Arizona pastor jailed for home bible study

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

It's better to die in liberty than live under the thumb of government.

I'll take Life and a democratic republic - - - over death - no building codes - and Anarchy.

Ahh yes, that's the remedy for Anarchy..

Constantly changing building codes.

reply to post by fnpmitchreturns


I got to thinking, did I miss the point of your question with my prior post?

Personally, I don't care for the "big business church model". Maybe if Medieval churches reflected the wealth of their earthly government, monarchy, then today's "big business church model" reflects what truly governs everyday life now, big business. And at times, big business seems like a religion.

I was in one church with my-in-laws once, when I felt I was at some corporate presentation, and the baptism was like the opening of a car wash.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Ahh yes, that's the remedy for Anarchy..

Constantly changing building codes.

Did someone change building codes on this guy?

Yes - yes - - I am old enough to remember when houses could just be thrown together. I lived in one. I'm probably still here today because of the holes in the ceiling - - - that made the sparking electrical wires visible.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

his constitutional right to religious freedom. www.examiner.com...
Once again, Christians need to be careful before drawing conclusions about the actions of other believers and the media. They love to fan the flame. Whereas, it is necessary for the believer to be aware of zeitgeist, it is equally important to gather the facts.

This man Salman had been warned. It sounds more like a situation where his neighbors were annoyed with all of the people parking in and around their house.

Still we believers need to stick together and be alert. Recently, I read an article (don't have it with me) where the suggestion was that Christians are less intelligent. Such thoughts that creep into popular culture are dangerous. During the reign of the Soviet Union if a Doctor became a Christian they would remove title and hand said believer a broom. Re: you must be stupid.

edit on 04/18/2012 by Destiny10 because: add quote

edit on 04/18/2012 by Destiny10 because: bad sentencing!

edit on 04/18/2012 by Destiny10 because: ahhh misspelling

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Source

An Arizona pastor was sentanced to 60 days in jail for practicing his beliefs within city limits. This is another low blow to christians, especially within the city of Phoenix. Apparently, it is illegal within the city pf phoenix to have a private home based bible study if it isn't "zoned for church". Now for people of christian faith we all know that a private bible study is nothing like church, we gather together to talk about and discuss scripture, oftentimes in small groups to study God's written Word. So now it's geting to the point where we have to be zoned to even gather together with friends and family just to talk about what we believe in? This is a violation of the right to religious freedom. What next, shall we be required to buy permits and licenses just to have the right to believe what we believe? This is an outrage. This pastor had 12 Pheonix PD officer storm into his home, arrest him and treat him like a criminal, just for teaching God's word in the privacy of his own home? We are seeing the days where the government dictates what people can and cannot believe in and do within the confines of their own private residences. The man wasn't peddling drugs he was holding a study group!

Bible study leader Michael Salman is sitting in jail today after his home was raided earlier this week by more than a dozen Phoenix, Ariz. police officers and city officials. His offense? The city says people aren’t allowed to hold private Bible studies on their own property

[mods place this in the correct forum if this is not it, i felt this the appropriate forum because it is a violation of the Bill of Rights]

edit on 5-8-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

Gooood, all these organized religious crooks need be to thrown in jail. He should keep his believes to himself and not brain wash other people minds with his believes so if he is wrong he will only fool himself and no others.

Originally posted by LIGHTvsDARK
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

Bull# BH, I have read about this case. The city is mad they had too many people parking at this person's house. Are you still here to accentuate the government position in every case possible?

Yeah, Faux News has an agenda! They think people getting together to discuss biblical teaching is just............okay. What the HELL is wrong with you?

What about my freedom to not have heavy traffic and cars parked all over my residential street? I pay property tax and I want the city to keep my quiet...child safe street the way it has been designated by the city. If they want to get together like that all the time, they need to go someplace with a parking lot.

Neighbors have rights too.

Originally posted by seeker1963
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

No, l I'm here to look BEHIND the sensational headlines and find out the other side of the story.

Listen,,,,,I am not a Christian, but I do believe in the Constitution of the United States of America!! You miss the fact that you NEVER see someone arrested for having poker parties, BBQ's etc etc...

Listen, if you have one on a regular basis it is going to be a problem. Your rights end where mine begin. The cops get sick of being called by neighbors only to have to dismiss something that is technically against the law. After a while, they are going to have to enforce it in order to restore the rights of the other people living in that neighborhood.

I see every week of Christians being prosecuted for practicing their religious beliefs! Never see a problem with any other religion....Hmmmm,




Muslims sure are popular and get treated awesome in this country.
This thread is too much.

I want to move into the house across from you and turn it into a Satanic Church. We will meet 4 times a week.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
]

yeeeeeeah ..

and it's ok then to have a party in your house of 25+ people disrupting the peace with loud music but not have a small & quite grp discussion .. ??

oh yea.. that's fair.. !!!

so step off that /sarcastic train and wake up .. !

Originally posted by LIGHTvsDARK
All the lefties are right, he should have gotten his proper licenses, because being licensed is the way to go.
Plus, he should have gotten approval from the government for use of his property, because that is FREEDOM.

What about the approval from his neighbors?


WHY DOES NO ONE CARE ABOUT HIS NEIGHBORS FREEDOM TO KEEP THEIR RESIDENTIAL STREET RESIDENTIAL????????

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

The fact that this started in 2007, before the building was even built, led me to think that this just might be something that FOX is sensationalizing now for political purpose. When you google, just use the man's name, Michael Salman, and you'll get results on page one.

Thanks for shedding some light on this, giving us a little more background on what actually led up to this.

Personally, I would be one of the many neighbors complaining if he built a separate building close to the neighbors property line with that many people coming and going, twice a week.

Yes, we all have the right to have our friends/family over for cook outs, birthdays, or the holidays etc., but that's not what this is about.

Evidently this guy has been dodging going through the proper channels to do this right from the very beginning [2007] and now wants to try to shift the focus on the right to worship in his home. He has the right to worship but he does not have the right to violate city ordinances [nor be a nuisance to his neighbors, which is why many neighborhoods have their own little set of do's and don't rules].

And any one who opens a business, does need to get a permit, specifying the location, which in turn the city officials come and inspect every thing.


To me, sounds like he's trying to scam the city claiming "tax exempt" on his home property.

But if the building is separate from his home, even though it's on his property and it is being used for a business, then he needs to follow the city's codes.

Some neighborhoods do have ordinances regarding "small business" building on a home owners property.
And seems like he would fall under new "codes" to follow for opening a business.

Sounds like a stubborn man who thinks he can out maneuver the city & the neighbors themselves.
And now he's blaming his right to worship in his own home is what got him thrown in jail.

Can't depend on any MSM to tell the truth straight now a days. They are getting real bad about telling half truths [depending on their agenda] or just plain distorting the facts... misinfo.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Doalrite

 

Originally posted by Doalrite
So am I allowed to have my family over on christmas day and pull out the bible and have a bible study with my 30 or so family members?

If your house meets city code, yes.

Lets put it another way...if you have friends come over to your home on a regular basis, say your Son or Daughter have school pals over to hang out, or you have a group of mates who like to come over and have a play around in your garage looking at your car or truck, bike, quad, jet-ski etc..what if your wife has a regular school mums coffee morning day, what if you have a large family...the list is endless.

The neighbours got snotty about the cars parked around their area, nothings else.

I will admit, they should have been more considerate with where they parked, it's not hard to park in a proper car park and walk, get a cab, ride a bicycle, take a bus to the guys house...they could have all got into a hired minibus or coach if it was a regular thing too, so the pastor and his religious chums aren't entirely blameless in this situation, but all he's really guilty of here is not using his brain to see the common sense way to keep his neighbours happy.

They do say love thy neighbour don't they? Maybe he should have gotten off his high horse and considered them a litlle more.

have it on the grass then fxxx the law

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Ahh yes, that's the remedy for Anarchy..

Constantly changing building codes.

Did someone change building codes on this guy?

Yes - yes - - I am old enough to remember when houses could just be thrown together. I lived in one. I'm probably still here today because of the holes in the ceiling - - - that made the sparking electrical wires visible.

No, my point was building codes change like the weather. 99% of the houses are not up to the latest codes. And back in the day as you say men had liberty to do as they pleased with their privately owned property. We don't even have that anymore.

Originally posted by nunyadammm

Originally posted by LIGHTvsDARK
All the lefties are right, he should have gotten his proper licenses, because being licensed is the way to go.
Plus, he should have gotten approval from the government for use of his property, because that is FREEDOM.

What about the approval from his neighbors?


WHY DOES NO ONE CARE ABOUT HIS NEIGHBORS FREEDOM TO KEEP THEIR RESIDENTIAL STREET RESIDENTIAL????????

One person's rights end where another person's rights begin. That's liberty. I should not have a sayso what you do on your property anymore than you should have a sayso what goes on on mine.

The point here is this........pay attention
the guy brought this upon himself.....the city bent over backwards to get him to simpl COMPY WITH FIRE REGS>>>>>>>>end of story....
He built illegally, the city didnt make him tear it down...as they could well have done....
They even said a house of worship is appropriate to any zoning anywhere in the city...!
In other words just make the required fire regs and you are in like flyn....but NO.... HE CHOSE this crap!
Let him and his tribe rot.
JPZ you are the without doubt dryest MFer ive ever met cheers.....

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Yeah.

This one has gone way too far. \

Seriously, I find this very disturbing.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Fact Sheet Regarding the Michael Salman Case

The Michael Salman court case is about building safety. Building and safety codes are in-place to protect the safety and welfare of all of our residents. Some of the relevant facts in this case include:

A house of worship is allowed in any zoning district in the City of Phoenix
The case is about the building that is used for regular assembly does not meet construction and fire code requirements for assembly
All houses of worship in the City of Phoenix must conform to the same codes

Looks like this is another case of someone disobeying city codes, then crying "religious persecution".

Due to the regular, reoccurring high vehicular traffic in this quiet residential neighborhood, neighbors repeatedly complained about the public assembly occurring on his property. Because of the multiple, reoccurring complaints, the City investigated the activity and discovered numerous building code violations primarily related to fire safety standards. Once apprised of these violations, the City could be held liable for not enforcing safety code requirements in the event anyone was injured on the premises. Prior to commencement of prosecution, Mr. Salman was asked, repeatedly, to comply with the safety codes of the City. He chose to ignore these requests for voluntary compliance prior to the commencement of any proceedings.

Below is a summary of the case from the City's Law Department, including quotes from the relevant court judgments.

Watch out for FOX news... There's an agenda there.

So, If they held the meeting outside in the back yard and did not use the building they should not be violating any codes. And what if they all arrived in one or two vans. I would not call that excessive traffic....

reply to post by nedined


Who is the kook? Why do you have the right to tell other people what to believe? If they come there of their own free will because they want to be there then I don't think he is brainwashing them.

You people that get all bent outta shape trying to tell others what they should believe in and what they should think makes me crazy.

Only YOUR beliefs are right and anyone who thinks or feels otherwise are wrong.

I am not religious but I will NOT tell others what to believe. Why are you so threatened by them?

reply to post by mwood


Ahhhh. Thank you . This puts things in an entirety different light now.

It sounds like this is all about the neighbors.
they dont like all the cars on the road!!!

In the human rights they can not do this.

so if they just came for a Drink and a game of cards.
It is total OK????

12 cops burst in! OMG All those people AND the 12 cops.
it could have been another 911.