Arizona pastor jailed for home bible study

Originally posted by cassiper
No one can tell me where to practice what I believe. If the people at the bible study showed up they assume responsibility for themselves. Government wants religion out of government so they should stay away from our religion too!

Can you get anymore arrogant?

ME ME ME ME - - - screw the possibility of a roof caving in (just an example).

I swear - - say God to some people - - they lose their brain.

reply to post by LIGHTvsDARK

Originally posted by LIGHTvsDARK
OOOPS, I broke the BH barrier! She cracked a little bit, she has allowed herself to be persuaded even just a little bit.

I don't know why you say that. I am not persuaded in the least. I'm not AT ALL saying all government regulations are good. That was your incorrect assumption. But you haven't asked. You just made your assumptions and went after me like you knew my position on government corruption, just because of my opinion on this one issue.

I grew up on a farm, too. Quite a while ago as well (1950s). Different time, different laws, different zoning. Different world. I also milked the "cows", mucked the stalls and sheared the sheep. I don't know if the gov't would have approved, but they didn't know about it. If they had, they may have stepped in.

Of course not, HELL, you people whine about Newt saying that kids would do well to be janitors. GEEZ!

"You people"? Yeah, you've got me all figured out, don't you? Problem is, most of what you think is probably totally wrong. But keep assuming. Keep putting people in one "camp" or the other, based on ONE opinion... I will remember this discussion, LightvsDark.

And if you want to "hold onto this" like a dog with a bone, go for it. I can leave the discussion anytime.

reply to post by Annee


Not arrogant. I'm just supposed to have freedom of religion in this country.
People who showed up to the bible study were there willingly.

Originally posted by cassiper
reply to post by Annee

 

Not arrogant. I'm just supposed to have freedom of religion in this country.
People who showed up to the bible study were there willingly.

You do have freedom of religion.

You don't have freedom to endanger people in the name of God.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I found his criminal and civil history which carries right into 2011, to be quite interesting too. It's always fascinating when people who make themselves symbols have backgrounds to make you wonder why they wouldn't want to be the last one held to public scrutiny?

You might also find Sam Childers criminal and civil history fascinating too. Known as the Machine Gun Preacer, Childers also built churches, although he probably didn't have to worry about building codes. Childers found himself with bigger problems.

It is to be expected that criminals transformed by the New Testament embrace a public image that reveals this transformation. Paul, after all, was a killer of Christians before his transformation.

Fair point and when I first came across his serious and violent criminal history from the 1990's, I discarded the idea of mentioning it. Many Christians I have met are converts from a rough life leading to their Faith. I respect that and wouldn't use it against a person.

Then I noticed it wasn't limited to the years prior to his 'conversion' but seems to carry in civil terms, right into last year. Hmm....I respect sincere transformations in life and certainly believe they happen. Believe me..I have no doubt on that. I just don't think he's all that sincere given his own words and deeds into the recent past.

Originally posted by links234
I'm not religious so can someone who is explain what the difference between 'bible study' and 'worship' are? This guy, essentially, built a church on his property and had 80 people show up twice a week. If I were his neighbor that would bug the hell out of me and I would complain too.

7601 N 31st Ave, Phoenix, AZ is the address of this place.

Bible study is people get together to discuss scripture and it's application, there is no singing, or worshipping (in my group anyway) or playing of instruments or music. We just gather around to talk about scripture and what it may mean. We're not being loud and disturbing, unless you (not speaking to you directly) consider 5-6 cars in your neighbors driveway disturbing, in which case i'd have to tell you to mind your own business.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Yes, I was wrong to use a fallacious argument of YOU PEOPLE, I should have used Obama's fallacious argument "Some People" and YOU would have been completely in agreement?

RIGHT?

By the way, if I ever use YOU PEOPLE in the future, it is in reference to leftists. Would not want BH to attempt to use it as the racist card. By the way, you know what happens when you print TRILLIONS of dollars or TRILLIONS of race cards?

They become worthless. By the way, got any other obfuscations to throw my way?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


God bless ya, Wrabbit!

Hey, I think you got lumped in with the "lefties". ...

Originally posted by LIGHTvsDARK
All the lefties are right, he should have gotten his proper licenses,

Here I go again...when I was growing up, decades ago, before all this "born again" got big time, if someone heard the Lord calling them to preach, s/he would rent a hole-in-the-wall business and start a congregation. Still happens in my small town, to some extent.

As far as the nutters who stood on street corners preaching (yelling) to "repent because the end of the world is near", well, we just walked around them.

Now, since religion is big business, complete with tax write offs and income disguised as tithes, I become suspicious of some "preachers." And it wouldn't surprise me if someone with a criminal background sets up church/business as a preacher/charlatan.

Originally posted by LIGHTvsDARK
POST REMOVED BY STAFF

In my Arizona town - - Christians marched on city hall to stop a Mosque from being built siting building codes.

Do you support their action?

reply to post by desert

Here I go again...when I was growing up, decades ago, before all this "born again" got big time, if someone heard the Lord calling them to preach, s/he would rent a hole-in-the-wall business and start a congregation. Still happens in my small town, to some extent.

Oh I hear ya on that. We have a couple converted homes to little chapels here in town and they're in residential neighborhoods. They found ways to make peace and find a balance with the neighbors though, so it works. Our city is also no push over on permits, so I'm sure they got right with that too. Nothing wrong there as I think just about all would agree. Anyone else...Just like you said. We have a few little store/business front churches around town too. I guess they work, since the ones I'm thinking of have been there a long time.

Agreed on being naturally cynical these days of Preachers who deliberately seek to elevate themselves into the public eye. This guy seems to have figured the Martyr role looked promising. By how the media coverage has changed so dramatically, maybe he called it right, too.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by Annee


By the way, multiculturalism is GREAT! When are you going to kill youself so that some cannibals can eat you? LOL, if you did not realize this was satire moron.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
There should be a protest about this kind of violation of civil liberties.

There probably WAS a protest. It was his neighbors protesting!!

How would the cops have ever heard of this little "Bible Study" unless it was causing a trouble for the neighborhood. We have zoning laws for a reason. Suppose it wasn't Bible study, but instead it was just a weekly party on Sunday to drink beer, but it caused traffic jams, blocked driveways, required extra police patrols, and overwhelmed the sewer, water, and electrical systems in the area. Would that be a problem? Of course it would! If his group is too large for a home setting, then he needs to borrow a room at a church, or make other arrangements.

60 days seems like an overly mean sentence, but I have a feeling this is an ongoing problem where the guy has refused to cooperate in the slightest way, so he probably deserves what he is getting.

Once again, this has NOTHING TO DO WITH "BIBLE STUDY" and everything to do with zoning laws, and violating the rights of one's neighbors to peacefully enjoy their own investment and home.

Phoenix City Prosecutor Vicki Hill said in a statement: “It came down to zoning and proper permitting. Anytime you are holding a gathering of people continuously as he does, we have concerns about people being able to exit the facility properly in case there is a fire, and that’s really all this comes down to.”

Fire codes, ingress and egress for the neighborhood, peaceful enjoyment rights of your neighbors, and "continuous" violations of the law. I think he got what he deserved.

So - - here is another take on it - - - NEIGHBORS COMPLAINED.

Let me tell you - - I know from personal experience - - many laws lay dormant until a neighbor files a complaint.

Once a complaint is filed - - - you are then subject to all and any laws pertaining to the situation.

This guy was not having a small gathering for bible study.

When Religious Persecution Isn’t

July 12, 2012 by Jake Meador

According to court documents, this “home Bible study” consisted of “40 to 50″ friends and family members coming to the house. Which, as one can imagine, puts quite a strain on the neighborhood in terms of parking and traffic congestion.

These court minutes also make clear that Salman was treating the building as a church for tax purposes, but refusing to observe the zoning requirements for a church building. And in the video from the first link above at the Christian Post, he presents his “home” as if it is clearly and exclusively a residential building. Even though he presented it to the tax man as a church.

notesfromasmallplace.wordpress.com...

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by links234
I'm not religious so can someone who is explain what the difference between 'bible study' and 'worship' are? This guy, essentially, built a church on his property and had 80 people show up twice a week. If I were his neighbor that would bug the hell out of me and I would complain too.

7601 N 31st Ave, Phoenix, AZ is the address of this place.

Bible study is people get together to discuss scripture and it's application, there is no singing, or worshipping (in my group anyway) or playing of instruments or music. We just gather around to talk about scripture and what it may mean. We're not being loud and disturbing, unless you (not speaking to you directly) consider 5-6 cars in your neighbors driveway disturbing, in which case i'd have to tell you to mind your own business.

edit on 5-8-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

Right. That's the way I remember Bibles studies too. Just a few people. gathered in someones living room, discussing scriptures, with coffee and cupcakes. There was no singing, no passing of the plate and no preacher at a podium, unlike these guys. 80 people, 2 to 3 times a week, that's a lot of people, and the picture shows the guy standing at a podium, preaching. I'll bet there was singing and loud prayer going on too. It isn't fair to the neighbors, who may not want to be hearing singing and praising from their neighbor's back yard!

reply to post by Annee


Well, as long as neighbors COMPLAINED. Geez, I am glad that because neighborse complained that Mosques was stopped.

SHART, nevermind!

Trust me, I'm vomiting a bit when I say this, but...the city was right (mostly). While he shouldn't have been jailed, he was violating city code. Especially in light of below:

Mr. Salman had regular gatherings of up to 80 people. He held services twice a week and collected a tithe at the services. The building that he held services in had a dais and chairs were aligned in a pew formation. He held himself out as a being a church through the media (Harvest Christian Church) and claimed a church status for tax exemption purposes on his property.

Fact Sheet Regarding the Michael Salman Case

He claimed a tax exemption as a church. It's pretty cut and dried that he was running a church and didn't meet city code.

Now I need a shower with bleach.

/TOA