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Arizona pastor jailed for home bible study

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posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by LIGHTvsDARK
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


Does your house meet city codes? Give us your address so we can come over and inspect your domicile.


Codes change constantly. 99% of the houses don't meet current coding.


EXACTLY! Hell, Obama is going to tack on a 4% tax on every house to help pay for his "healthcare" bill. Hmmm, I wonder if they are going to require the houses be upgraded to meet NEW CODES!? So sick and tired of morons that have no idea what they are talking about.

Hell, they will whine about how expensive houses are becoming while at the same time pushing the government to force us to install fire sprinklers in 100 year old homes.




posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


How is this not a violation of the free exercise clause of the 2nd Amendment?


The Free Exercise Clause is in the First Amendment. The Second Amendment is the right to keep and bear arms.


+7 more 
posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Source

An Arizona pastor was sentanced to 60 days in jail for practicing his beliefs within city limits. This is another low blow to christians, especially within the city of Phoenix



I don't think we're getting the whole story here. This is a twist on the truth.

The fact is, residential neighborhoods have all sorts of rules designed to keep the area "residential" for the enjoyment of the inhabitants. There are even things like cutting the grass, not parking on the street, can't even park on your own driveway overnight, but must put car behind or in garage, overnight, etc..that neighborhoods implement.

So, you have a bunch of people visiting your home "regularly", not a one time party or occasional gathering, but a couple times week, then your neighbors have to put up with the constant traffic of people and cars coming and going, just as if they are living next to an active public business. So, this has nothing to do with Church, the same people could all meet over the internet, and video conference each other with the main computers being in that home, and nobody would bother with the activity. The bodily traffic of people is the issue here, and not the fact that he's running a Church. The Church doesn't get an "exception" from the rule of keeping a quiet neighborhood for the enjoyment of all.

Imagine you have to hear these people chatting and laughing every afternoon as they come and go from the bible sessions, just when you're trying to take your afternoon nap.

You'd think that bible thumping people would at least be honest about the reason they are being denied perpetual assembly in a residential home.


edit on 5-8-2012 by NAMTERCES because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-8-2012 by NAMTERCES because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-8-2012 by NAMTERCES because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


How is this not a violation of the free exercise clause of the 2nd Amendment?


Perhaps you meant the 1st Amendment? The second Amendment is the right to keep and maintain a well regulated militia and the right to keep and bear arms.

This is however an egregious infringement on the right to free exercise of religion and the right to peaceful assembly. This is how the perverts in power will destroy our Bill of Rights, not by an outright ban on the rights themselves but with the creation of so many regulations and permits that it will make it virtually impossible for anyone to obtain the proper permitting or know the proper procedure to engage in these rights.

I am truly ashamed to calk myself American anymore.



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:32 PM
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reply to post by LIGHTvsDARK
 



Originally posted by LIGHTvsDARK
GEEZ! As a site superintendent, building large apartment complexes, if the building inspector came to a site that I built one year after construction, we would be guilty of EVERY code they wrote after construction.


If you don't read the whole story, you won't have the whole story. This started BEFORE he built the "church".

phoenix.gov...



During 2007, Mr. Salman had interaction with the City regarding his attempts to build on his property. The issue revolves around Mr. Salman's assertion that he is building a detached garage, when the building is actually to function as a church. Mr. Salman builds, despite not having a proper permit. On May 1, 2007, he is cited for, and eventually pleads responsible to building without the required permit. (Pleads responsible 7/18/2007)


Read the link above so it will appear that YOU know what you're talking about.

edit on 8/5/2012 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)


+5 more 
posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:33 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Before we get our britches in a bunch, let's look at some of the facts.


Michael Salman, who introduces himself as the pastor from the “Harvest Christian Church” has claimed church status for tax exemption purposes on his property.


He claimed his property is tax exempt because of it's "church status."


However, in the case of Michael Salman and his wife Suzanne, the bible group met in an outside building on the Salman’s property, which sounds more like a church than a casual prayer meeting.

The bible studies were regular meetings of up to 80 people, twice a week and an offering was collected. They also had ample parking on their property so as not to disrupt their neighborhood.


www.theglobaldispatch.com...

They were meeting in a building on the property, outside of the home. So, this wasn't a small prayer meeting in his living room, but a dedicated building. About 80 people met twice a week, and the collection plate passed! They parked on the property too, so for all intense purposes, this guy intended to use and was using his home property as a church, thumbing his nose at the neighborhood and and the zoning laws.

He should have gotten the proper paper work. Jesus doesn't trump the neighbors' rights to a quite neighborhood, or the city's right to enforce zoning laws.



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by seeker1963
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


The Constitution has been overrun by Corporate Law! I will bet money that this city or town is a Corporation. See they get away with doing this by their illegal zoning laws! He wasn't arrested for his religious beliefs (as the corrupt city officials and cops will say) he was arrested for violating a zoning law......Americans will never wake the hell up! I wonder if the cops show up and arrest people for having BBQ's?


A corporate township, that would figure. What i want to know is, what the hell gives them the right to tell someone they can't have a private party to discuss the bible, or anything. It was a small group, we're not talking a huge cathedral with 500 people in it.



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:34 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


JPZ, you grouchy old fart, it is BARE arms!



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by Nucleardiver

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


How is this not a violation of the free exercise clause of the 2nd Amendment?


Perhaps you meant the 1st Amendment? The second Amendment is the right to keep and maintain a well regulated militia and the right to keep and bear arms.

This is however an egregious infringement on the right to free exercise of religion and the right to peaceful assembly. This is how the perverts in power will destroy our Bill of Rights, not by an outright ban on the rights themselves but with the creation of so many regulations and permits that it will make it virtually impossible for anyone to obtain the proper permitting or know the proper procedure to engage in these rights.

I am truly ashamed to calk myself American anymore.


Yeah, you're right. Been discussing the Colorado massacre too much this past month.



edit on 5-8-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 

We often disagree, but on this one...We agree entirely. I've been following this case and he's a nut. He's a nut that became an outright menace to his neighbors by opening a business. By the end, the news reports had him running 2-3 meetings a week with a good number of people. Google even shows how he's all but made his property into a functional business with a parking lot and all.


To give a little perspective, here he was in 2008.


His name is Michael Salman, he is the pastor of Harvest Christian Fellowship, and he's got his northwest Phoenix neighborhood in an uproar.


The real problem is that Salman is intent on building a church in his own backyard — and not just any church, but a 4,200-square-foot building that will sit only a few feet from his neighbor's property line.


The North Glen Square neighborhood is just off the I-17, only blocks from the busy strip malls of Northern and Glendale avenues. But it feels worlds away.

North of Orangewood Avenue, 31st Avenue narrows to two tiny lanes. Here, the houses are mostly 30-year-old ranches with a lived-in grace, some of them quite large. (Michael Salman's, for example, is a sprawling 3,147 square feet, with a five-car garage.)
Source

(^^ He's obviously mellowed a bit as he learned the art of public relations)

It's not often I see the media really turn full behind supporting someone doing anything religious at all, but it figures that it would be the time it's making a Church in the middle of a quiet residential neighborhood and driving his neighbors to the edge. Like the city says, religion has nothing to do with it. I wouldn't care if he were MY neighbor. I'd be hoping for lightening strikes..MANY of them...tight inside his property line, every time a storm came.



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:38 PM
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With building codes being updated regularly, sometimes as often as yearly, most houses and other noncommercial property will not meet the building code by the age of 10 years or so. With the code passing the existing buildings by, and the fact they are grandfathered in, meaning they don't have to update, this is an obvious attack on an individual's freedom to do what they wish on their private property.



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:38 PM
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blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com...




This started when Salman told the City of Phoenix twice that he wasn't building a church in his backyard, then went ahead and built a church in his backyard.





Then Salman got a permit to have a "game room" in his backyard -- one that said "[a]ny other occupancy or use (business, commercial, assembly, church, etc.) is expressly prohibited."



Salman and his supporters continue to tell a tale about how he's being persecuted for his religion -- so much so that the city has actually put out a fact sheet explaining Salman's disregard for city ordinances, his decision to ignore the repeated warnings from the city, and how this whole mess has absolutely nothing to do with Salman's religion.




As for Salman's other incidents with police -- including serving nearly six years in prison for a drive-by shooting, getting caught with '___' while in the slammer, and once being booked into jail for impersonating a police officer -- he doesn't chalk those up to religious persecution.


Theres a little more than fox news is letting on. Fox news isn't just in there for giving you the news.. their a busines who sells sensational headlines.
edit on 5-8-2012 by Nephlim because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by LIGHTvsDARK

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by LIGHTvsDARK
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


Does your house meet city codes? Give us your address so we can come over and inspect your domicile.


Codes change constantly. 99% of the houses don't meet current coding.


EXACTLY! Hell, Obama is going to tack on a 4% tax on every house to help pay for his "healthcare" bill. Hmmm, I wonder if they are going to require the houses be upgraded to meet NEW CODES!? So sick and tired of morons that have no idea what they are talking about.

Hell, they will whine about how expensive houses are becoming while at the same time pushing the government to force us to install fire sprinklers in 100 year old homes.



It was a nightmare doing a complete remodel on my house.



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:41 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


I have read about this when it happened BH. I have read ALL the pertinent court papers. YES, he has used his home as a tax write off because he holds church services. So what!? I have firiends over all the time, but MY house is not built as a commercial building.

Let me ASK you a question, did YOU know that because a house can have a door that opens inwards, it does not fit the codes for a commercial building? Of course not, you have NO CLUE what the hell you are talking about. Does YOUR home have the required turnaround circle diameter for HC accessibility in the bathroom? OOPS, better suggest that it is a CODE VIOLATION!

This is a blatant attack against religious freedom and YOU are suggesting that it has something to do with CODE violations. Yeah, WHATEVER.


+4 more 
posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
What i want to know is, what the hell gives them the right to tell someone they can't have a private party to discuss the bible, or anything. It was a small group, we're not talking a huge cathedral with 500 people in it.


They don't have that right. That's not what happened. I have posted the fact sheet twice, and still, people don't read it and continue to think this has something to do with religion... He IS free to have a bible party in his house. It's just that 80 people wouldn't fit. So, he built a building on his property that violated 96 city codes and opened the door and passed the collection plate...



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:42 PM
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How bizarre.

For a long time in SA evangelical-style churches have had home-cell groups in the week, or Bible studies at people's homes.

I've also heard that some believers stay away from any organized churches and only have home services, which seems to be a growing movement (I was wondering when it was going to step on organized religion's toes, it seems if you won't attend an organized church, then they at least want to rent you a hall).

Here we have issues of people from some religions slaughtering goats and sheep, and drumming all night.
We're all urged to be culturally sensitive to certain events, even if they're technically illegal.

If they ever ban Bible-study they'd have to arrest a lot of people.
Every time we have socials something Biblical is discussed, even if not everybody is a Christian.
That's also technically "Bible-study".
Also in the gay Metropolitan Community Church we had much Bible-study in people's homes, often with well-known authors, and it made people from marginal communities feel really special.
Even the Hare Krishna's have a weekly home visit to any volunteers.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how many people were crowding the house, or on the other details.

But whatever the case - it's just wrong to arrest a man and imprison him for Bible-study!

How unbelievably disproportionate!
edit on 5-8-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:43 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


If this is the case I think it is, he got permission to convert his garage, into a game room. That then becomes a part of his residence, and he may use any part as he sees fit, including the lawful right to conduct prayer groups or home study. Nothing was done that is illegal.



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


How is this not a violation of the free exercise clause of the 2nd Amendment?


The Free Exercise Clause is in the First Amendment. The Second Amendment is the right to keep and bear arms.


Yeah, we already cleared that snafu up.



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Imagine being a construction expert, learning all the NEW LAWS created by a healthcare law? This is what is happening in the US, the unintended and intended consequences is making things untenable. WTF and OMG.



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by seeker1963
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 



No, l I'm here to look BEHIND the sensational headlines and find out the other side of the story.


Listen,,,,,I am not a Christian, but I do believe in the Constitution of the United States of America!! You miss the fact that you NEVER see someone arrested for having poker parties, BBQ's etc etc...

I see every week of Christians being prosecuted for practicing their religious beliefs! Never see a problem with any other religion....Hmmmm, kind of amazes me that this sort of prosecution of those with the Christian faith suddenly gained attention after the election of our current POTUS! I don't give a damn if he is a Muslim or a Christian or he believes in shaking hands with the damn devil when he wakes up in the morning, but he sure as hell as the President of the United States should abide by the Constitution!!!



This is the entire point in a nutshell. No different than a poker night, than my father having his friends over and gong over his method of duplicate bridge. To each each folk, different strokes.



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