reply to post by jhill76


Romans 10:9-10

But salvation comes by faith. Not a magic sentence. All it takes is simple faith as a child.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Funny, i don't remember Jesus saying anything about mouthing any words to be saved. Many times he stressed the importance of believing in him to recieve salvation. In fact, if you had to mouth the words to be saved there'd be alot of deaf/mutes going to sheol and mentally handicaped folks and babies. He reads hearts and minds, if you confess in your heart and repent it's good enough. You acknowledge the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

You have a good point, but I thought Christians believed mouthing words was necessary to be saved.

Paul teaches....

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
-Romans 10:9-10

So what now, are you disagreeing with Paul?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Funny, i don't remember Jesus saying anything about mouthing any words to be saved. Many times he stressed the importance of believing in him to recieve salvation. In fact, if you had to mouth the words to be saved there'd be alot of deaf/mutes going to sheol and mentally handicaped folks and babies. He reads hearts and minds, if you confess in your heart and repent it's good enough. You acknowledge the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

You have a good point, but I thought Christians believed mouthing words was necessary to be saved.

Paul teaches....

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
-Romans 10:9-10

So what now, are you disagreeing with Paul?

edit on 10-9-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Paul isn't talking about gentiles here, he is talking about Israel as the context says.

Romans 10:1-13

1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

What sins did Israel do in which they need to confess? Abraham was saved by his faith when he called on the name of God, but a new name was given whereby all people must be saved, and they refused him. They have to acknowledge their offense (confess) against Jesus and then welcome him back (into their hearts):

Matthew 23:37-39 (Jesus speaking)

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by jhill76

 

I think this line of thinking comes from Paul...

Faith saves people with help from the "grace" of God... Which seems to open the idea of having the golden ticket to sin. Also this "grace" was nothing taught by Jesus...

Either way i believe everyone is "saved" so to speak... religious "authorities" use fear tactics to scare people into their cults. "IF you're not with us... you'll burn"

I don't buy it

But if they get the physical grace of god that is a part of Gnosis then they are saved. But that do not mean they do not have to fix all the things they have caused. Karma always have to be repaired and you have to take responsability of your actions. But if you get this grace then you will know it and never be the same again. I do not mind Hitler being in heaven and not suffering as long as he has learned his lesson and behave in heaven and is fixing what he have caused.

reply to post by apushforenlightment

I do not mind Hitler being in heaven and not suffering as long as he has learned his lesson and behave in heaven and is fixing what he have caused.

This is very interesting. This is the kind of love Father has for all. Man on the other hand, cannot see the bigger picture.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Funny, i don't remember Jesus saying anything about mouthing any words to be saved. Many times he stressed the importance of believing in him to recieve salvation. In fact, if you had to mouth the words to be saved there'd be alot of deaf/mutes going to sheol and mentally handicaped folks and babies. He reads hearts and minds, if you confess in your heart and repent it's good enough. You acknowledge the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

You have a good point, but I thought Christians believed mouthing words was necessary to be saved.

Paul teaches....

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
-Romans 10:9-10

So what now, are you disagreeing with Paul?

edit on 10-9-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

The first part of that verse belief/faith is the catalyst. Jesus also said that people who proclaimed Him to others He would proclaim to His Father and those who denied Him to others He would deny them. So vocalizing o.e's faith is important, but it's a secondary thing, not the first cause of having saving faith in Him.

The root question in mind is this -- "If I am saved today, what is to say that I will go to heaven when I die?" and represents a psychological tension.

It is manifested in three different ways.

For Catholics, the question is whether they will die in a state of unresolved mortal sin.

For Arminians, the question is whether they will turn against their faith at some point.

For Reformed (Calvinists,) the question is whether a person is one of the Elect, predestined for salvation.

The resolution of it for Catholics is to avoid sin, and to go to confession if one sins (as everyone will.) For Arminians, it is to maintain a relationship with Christ and to strive for sanctification. For Calvinists, it is to have had a validated conversion experience.

Of all three, only the last represents a "saved once, saved always" perspective, because the conversion experience only happens if one is, in fact, one of the Elect. Unfortunately, it is invalidated, a bit, but the observation that some Calvinists have, in fact, turned against the faith, in which case the interpretation is that "it wasn't really a valid conversion experience."

However, in none of these does salvation represent a "magical phrase" that can be uttered, regardless of belief, to be saved. That's the failing of Pascal's Wager -- logically, it makes sense, practically, it doesn't, because a disingenuous faith is no faith at all.

reply to post by jhill76


I find it very interesting that someone metioned hitler here. I just mentioned him on one of your other threads. I am sure we all would agree that hitler committed some seriously heinous acts. But wasn't this also part of gods plan? This plan is well beyond the understanding of most people.

As far as the topic of this thread. Just saying the words is not enough. Believing in and having faith in jesus and/or god is not enough. But this is not a requirement either. Neither is confessing all of your sins and dying "pure". We were given life which in itself is a very precious gift. I think the basis of the teachings of Jesus is to really learn to appreciate the value of life and to appreciate the sacrifices he made.

Imagine if those trying to "save" us actually understood these teachings. This isn't a game where the one who gets the most people to say the right words gets the biggest prize. It is about having a real impact on the way one thinks and feels about themselves. The way they feel about and relate to their fellow man. The way they relate to and understand jesus, god and those things that are beyond us.

reply to post by crazyguy2012

Imagine if those trying to "save" us actually understood these teachings. This isn't a game where the one who gets the most people to say the right words gets the biggest prize.

I honestly think, some actually believe this. Like some hidden quota or something?

reply to post by adjensen

The resolution of it for Catholics is to avoid sin, and to go to confession if one sins (as everyone will.) For Arminians, it is to maintain a relationship with Christ and to strive for sanctification. For Calvinists, it is to have had a validated conversion experience.

Of all three, only the last represents a "saved once, saved always" perspective, because the conversion experience only happens if one is, in fact, one of the Elect. Unfortunately, it is invalidated, a bit, but the observation that some Calvinists have, in fact, turned against the faith, in which case the interpretation is that "it wasn't really a valid conversion experience."

You can't avoid commiting sins, you try to avoid one and end up committing another, Israel ran into the same problem and that's why they failed, the law is perfect and an imperfect and flawed people cannot keep it. It's not a matter of our physical bodies, it's a matter of knowledge. The trade Adam made was he gained himself and us all knowledge at the exchange of our immortality. God realized the nature of the dilemma we faced right when it happened which is why he devised a plan to remedy it and that was the second covenant, but in order for people to accept the second covenant (and Israel) he had to make them and us all realize just how flawed we really are and that without him we are doomed, because he is the only one who can keep his own laws and do it for us all.

As for the once saved always saved doctrine, it's based on salvation not coming by anything we have done by works. That it is a gift of love free of merit that we did not deserve and could never earn and because we never merited salvation to begin with, it will not be taken away on our merits. A gift is not a gift if it comes with conditions, such as the conditional covenants God made with Israel prior to the second covenant. Sin has taken it's toll on humanity and we are now so debased and depraved that without his grace covenant, not a one of us will evade the second death. We have thrown ourselves totally on his mercy in the hopes that his grace is sufficient. So we believe and have hope in our faith in the assurances of Messiah's promises that if we believe in him we will not suffer the second death, because Jesus said he would never turn away those who come to him.

reply to post by jhill76


It seems like that is the goal of most religions. They treat it like its an election. "My god is the best god because more people voted for my god than your god"

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


But surely you're not saying that accepting the grace of salvation is a license to sin? And if you're not, then what's the harm in actively trying NOT to sin?

A lot of these matters come down to semantics and rationalization, but if the response to someone who, after having what was deemed a valid conversion experience, went out and killed a bunch of people is "well, that means it wasn't a valid experience," there isn't a lot of credence that we can put into the claim, is there?

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

But surely you're not saying that accepting the grace of salvation is a license to sin? And if you're not, then what's the harm in actively trying NOT to sin?

A lot of these matters come down to semantics and rationalization, but if the response to someone who, after having what was deemed a valid conversion experience, went out and killed a bunch of people is "well, that means it wasn't a valid experience," there isn't a lot of credence that we can put into the claim, is there?

It's not a license for licentiousness, but we have to recognize that even with a changed spirit we are still subject to temptation in these corrupted forms and we do fall and sometimes we fall alot and fall hard, but the important thing is to not throw in the towel, but keep moving forward in the assurance that we will be forgiven if we do stumble. There will be a great change in a person's spirit when they have a true salvation experience and they will not want to murder 5 people and i speak this from my own experience. Even the thought of harming another person is horrifying to me and it's been a major issue as to why i do not own firearms, taking a life is worse than stealing, because you can't return what you've stolen, it's not something you can ever undo and it's a line i would find very difficult to cross and is why i didn't last long in law enforcement.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

But surely you're not saying that accepting the grace of salvation is a license to sin? And if you're not, then what's the harm in actively trying NOT to sin?

A lot of these matters come down to semantics and rationalization, but if the response to someone who, after having what was deemed a valid conversion experience, went out and killed a bunch of people is "well, that means it wasn't a valid experience," there isn't a lot of credence that we can put into the claim, is there?

The Holy Spirit changes the redeemed person to not desire and act upon temptations to sin. Philippians 2:13.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

But surely you're not saying that accepting the grace of salvation is a license to sin? And if you're not, then what's the harm in actively trying NOT to sin?

A lot of these matters come down to semantics and rationalization, but if the response to someone who, after having what was deemed a valid conversion experience, went out and killed a bunch of people is "well, that means it wasn't a valid experience," there isn't a lot of credence that we can put into the claim, is there?

It's not a license for licentiousness, but we have to recognize that even with a changed spirit we are still subject to temptation in these corrupted forms and we do fall and sometimes we fall alot and fall hard, but the important thing is to not throw in the towel, but keep moving forward in the assurance that we will be forgiven if we do stumble. There will be a great change in a person's spirit when they have a true salvation experience and they will not want to murder 5 people and i speak this from my own experience. Even the thought of harming another person is horrifying to me and it's been a major issue as to why i do not own firearms, taking a life is worse than stealing, because you can't return what you've stolen, it's not something you can ever undo and it's a line i would find very difficult to cross and is why i didn't last long in law enforcement.

The Spirit quickened Proverbs 24:16 when reading your post. The just man falls, yet keeps getting back up to continue the race, the wicked man falls and stays down.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Yes, I agree with you 100% -- the act of salvation changes us, for the better, but we still incline to sin. But therein lies the issue with "saved by faith alone" and "your works don't matter."

Let's use Jimmy Swaggart as a less violent, and actual, example of the issue.

Sometime back in the Fifties or whenever, Jimmy welcomes Christ into his life, and he is "saved". Let's assume, for lack of any other evidence, that Jimmy did his best to follow Christ, bring others to him, and so forth, up to, oh, 1987 or so.

Now, let's pretend that Jimmy has a heart attack on 31 December, 1987. Does he go to heaven? I think most would say that he probably would (though it is, of course, left up to God, not us, but it seems a reasonable conclusion.) By both the "works don't matter" and "works do matter" points of view, Jimmy's doing alright.

Okay, now let's move on to February 1988, when Jimmy is photographed leaving a hotel room with a prostitute, after engaging in a lewd, sinful act. And lets say that, while he was leaving said room, he'd had a heart attack and died. Does he go to heaven? Here, we must diverge -- one who says "works do matter" would tend towards saying "no", one who says "works do not matter" would have to, it seems to me, say "yes, he'd go to heaven."

But, if one answers "yes", isn't that a bit like saying that salvation is a license to sin? He'd go to heaven before committing that sin, and he'd go to heaven immediately after committing that sin, so what role does the commission of sin play? In a practical sense, none, it would seem.

Now, fast forward to 21 February, 1988 and Jimmy's famous "I have sinned" speech.

I have sinned against You, my Lord, and I would ask that Your Precious Blood would wash and cleanse every stain until it is in the seas of God's forgiveness, not to be remembered against me anymore.

Setting aside the question of whether he was truly sorry or not (and what he was "sorry" for,) if Jimmy had dropped dead immediately after uttering that line, would he go to heaven? The "works do matter" bunch would be back toward saying "yes, so long as he was really sorry," while the "works do not matter" crowd, which included Swaggart himself, would say that his confession and apology to the Lord was a waste of time, because it makes no difference to God, and the answer to the question had never changed since the Fifties -- he'd be in heaven.

Just some food for thought -- I don't really have any good answers, personally, being trapped in the "no man's land" between Catholicism and Arminianism, lol.

reply to post by adjensen


IMHO it's vital to start and end any doctrine with Christ. Did He say He would cast anyone out who called upon His Name? That's why there exists the doctrine of rewards for faithfulness. Someone could potentially lose all their rewards, but they are still saved. I can't fathom why anyone would try and lose rewards, but any doctrine cannot nullify what Christ said. He said He will in no wise cast out any man who called upon His Name. All saved people will enter heaven, but not all those will inherit heaven. Justification only accounts for the Penalty for sin, Hell. One's standing in Heaven and the earning or loss of rewards is based on faithfulness of service to the Lord and the motive for serving Him. Paul talks about the misfortune of people who will lose all rewards for lack of works or ones "burnt up" because they were done with a perverse motive, but they are still saved people. They won't go to Hell because of Christ's sacrifice, but they have no rewards to show for their service.