An Honest Question For ATS Preachers

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posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



God hates rebellion.


God hates rebellion to save the world he created, but he'll allow terrorists to blow up buildings filled with the people he's "saved".

I see what side you're on. Have a good life.




posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by autowrench

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


What? What has pantheism to do with anything? I don't worship multiple Gods. I revere the Divine that is in everything and everyone.


I didnt say Polytheism, I said PANtheism. Polytheism is the belief there are multiple gods.

Pantheism ~ Plato

Pantheism comes from PAN "all" and THEOS "god" in Greek meaning "all/everything is god, part of god".


So you are saying there is only one God then? What about these?
The Gods Of The Bible
And, if there is only one God, then why did this God warn us not to worship "Other Gods?" Did this one God kill the other Gods? Please explain.


A little confused here, you quoted my post so are you arguing with Plato? And when God said that He was talking to people who were under the impression there existed multiple gods. They had just spent 400 years in Egypt. Reading an admission to the existence if multiple gods from the perspective of God is very poor exegeses.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



God hates rebellion.


God hates rebellion to save the world he created, but he'll allow terrorists to blow up buildings filled with the people he's "saved".

I see what side you're on. Have a good life.


Does God ever use His enemies to enforce judgment? Is there any models from scripture for that?



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by article
 


I like that, thanks for posting it. In our interlocked world, we never know the ultimate result of our actions, for good, or for ill.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



God hates rebellion.


God hates rebellion to save the world he created, but he'll allow terrorists to blow up buildings filled with the people he's "saved".


So you believe that God should micromanage the world and force people not to do anything that's against his will? You'd like a puppet master God?



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by wildtimes
 


Because there isn't any Christian denominations that teach Pantheism.

This one is pretty close.
www.uua.org...


Our Unitarian Universalist faith has evolved through a long history, with theological origins in European Christian traditions. Today Unitarian Universalism is a non-creedal faith which allows individual Unitarian Universalists the freedom to search for truth on many paths. While our congregations uphold shared principles, individual Unitarian Universalists may discern their own beliefs about spiritual, ethical, and theological issues.


and this one is definitely:
Ecclesia Gnostica



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


It's a hard choice, but if you want to help more people, you have to make sacrifices. I guess you believed the sacrifice wasn't necessary.

I've made plenty of sacrifices, so I'm not sure what you mean. I did sacrifice a professional license, and my experience on the inside was the catalyst for that. I know why they do it....
what they fail to accept is that for someone who has bonded and become involved with a person or family, that should not just "end" according to some agency's "need" to keep their "status".



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by wildtimes
 


Because there isn't any Christian denominations that teach Pantheism.

This one is pretty close.
www.uua.org...


Unitarians reject the Doctrine of the Trinity and the divinity of Christ, so they, like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, are not technically Christian.

And don't get me started on the Gnostics, lol.
edit on 19-7-2012 by adjensen because: Forgot my usual dig at the Gnostics :-)



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 01:32 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


Unitarians reject the Doctrine of the Trinity and the divinity of Christ, so they, like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, are not technically Christian.

"Technically"? I'm talking about the teachings of Jesus being promoted. I don't care about "technically". Their message is definitely in line with Jesus' teachings.

We are all one. Every one of us has the Holy Spirit. That's what he supposedly said. That's all that matters.
Love one another as you love yourself, and revere the Divine from which we all come.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 01:55 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 
no arguing with you there.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen
 


Unitarians reject the Doctrine of the Trinity and the divinity of Christ, so they, like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, are not technically Christian.

"Technically"? I'm talking about the teachings of Jesus being promoted. I don't care about "technically". Their message is definitely in line with Jesus' teachings.

We are all one. Every one of us has the Holy Spirit. That's what he supposedly said. That's all that matters.
Love one another as you love yourself, and revere the Divine from which we all come.


Well, I use "technically" as a bit of a weasel word, because so many people think that Christians are just whoever calls themselves such and there's no point in starting an argument on that basis.

A more robust statement would be "Unitarians, like Mormons and JWs, in rejecting the Doctrine of the Trinity and Christ's divinity, are not Christians, but a separate, Christo-centric, religion."

An easy way to tell is whether a church's baptism is accepted by a clearly Christian church, such as the Catholics or Anglicans, and the aforementioned groups' baptisms are not (since they are not "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit".) If a Mormon wants to become a Methodist, they need to be baptized -- significantly, not RE-baptized, as they are viewed as never having been baptized before.

See? You caused me to yammer on that much and you probably fell asleep in the first sentence



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


And don't get me started on the Gnostics, lol.

No? "lol". Why, you have no way to refute it? Christ himself learned from them. Get up to date, you'll learn some new things. Every freaking DAY there are new hypotheses and discoveries. Get out of the antiquity teachings, and with the modern knowledge of our capabilities.

I just don't understand how people can be so closed off to new thoughts, learning, study and analysis.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


An easy way to tell is whether a church's baptism is accepted by a clearly Christian church, such as the Catholics or Anglicans,

I was baptized, confirmed, and married in the Episcopal church. Good enough? Please don't assume I don't know anything about what I'm talking about.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen
 


And don't get me started on the Gnostics, lol.

No? "lol". Why, you have no way to refute it? Christ himself learned from them. Get up to date, you'll learn some new things. Every freaking DAY there are new hypotheses and discoveries. Get out of the antiquity teachings, and with the modern knowledge of our capabilities.

I just don't understand how people can be so closed off to new thoughts, learning, study and analysis.


This will get very interesting. I suggest not going toe to toe with Adj about the Gnostics, take my word for it.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen
 


And don't get me started on the Gnostics, lol.

No? "lol". Why, you have no way to refute it? Christ himself learned from them. Get up to date, you'll learn some new things. Every freaking DAY there are new hypotheses and discoveries. Get out of the antiquity teachings, and with the modern knowledge of our capabilities.


Christ himself learned from them? How the heck did that work? The Christian Gnostics thought that Christ was an Aeon, here to give THEM the gnosis. The Gnostics (in general, not just the "Christian" ones,) were a polytheistic and dualistic form of derived neo-Platonism.

Jesus Christ, on the other hand, was a Jew, and never taught anything that was out of line with the foundations of Orthodox Judaism. He was monotheistic and a non-dualist, so in the incredibly unlikely event that he might have run across some Gnostics, about all that he would have learned from them is that they taught a world view that was diametrically opposed to his own.

"Get up to date"? I'd suggest that you do, as well, but beginning with history, not imagined realities.

I will give you the same challenge that I give to all "gnostics" -- explain why the Bringer of Gnosis would be born in Israel, an Orthodox Jew, rather than into a heritage more befitting his role. And then kindly explain why, if he "accidentally" found himself in such as state, he did not immediately denounce said Judaism and its incompetent and bumbling Demiurge, rather than praising and worshipping him, as he did.



An easy way to tell is whether a church's baptism is accepted by a clearly Christian church, such as the Catholics or Anglicans,

I was baptized, confirmed, and married in the Episcopal church. Good enough? Please don't assume I don't know anything about what I'm talking about.


Geez, you're pretty touchy. You made a remark that implied that you believe non-Christians are Christians, simply because they profess to following some of what Christ had to say. By that logic, Muslims are Christians, as are Buddhists and anyone else who follows the Golden Rule. I merely pointed out that "Christian", for Christians, has a technical and theological meaning, and you can't just apply it as you see fit (not rationally, at any rate.)

Baptism, confirmation and marriage do not necessarily impart theological knowledge, so I am not sure how you believe them to be germane to the discussion.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:57 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


A more robust statement would be "Unitarians, like Mormons and JWs, in rejecting the Doctrine of the Trinity and Christ's divinity, are not Christians, but a separate, Christo-centric, religion."

Wiccans also reject the "Doctrine of the Trinity," or the Three Headed God of Christianity. I know, I know, scripture supports this, it's in the bible....I know it is. but!
There is a dilemma! Christians know that in order for Jesus to be the savior of mankind, he must also be God. The Bible says so. If he is not God, then he cannot be the savior. His death would be meaningless. So Christians have invented the Trinity to explain Christ's divinity. He is man. He is God. He is both. He must be in order to be the savior. Unfortunately, he is ambivalent at best. Sometimes he claims to be one with God. Sometimes he admits God knows things which he doesn't know and does things which he cannot do. Christians go to nearly any length to prove the Trinity including the declaration that its a "mystery" and we "just don't have the mind to understand it". Is the Bible the perfect, inerrant word of God? Christians created the Trinity doctrine and the contradictions, which must accompany the doctrine..... so No!
So how did the Trinity doctrine/dogma come into existence?

The origins of the Trinity doctrine are appalling. Like most historic issues pertaining to Christianity, there was much deceit and bloodshed. Many lives were lost before 'Trinitarianism' was finally adopted.

As many Christians know, or should know, the word "trinity" does not appear one time in the Bible. It is not there because it is a doctrine which evolved in early Christianity. It was a manipulated, bloody and deadly process before it finally arrived as an "accepted doctrine" of the Church.

What is the source of the Christian concept of the Trinity?

History of the Doctrine of the Trinity
As you can easily see, the doctrine of the Trinity is something not real at all, just accepted as such, like a great many other things people think are in the Bible, and are not.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 03:00 PM
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reply to post by autowrench
 

I hope you don't hate Jesus though, the divine man, and that you are willing to consider that his great work or Magnum Opus was of value, and significance..?



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by autowrench
 


I'm not sure what the point of all that was. It is a fairly simple concept -- if one does not believe in the divinity of Christ, one is not a Christian, because Christian theology has, at its core, that fundamental belief.

One if free to dismiss it, on whatever basis they like, as you clearly do, but then one is something other than a Christian, which is a label that defines those who attest to a set of fundamental beliefs.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 04:00 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



a Christian, which is a label that defines those who attest to a set of fundamental beliefs.



That's a very vague definition of Christianity, and not Christian at all. There are three very basic beliefs that define Christianity. Well, more than three, but the three will unlock the rest. And all three center around the life and death of Jesus.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by autowrench
 


But wait! What if he "embodied" God? Play along, now. What if? He would have been Jesus physically, but his mind would have shared spaced with that of God. Basically, God possessed him. And God's mind was accompanied by the SPIRIT of holiness.

Jesus = body

God = mind

Holy Ghost = spirit

Do the wiccans not believe in body, mind, and soul? I know for a fact they have the maiden, the wife/mother/whatever, and the crone. They do believe in threes. Would this not make sense?





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