Have you ever made someone question their beliefs via religious debate?

Originally posted by Azadok2day

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Julio
This goes both ways;

In an evolution vs creation debate, have you managed to open the other person's mind?
Or have you ever converted (hate that word) someone?

Yes, and that person suddenly saw the ridiculousness in her religious beliefs. She then said something that, in my opinion, is how most religious people feel.

I said to her, "Do you honestly believe that there is an ALLL-knowing, ALLLL-powerful, inVISible being, who created the WHOLE universe, and who lives in another dimension called heavennnnn?"

Her eyes went wide, as though a band-aid had been suddenly ripped from her brain. She then said, "But I HAVE to believe." With that statement comes the unspoken words: "even though I know it isn't true."

edit on 6/13/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Your religion of evolution is no different , your priests the scientists put forth the dogma of evolution and that all living matter spontaneously occurred from non living matter . There is absolutely zero evidence for this happening yet because we are here this is your proof . The deeper scientists delve into the enigma of life the more they see intelligent design . Conservative estimates of the mathematical odds of one type of DNA forming naturally is 1 in 10 to the 40,000 that's a ten with forty thousand zeroes after it .

Your religion takes way more faith than the belief in God who left s proof of his existence through his prophets , I believe if you do an honest investigation into these prophecies using both the bible and secular sources you can only come to one conclusion , God is real and his prophets have told us the truth . Satan is also real and has worked very very hard to distort the truth with multiple lies , 99% of the churches perpetuate the lies of Satan and distort the truth of Gds word .

It starts at the very second verse of the bible , we're the simple word "WAS ". Was mistranslated and it should have been became . The world became void and without form . Genesis is the story of recreation of the earth not its original creation which happened in verse one hundreds of millions of years ago . We all lived on this earth in spiritual bodies for millions of years . All the monolithic structures around he world were built by us and survived the destruction of verse two of Genesis . This is our second time on earth , the first earth age was destroyed because Satan rose up against God convincing 1/3 of gods people to follow him , this is why the first earth age was destroyed .

christiananswers.net...

TextChemicals + Energy: Could They Have Given Birth to the First Life? One chemist has calculated the immense odds against amino acids ever combining to form the necessary proteins by undirected means. He estimated the probability to be more than 10 to the 67th to 1 (1067:1) against even a small protein forming by time and chance, in an ideal mixture of chemicals, in an ideal atmosphere, and given up to 100 billion years (an age 10 to 20 times greater than the supposed age of the Earth). [129] Mathematicians generally agree that, statistically, any odds beyond 1 in 10 to the 50th (1:1050) have a zero probability of ever happening (“and even that gives it the benefit of the doubt!”). [130]

I don't buy into all of the theory of evolution, either. The best any honest person can say is, I just don't know. But that in no way offers evidence of a supreme being. Yes, something awesome happened to create life, but that's as far as I'm going.

As for the biblical gods of any religion: if you truly believed in a being that could crush you, disintegrate you, or toss you into eternal damnation for a sin that you might have forgotten to ask forgiveness for, you'd be on your knees and praying in utter terror 24/7.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by jiggerj

 

its not about the details in the myths,,, its about the conentation,, the meaning,,,,, if an aware creator created the universe,, it created the volcanoes,, and you and me..... indigenous people made up there own myths and stories, imagining the causes of these natural process' and forces.... regardless of what the indigenous people think or you and i think.,., a creator could have caused the universe to come into existence,, or it could have not.....

And the biblical stories didn't get their start with the indigenous people you speak of? No, no, even though we now understand that the lava heats up and builds pressure, causing a volcano to erupt, the goddess Pele is behind it 100%. No Goddess Pele, no volcanic eruptions. How can anyway argue with this???

Originally posted by IEtherianSoul9
reply to post by Julio

 

I'm currently 0-3 (from what I can remember) in challenging someone to question their beliefs about a particular religion. They hold on so tightly to such dogmatic beliefs, it's difficult to rationalize with them. However, no matter how heated the debates get, at the end of the day, I still have to respect their beliefs.

I have to say though, the craziest thing I've heard my friend say (this was during high school) is that dinosaur fossils were put here by Satan do deceive us.

[/quote


I think you are right..it is respecting their faith and what brings them peace in some way...
One girl once ask me why I did not attend church anymore.. I told her I had been to the top of the mountain and the view up there was magnificent and so much more than being in the valley closed in on all sides by hills and trees. She got the point and said ...I am safe in the valley...and I don't think I want to know what you saw...
Got one just as crazy as yours..I ask a pastor once about how he explained dinosaur bones..and got this answer. The dinosaurs died in the Flood...Sigh...

edit on 13-6-2012 by ellieN because: Typo

Hi OP S+F.

The only person that I know I influence the beliefs of is myself. I have debated with others, often.

I try to open peoples minds, it promotes growth and development. Very healthy.

To all who keep saying that God is 'all knowing' I think it maybe 'all experiencing' is closer to the truth. I'll explain.

When I watched Titanic I knew the end from the beginning. I knew what would happen. I did not however know/experience the story. I think 'God' experiences and learns through creation.

To some it may seem obscene to suggest that we could teach the creator or that such a being could learn anything new. I would say how else could a creator learn? Have you not learned anything from becoming a parent?

All parents will smile at that comment because you know what I mean.

I also think that the creator made all things and and beings from the energy that was itself. ie the universes/dimensions everything is part of God and makes up God. If not then the concept of God does not make sense to me.

The Annunaki story might be true also. Who knows?

Originally posted by karen61057

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by jiggerj

 

its not about the details in the myths,,, its about the conentation,, the meaning,,,,, if an aware creator created the universe,, it created the volcanoes,, and you and me..... indigenous people made up there own myths and stories, imagining the causes of these natural process' and forces.... regardless of what the indigenous people think or you and i think.,., a creator could have caused the universe to come into existence,, or it could have not.....

Why couldnt it just be chemical reactions and simple physics ? Why does an intelligence have to have started the fire ? Oh and we are indigenous people. ( only because you listed them seperatly like they were different from you and I.)

because you consider yourself intelligent yet the chemical reactions and simple physics are so simple and dumb.... how does a dumb stupid universe create a creature that believes it is intelligent, yet knows less then 1% of nothing about the universe,,,,, can you make chemicals or stars? can you establish a physical reality that is capable of supporting billions of planets and life? you can not do these complex things yet you are the intelligent one and the universe is simply nothing..... even if a being like we would think of being, didnt start the universe,,, the universe is , intelligent,, as in its format and capability,, everything we know as intelligence or information or potential or ability for ourselves is taken/borrowed from the universe... it has given us the chance of existence,, whatever it is we could not, be or do without it...... something knows a lot more about it all then me,,,, maybe something knows all about it... and i mentioned indigenous people, in a way of saying early man are the ones that first hypothesized the myths,,, it is because early mans survival and their generations survival that allowed you and i to exist,,, you and i did not come up with those myths,,, but just as i believe in some form of creator,,, maybe there is a finite amount of logical explanations for the existence of all things contained in the universe...,,. i understand science, and unarguably agree with most finds it discovers,,,,, but i have a hard time viewing the universe as a given,,,, as something that must be for you and me,,,,,, as something that can just happen,,,, we dont know how large the universe is,,,, we dont know the size of the universe relative to what is outside the universe,,,, smarty pants scientests assume there is nothing outside the universe.... even if time for this universe did start in a beginning mode,,, why assume this is the first and only universe to exist in, uncountable, unimaginable, time.....

reply to post by Julio

I led a homeless man to the Lord, and he still has a glowing smile to this day and although outwardly he struggles, including addiction struggles, deep within he has peace and love and knows the Lord intimately.

I was just on fire that night, and he could see it in my eyes, and then something happened and now the Lord lives in him as well.

P.S. There's nothing worse than a self-righteous atheist who is certain that he knows better and presumably, all.

Originally posted by Julio

Originally posted by borntowatch

Why do we have so much diversity if we all come from the same amoeba or whatever you believe evolution teaches, why the diversity.
Its a double edged sword.
Whats your answer to that question
Silly argument a child can see through

Because mutations...?

There are 3 rabbits. Two are "regular" while the third has a mutation that gives it stronger hearing. They are being hunted by a wolf. The mutated rabbit hears the wolf first, and gets a head start on running away. It's the only survivor and so it passes on it's strong hearing genes. Continue this process hundreds of thousands of times over hundred of thousands of years and you get diversity.

Another thing to look at are islands. For instance, there are 6 rabbits. Suddenly, massive rainstorm. They are divided by a large river. One side of the river has wolves and the other side has owls or something. The rabbits on the side with owls will develop abilities for avoiding owls, and the rabbits on the wolf side will develop abilities for avoiding wolves using the process I mentioned above. After say 100,000 years, the river dries up, and the rabbits on one side can't mate with the rabbits on the other side because they are now separate species.


The rabbit example isn't the best, but it applies to everything. Just apply it to the first life that existed.

Hey einsteis we can say that about people as well, Duh.
Mutations are not mutually exclusive to evolution. your argument is that of a child

By the way with all this technology at your fingertips and all your little Pleb mates to help can you show me a beneficial mutation....I will even say please. No assumptions I want to see the evidence.

or is that just your faith that dictates that belief, sounds like you are more religious than me.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj

Yes, and that person suddenly saw the ridiculousness in her religious beliefs. She then said something that, in my opinion, is how most religious people feel.

I said to her, "Do you honestly believe that there is an ALLL-knowing, ALLLL-powerful, inVISible being, who created the WHOLE universe, and who lives in another dimension called heavennnnn?"

Her eyes went wide, as though a band-aid had been suddenly ripped from her brain. She then said, "But I HAVE to believe." With that statement comes the unspoken words: "even though I know it isn't true."

edit on 6/13/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

And you believe from nothing we get the full table of elements, light and heat then life and death and its meaningless. You and your argument is less than childish.


you honestly believe that there is an Noooo-knowing, Nooo-power, Nooo being, NOOOO nothing that created the WHOLE universe, and who doesnt exist in any dimension called anything?"
Facepalm.
Your words are just silly.

Wow! Talk about being brainwashed. You can't even see logic when it's right in your face. And then, you can't even see the good sense in your own statement. Your words are right on the money.

How about Pele, goddess of volcanoes? Prove to us that she doesn't exist. Of course, she doesn't exist, but you can't prove it. Kinda ridiculous to believe in her though, eh?

Wow! Talk about being brainwashed. You can't even see logic when it's right in your face. The down side is there is no good sense in your comments.
The ridiculous nature of volcano ladys and spaghetti monsters is just a grasp

Christians have Jesus, 2000 years ago it was Jesus who left us His Holy Spirit.
Volcano ladys, whats in your head, thats simpleton talk, irrelevant deflection, fake structure to hide your inadequate argument.
2000 years ago Christ walked, nobody with a gram of intelligence denies that statement, you may I suspect.
Gamaliel stated if Christ is a fake this issue will go away, persecutions and millions of martyrs latter, here we stand. Christianity blossoms in India Africa and China. The church awakens.

Volcano lady, how silly.

reply to post by IEtherianSoul9


I had someone use the ole "Dinosaur bones were put here by Satan to deceive us" argument too. Then I calmly asked, "What about algae, coelacanth, amoebas, crocodiles and viruses? These are also largely ancient lifeforms as well...but they are still with us to this day. Are they part of the evil Plot o' Satan too?"

That guy Satan...he's one busy dude. In between his epic bioengineering feats to trick us hapless humans, he's also behind every bad thing that happens on Earth and aliens...forgot about those. Yeah, he's behind UFO's and aliens too. Dang, one hell of a gig.

Originally posted by rhinoceros

Evolution doesn't teach that everything comes from some amoeba. Why are so quick to disregard the theory, when you haven't even bothered to find this out? Ultimately, diversity rises from imprecise replication of DNA (observed fact), and subsequent selection by nature (fact), repeated over and over (fact). This is the core of the modern theory of evolution. The first point was never part of Darwin's theory, and thus us learned find it cute when laymen call us Darwinists.

edit on 13-6-2012 by rhinoceros because: (no reason given)

Oops.... evolution teaches we were seeded by aliens or we were dust and water and lightning strikes, how silly of me to forget, #chortle* chortle#
Tell me that is not a religious indoctrination fairy tail.

Facts are they? Well show me the evidence or am I spose to believe you like I am a believer of religious indoctrinations provided by scientists. I dont believe you. Not one bit. Evidence not assumptions.

As for Darwin he didnt know what DNA was so of course he didnt know what he was talking about. thats what makes evolution so stupid, Darwin though we were made up of water.
The truth is DNA needs 1, a sender 2, a code and 3, a receiver. If the DNA message is corrupted (imprecise replication of DNA) between the sender and the receiver then the receiver will not understand the code.
Evolution can not explain that simple sender code receiver relationship. Your argument is futile and scientists still cant explain it.
So if scientists cant explain it how can you. Foolish argument

Originally posted by HoppedUp
reply to post by IEtherianSoul9

 

I had someone use the ole "Dinosaur bones were put here by Satan to deceive us" argument too. Then I calmly asked, "What about algae, coelacanth, amoebas, crocodiles and viruses? These are also largely ancient lifeforms as well...but they are still with us to this day. Are they part of the evil Plot o' Satan too?"

That guy Satan...he's one busy dude. In between his epic bioengineering feats to trick us hapless humans, he's also behind every bad thing that happens on Earth and aliens...forgot about those. Yeah, he's behind UFO's and aliens too. Dang, one hell of a gig.

Prove they are old, prove to me the geological time scale is accurate.
Its a silly silly belief.
www.zimbio.com...
Go study some cryptozoology

reply to post by borntowatch


There are several ancient species still around today that have been around for millions of years. Crocodiles and alligators have been roaming for 200 million years.

That doesn't mean that all animals that lived millions of years ago are still around today. Are you saying I should be careful as not to run into a Tyrannosaurus in the woods somewhere? Rawr.

It's not an exact science but it's approximate enough to know that dinosaurs didn't exist 6,000 years ago.

how do we know

Dinosaur fossils are found in sedimentary rock, while isotopes like uranium-238, uranium-235 and potassium-40 -- which, remember, have the required long half-lives of more than 1 million years -- are found in igneous (volcanic) rock. So scientists look for the layers of igneous rock (typically from volcanic ash) that "sandwich" the fossil-bearing layer. These igneous rocks -- the "bread" of the sandwich -- can be dated, leaving a bracketed period of time (in between the slices of bread) in which the sedimentary rocks with the dinosaur remains must have been formed. This allows scientists to affix a rough age range to dinosaur fossils, all thanks to the layers of time stacked upon each other in the earth around us.

Have you got something as testable, as provable to show they aren't as old as scientists are saying?

Originally posted by borntowatch

Prove they are old, prove to me the geological time scale is accurate.
Its a silly silly belief.
www.zimbio.com...
Go study some cryptozoology

LOL dude, are you serious? This is like, 9th grade biology and common knowledge right here. Don't even get me started on bacterium/bacteria. I bet Satan is behind those guys too.

Originally posted by Archangelelijah
reply to post by Julio

 

Yes, I have changed peoples views.

If you understand the fundermentals of the physical form or matter, it is quite easy actually.

With the bible written and other religious texts to produce faith in ones spirit with the internal positive energy of your Mind, Heart & Soul (+) giving you your spirit. This is why Jesus died on this symbol for all humans.

Externally, everything on Earth is known as Satans domain in knowledge through learning due to the fact that every living thing from plants, animals and humans are all externally made of Fire. The three elements in Fire are Fuel, ( Food ), Heat, ( Hot & Cold ), & Oxygen. Fire has a burning effect when physically touched which is the negative energy of the physical world and this is what happens to us externally in life. This is why every assosiation world wide is formed on a triangular structure. Kings, Queens, Presidents, Primeministers, Captains ect lead from the top and are followed by the general public underneath them. The top guiding for direction as a figure head while the bottom supports the top in labour.

Reverse Live and you recieve Evil, Reverse Lived and you recieve the Devil. Reverse God and you recieve Dog meaning loyal companion.

Humans are living batteries on Earth of negative and positive energy! The Positive of different religions and faith in eachothers spirit has assisted eachothers culture like familys which have got humans to where we are today.

This is why it's considered the 3rd Dimension!

This may be the most rediculous thing I have ever read on ATS to date. As a person who has subjectively sought the universal answers that all humans are hardwired to ask (such as; who are we? where did we come from? why are we here?), I have come to the conclusion that we may never know. But to say that the reason we live in a three dimensional plane is becasue the positives of different religions have assisted each others cultures like familys, is berserk. The physical universe is made of energy, okay. But to say anything beyond that is completely ignorant and is the exact reason why debate among believers of such nonsense is a waste of time. People that believe a magical being living in the sky cares about my wellbeing along with 6 billion other earthly residents makes my skin crawl. I must thank you for this post because it has gotten me active on this site. I must also thank christians on this earth because if it weren't for you thinking you'd be rewarded for good doing on this earth, I would have been stranded on the side of the road without gasoline at least twice

Rarely has it happened, at least directly. I am a proponent of "The Law of One"; the philosophy that we are all individuated sparks of the One Infinite Creator, who is not an ontic god, doesn't judge us any more that we judge ourselves. The entirety of creation is the creator experiencing itself. What I've found is that if you present these ideas to people, they will pursue them largely on their own terms, and in their own time, there is rarely a split-instant realization/conversion, One must first convince oneself of truth.

Additionally, I used to rail against members of "Orthodox religions", knowing that they had the basic idea right, but were so caught up in the dogma of their particular religion that they were unable to see the greater truth. Then, I came across this quote from the Quo transcripts that makes a great deal of sense to me:

Quo: Many churches and many different religions decide to bypass the intellect and rest upon the opening of the heart. They engage in song after song that praises the one infinite Creator within the language and clothing of that particular religion. Their members are perhaps encouraged to pray out loud and to become ecstatic. And in the surging of the rhythmic cadences of the songs, in the prayers and the praise, the love and light of the one infinite Creator seem palpable. And therefore the experience of those seeking the Creator in these ways has a certain amount of purity to it which is missing from those more intellectually organized religions where the mind is the tool used to probe at the meaning of life, of what it is to be a human being and what it is to serve the one infinite Creator.

I hope this has perhaps been helpful for you, Namaste!

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by Julio

Originally posted by borntowatch

Why do we have so much diversity if we all come from the same amoeba or whatever you believe evolution teaches, why the diversity.
Its a double edged sword.
Whats your answer to that question
Silly argument a child can see through

Because mutations...?

There are 3 rabbits. Two are "regular" while the third has a mutation that gives it stronger hearing. They are being hunted by a wolf. The mutated rabbit hears the wolf first, and gets a head start on running away. It's the only survivor and so it passes on it's strong hearing genes. Continue this process hundreds of thousands of times over hundred of thousands of years and you get diversity.

Another thing to look at are islands. For instance, there are 6 rabbits. Suddenly, massive rainstorm. They are divided by a large river. One side of the river has wolves and the other side has owls or something. The rabbits on the side with owls will develop abilities for avoiding owls, and the rabbits on the wolf side will develop abilities for avoiding wolves using the process I mentioned above. After say 100,000 years, the river dries up, and the rabbits on one side can't mate with the rabbits on the other side because they are now separate species.


The rabbit example isn't the best, but it applies to everything. Just apply it to the first life that existed.

Hey einsteis we can say that about people as well, Duh.
Mutations are not mutually exclusive to evolution. your argument is that of a child

By the way with all this technology at your fingertips and all your little Pleb mates to help can you show me a beneficial mutation....I will even say please. No assumptions I want to see the evidence.

or is that just your faith that dictates that belief, sounds like you are more religious than me.

Easy now, no need to call me a child. Let's keep this thread civil.

And yes, we can say that about people. I just used rabbits as an example because they are more interesting to talk about in my opinion. I don't really understand the point you are trying to get across...Could you possibly clarify for me?

Beneficial mutations are very rare, and the chances of a negative mutation are much higher. That's why the theory of evolution states it takes millions of years to see change. There are a lot of things that affect how a species evolves, and mutations are just a part of it.

A beneficial mutation (for a human) would be not growing in wisdom teeth. This is beneficial because having wisdom teeth in a jaw that's not big enough hurts a lot. Ask anyone who has had them grow in how they felt. That's my evidence.

Another positive mutation would be telekinesis, but that isn't real so it doesn't really count I guess.

I'd recommend reading The Greatest Show on Earth. Richard Dawkins is a bit of a dick to anyone who isn't an atheist, so you have to have tough skin. However, he explains the theory of evolution in a very easy to understand way (by that I mean you don't need to be a scientist to understand all the terms.) I'm about 75% of the way through, and so far it's a pretty easy read.

Originally posted by borntowatch
As a Christian I question my faith the Bible other Christians constantly.
Christianity is not exclusive, we live in the world watch TV and listen to Dawkinses and Hitchenses all the time.
You surmise that we as a faith are insular, you also surmise that we dont understand the ridiculousness of the Creator taking human form to save our wretched skins.
We do.
Faith is not something we choose, God gives us faith and that faith is evidence of the truth, seriously do you think I would accept that story if I didnt have God given faith?

Humanity can not change what God has given us.

Cactus thinks to highly of himself, humanity has very few answers when it comes to the crunch. None more relevant than life and death. Death is a new beginning, Cactus offers nothing and people are sick and tired of nothing.
Hope is important and atheism offers nothing at all, no hope as well as nothing.

edit on 13-6-2012 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)

I'm not an atheist (although I don't belong to any religion) but you write this post about not assuming things about Christians, and then you assume that aetheism offers "no hope, as well as nothing." Most of the atheists I know are enjoying life, living, loving. They are good people. Of course there are all types of them I realize. But someone who believes that it's all random and that we die does not necessarily have a life without meaning. That is ridiculous to assume that otherwise.

Originally posted by ExquisitExamplE
Rarely has it happened, at least directly. I am a proponent of "The Law of One"; the philosophy that we are all individuated sparks of the One Infinite Creator, who is not an ontic god, doesn't judge us any more that we judge ourselves. The entirety of creation is the creator experiencing itself. What I've found is that if you present these ideas to people, they will pursue them largely on their own terms, and in their own time, there is rarely a split-instant realization/conversion, One must first convince oneself of truth.

Additionally, I used to rail against members of "Orthodox religions", knowing that they had the basic idea right, but were so caught up in the dogma of their particular religion that they were unable to see the greater truth. Then, I came across this quote from the Quo transcripts that makes a great deal of sense to me:

Quo: Many churches and many different religions decide to bypass the intellect and rest upon the opening of the heart. They engage in song after song that praises the one infinite Creator within the language and clothing of that particular religion. Their members are perhaps encouraged to pray out loud and to become ecstatic. And in the surging of the rhythmic cadences of the songs, in the prayers and the praise, the love and light of the one infinite Creator seem palpable. And therefore the experience of those seeking the Creator in these ways has a certain amount of purity to it which is missing from those more intellectually organized religions where the mind is the tool used to probe at the meaning of life, of what it is to be a human being and what it is to serve the one infinite Creator.

I hope this has perhaps been helpful for you, Namaste!

Really good point. I'm basically of the same beliefs as you are. In fact I've seen it and felt it, felt myself as one of the cells of the creator, while simultaneously glimpsing the entirety of it all, which is humbling and kind of scary.

But I do think that continuing along these lines, the heart will open because it eventually has to, since logic and intellect etc. can only go on alone for so long. Most religions do concentrate on love more and that is VERY powerful. The problem as I see it is that they then go into this duality mode of God being good, but then there MUST be something bad that you're to stay away from and judge. They also see the creator as separate from themselves AND then are told that they can't experience any of this without the church.

I enjoy reading learning truth about christianity, of course I understand how truth can very from person to person. But I think there could be a great darkness over the other side of the veil. But I believe there is light as well.

I think and believe Jesus is in the highest spiritual realms of people that ever lived on the earth. But I enjoy finding holes in textual content were people that say there are none if it doesn't add up.

I used to believe in the Book of Mormon but I've done great studying on it's roots and there are things mighty fishy about it. Like no DNA to back up the hebrew people that were supposed to come from ancient Jerusalem. No ancient artifacts and the list goes on. This is Romney's religion, I would think he is a thinking man and hope he does seriously think about it because we will have a president that will be reading that book in the white house if he is elected.
I actually think James E. Padgett could be on to truth and was visited by Jesus and many of his apostles in or about 1915, but it was stated over and over that he is NOT God and does not want in any way to be called a God. But he is a supreme example of receiving the divine love of God and a true conduit to get to the highest heaven. From what he told James Pagett, there are great errors in the bible and Jesus is NOT happy about it. Though many truths do exist. But he wants to once and for all eradicate the concept that he is a God. But he does say that he is predicted to come in the old testament. And that he is the way, but no a GOD. He claims to be the son of God and the sinless one and the ex-ampler to obtain the true and living God (the light that is with in us all.

But again, that concept raises a red flag amongst fundamentalist christians because they think just about every word in the bible is correct. But I think Jesus came back to say it isn't and he isn't happy about it.

But many christians will think that James E. Pagdett in false because he was a medium. Though he was a devout orthodox methodist for most of his life.

He does claim that the designer of the Gisa Pyramid came to him under a certain Egyptian ruler centuries before Ramses 2, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John The Baptist, John, Luke, Paul and Peter etc.

They most all stress and say that Jesus does not want to be called a God and so much more. But seem to still follow him and understand that he is the true light to follow and what seems to be in the highest of heavens for mortals to possibly be in. I can't say I know for sure this is all true but it sure seems to me an incredible story to say the least.

But of course right out of the wood work will be the people that think that all mediums are evil etc. I actually think that Jesus himself may not think so when it comes to James E. Padgett. He was a respected lawyer for over 30 years and never received a dime for his work as a spiritual medium.

All I can say is time will tell. It sure seems that James stirred up a hornets nest on the other side both in a terror filled dark area of the spirit realm and what appears to be the highest realms.

The people that had a dialog with him were from a hellish place and wanted desperately to get out to a magnificent place even a moslem was jealous of ( though they were in a lighted place as well) . But they don't seem to say there is a devil, it is the horror it seems of having bad recollections of what they did wrong while on the earth as opposed the good things they have done. Pretty frightful when I read some of those, what seems to be true characters in what seem to be a dark area. But others seem to be in a good and happy filled place. it almost seems like something lit up when he was being visited by Jesus and company that they wondered what all the stir was about and they wanted desperately to get out of their awful situation these darkened spirits were stuck in. It seemed there was a way out for those in terror but it seemed like a long process when they don't have their bodies to help them.

I am not 100% sure, but I do think and know there is a spirit realm because I have seen it. But people that are not loving spirits can be a terror on that side. It seem this earth and be a duel system on the other side. A lighter area and a darker area.

I am atheist. I have never been convinced of believing in a deity, and I've had pastors and other religious folks try many a time. Conversely, I doubt I have ever come close to making them question their beliefs either.

From a pic I saw:

"Atheists are routinely asked how people will know not to rape and murder without religion telling them not to do it, especially a religion that backs up the orders with threats of hell.

Believers, listen to me carefully when I say this:

When you use this argument, you terrify atheists.
We hear you saying that the only thing standing between you and Ted Bundy is a flimsy belief in a supernatural being made up by pre-literate people trying to figure out where the rain came from.

This is NOT very reassuring if you're trying to argue from a position of moral superiority."


...Usually though, I don't even try to sway a believer into not believing.

I usually go "So... if I don't believe in your god, I am going to hell, according to you, to burn in misery for eternity? That doesn't sound like a very kind and loving god. What if i'm a VERY good person?.. Is Ghandi in hell?"

They then inform me that, yes, I would go to hell unless I believe in their god, and that Ghandi is in fact in hell because he did not believe in the same god.

I then say that even if god exists, if that's how he acts towards good people, he can screw off.