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Have you ever made someone question their beliefs via religious debate?

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posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 07:01 AM
link   

Originally posted by rhinoceros



Evolution can not explain that simple sender code receiver relationship

The what now?



I see what I am dealing with, enjoy your ignorance I will walk away now. I am figuring this is beyond your ability and knowledge

This is going to be so far above your head you wont even give it a cursory glance, I post it to show you your ignorance is unbelievably insurmountable.
www.finalfrontier.org.uk...

Please dont tell me I dont know something because you dont.
your ignorance and comments only reflects your..........




posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 07:06 AM
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Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by rhinoceros



Evolution can not explain that simple sender code receiver relationship

The what now?



I see what I am dealing with, enjoy your ignorance I will walk away now. I am figuring this is beyond your ability and knowledge

This is going to be so far above your head you wont even give it a cursory glance, I post it to show you your ignorance is unbelievably insurmountable.
www.finalfrontier.org.uk...

Please dont tell me I dont know something because you dont.
your ignorance and comments only reflects your..........

Yeah yeah. I'm ignorant because I made a question. You on the other hand know so much, in fact so much that you don't even understand basic biology. You were caught talking from your ass so there's nothing left for you to do but to walk away. Hush hush.

A remainder for the less ignorant. Evolution does not address the origin of life. Evolution does not address the origin of the Universe. One can believe that these were due to Brahma/Allah/Jesus/etc. and still acknowledge the fact of evolution. It's true that the religious kind tend to drag behind in facts. E.g. Christian denial of non-flat non-center of the Universe Earth was around for a long time even after absolute evidence on the contrary. Nonetheless, they eventually got around it. Most now acknowledge the fact of evolution too (including the Catholic church), but the extreme fundamentalists still cling to their irrational fact denying bubble. For them, there's little hope. Due to brain damage (religious indoctrination) they are simply not capable of logical thought on such matters. We should all feel sad for them. In the end, they're victims of abusive parents and religious whack-jobs.
edit on 14-6-2012 by rhinoceros because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 07:33 AM
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Originally posted by Julio
This goes both ways;

In an evolution vs creation debate, have you managed to open the other person's mind?
Or have you ever converted (hate that word) someone?




You do of course really mean 'have you ever managed to convince someone that your opinion is right and theirs is wrong?' don't you? You aren't talking about opening peoples minds, you are talking about making them have the same opinion as you.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 07:34 AM
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reply to post by Julio
 


I give you my view on it, I will try to explain in simple terms, my relationship with God.

I was Agnostic for most of my life, I believed in something "more than this physical world" but I didn't know what or who I was looking for (but I had questions that were forming, that needed answering).

I tried out various religions, looked into New Age stuff, the Occult, was fascinated by Demonology and E.T's etc but I still felt I was looking for something that complimented my personality (Methodical, Logical, Scientific).

The religion I recently turned to (Islam) was not because I wanted to be a part of some club or denomination or the fact that I believed somehow, through affiliation I would connect to god (quite the contrary, I have learn't through the Qur'an that god will answer any and all because he is the most merciful).

I have conversations with god, in my mind, it's that part of me that is perfection, unattainable and invisible but it's there. A moment in time and space, that completely possesses me, neither a voice or a thought, or a feeling but all of these and more, instant.

Inspiration.

That is my relationship with god, I am inspired to fulfill my potential and at times when I am down, I am comforted.

For a brief moment my physical world doesn't matter and I am connected to the universe, learning and becoming more than the sum of my parts.

We are spiritual beings in nature, i.e. non-physical that are for whatever reason bound to this physical world of a period of time, to learn, grow, to evolve (sympathetic evolution, where life evolves to balance the equation, not to overpower it through the "survival of the fittest" ideology that has destroyed humanity).

This verse from the Qur'an sums it up for me:


"Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. Unto Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedes with Him save by His permission? He knows that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includes the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous." (2:255)


I don't bring god down to the level of humanity to satisfy my own ego like some religions (in this day and age) expect us to do. Neither do I have blind faith, rather I develop my belief so I can have faith (the relationship) in/with god.

Take a look at universe, the scale of it all, then imagine the being that architected it, possibly inspiring "Aliens > other beings of his creation" to seed this planet and so on, it's all possible and acceptable so it would be naive to think that the entire universe revolves around the human race (rather we are a part of a much greater tapestry of creation).

In this scenario, science fits in perfectly well, supported by a logical and empathic view of creation and it's creator.

Everything has a source, a beginning and an end. If I put a pile of bricks in an empty field, will they become a house?

No...You need an architect, a project manager, site manager, tradesman etc to put the house together - there is a design pattern involved.

Religion is merely a support structure created to identify a belief we have built into all of us and a desire, to return to the source of our creation, the creator i.e. god.

I apologise for the long post, I could write on this subject for days


Good Health and Peace to you my friend!


edit on 14-6-2012 by old_god because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-6-2012 by old_god because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-6-2012 by old_god because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 07:36 AM
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Originally posted by borntowatch
Please dont tell me I dont know something because you dont.
your ignorance and comments only reflects your..........





posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by rhinoceros

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by rhinoceros



Evolution can not explain that simple sender code receiver relationship

The what now?



I see what I am dealing with, enjoy your ignorance I will walk away now. I am figuring this is beyond your ability and knowledge

This is going to be so far above your head you wont even give it a cursory glance, I post it to show you your ignorance is unbelievably insurmountable.
www.finalfrontier.org.uk...

Please dont tell me I dont know something because you dont.
your ignorance and comments only reflects your..........

Yeah yeah. I'm ignorant because I made a question. You on the other hand know so much, in fact so much that you don't even understand basic biology. You were caught talking from your ass so there's nothing left for you to do but to walk away. Hush hush.

A remainder for the less ignorant. Evolution does not address the origin of life. Evolution does not address the origin of the Universe. One can believe that these were due to Brahma/Allah/Jesus/etc. and still acknowledge the fact of evolution. It's true that the religious kind tend to drag behind in facts. E.g. Christian denial of non-flat non-center of the Universe Earth was around for a long time even after absolute evidence on the contrary. Nonetheless, they eventually got around it. Most now acknowledge the fact of evolution too (including the Catholic church), but the extreme fundamentalists still cling to their irrational fact denying bubble. For them, there's little hope. Due to brain damage (religious indoctrination) they are simply not capable of logical thought on such matters. We should all feel sad for them. In the end, they're victims of abusive parents and religious whack-jobs.
edit on 14-6-2012 by rhinoceros because: (no reason given)



www.finalfrontier.org.uk...
The article is not dealing with the origin of life, origin of the universe Big bang or the flatness of the universe? Its just simply message sender.... message .... message receiver.
Clearly way beyond what you unsderstand

You didnt ask or

Make
a question you made this statement



These are just terms you have made up. You obviously don't have the slightest clue about biology.

Nice deflection but your words betray you.
I am not running away from you and I can change my mind if I want and answer you.
I dont want to deal with you because you are not honest and sincere. You say things that are wrong and deny you said them as well as other things you have said. You infer I am stupid yet have no idea what I am explaining, no desire to even learn them.

You suggest I am talking about abiogenesis when I am not, and never will because as I see it, abiogenesis is beyond your intelligence.
and dear rhino you have become aggressive and rude to hide your ignorance, your evolution religion has more holes than swiss cheese in a gunfight

Simple questions need simple answers not hissy fits

Prove the geological time scale. Hint. Its not related to biology



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 07:44 AM
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In answer to the OP - Yes, I have done this many times.

Having become a Christian in my youth, I did it a lot. With very little success.

I then moved away from my blind belief, and explored other aspects of life (ie my homosexuality, the occult, mysticism, comparative religion, atheism/rationalism), and "regular life", as I often came across others that are agnostic, or believe in just about anything else, and I really wanted to see the world through their eyes, and experience that.

Everybody believes or doesn't believe in whatever it is they choose to, which is mainly dictated by their own personal life experiences - after all, what else can any of us go on?

Then I had an OBE's and a couple of near death experiences that really jolted my experience of reality, which totally unravelled and reconfigured my view of life, which for me is still an ongoing process today. As a result of my NDE, I have no doubt in my mind that a place like "Heaven" exists, and I just can't deny its existence - been there!

A lot of my Christian beliefs were strengthened with this real Faith inducing experience, but also put everything else I had learned and unlearned into a whole new perspective (they all have their place in life), showing me that whatever anyone is experiencing here in this life is what they have chosen to experience in their life, its what they are all about, and no one has the right to take give or take away from their choice of experiences here in this life.

I still enjoy religious debate, although I know that religion in so many religions is usually way off beam from where they should be, I have to say Christianity is very good example.

It's not until you have seen the wiring under the board of life itself, that you really will have great trouble convincing anyone of anything, and will also recognise that often, you just have to leave people to figure stuff out for themselves - I have to say is often the best way.

If I want someone to try to see things the way I do, yes I can debate, but debate has great limitations, however good you think you are. I personally find it easier to tell "god" what I am thinking about someone else, and I simply sit back and let "him" get on with it - "he" does a far better job of convincing people of his existence, as only "he" truly can. If I get a nudge to go do something, and I follow through on it, it usually opens up a channel of communication, but ultimately "he" does the "real" stuff. Most of the time, I am just told to leave well alone, "drop it" and don't interfere - a very clear "no!".

Also i find people are more open to changing their beliefs when they are going through hard times, because it is the only time anyone really truly does. However, that does not mean that anyone should just take advantage of that, because that is so damned irresponsible! I handle those situations very, very carefully. I simply just help them come to their own conclusions, by talking through what they are experiencing/feeling (if they want to talk), and usually they come to a place on their own - especially if you let them do practically all the talking. I find this is the best way.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 07:48 AM
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Originally posted by HumanitiesLastHope
reply to post by Julio
 


Watch this entire video and then please tell me your honest opinion. This goes to anyone who has a belief about evolution vs creation.. When I first saw this video my self I was shocked at the truth..well enjoy..

youtu.be...
edit on 14-6-2012 by HumanitiesLastHope because: fixed the link


Can you point out where in that video the "proof" is, please? I really, really don't want to listen to a preacher and his bible "proof" for longer than I have to, thanks.

Some moons and galaxies and planets spin backwards, so his answer is, (quoting the bible) because "God created the Heaven and the Earth", so he made them spin that way on purpose to make the Big Bang theory look stupid. He said that and you want me to take anything else he has to say seriously?

Millions and billions of years old. So his answer to that is to ask, "Well, were you there?"


I can't take any more so if you could point me to the actual, real proof of something in that video, I'd appreciate it.
edit on 14-6-2012 by CoherentlyConfused because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 07:57 AM
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Also, I have learned that however much you want to help someone, all the good stuff happens when you actually stop "helping". There is nothing worse than being that kind of person that is always trying to "help", when in actual fact, all you are doing is feeding somebodies problem that they have asked you to help with . Sometimes you just gotta walk away.

Also as a result of walking away, it is only then that you realise just how destructive you have been, both to yourself and that other person.

I wasted 6 years of my life "helping" a friend with his addiction to prescription painkillers. It was only when I walked away, that that person actually started to get their act together and sort their life out, and I realised with horror that I had merely made it easier for them to be a complete asshole over those 6 years; as for the relief of getting them out of my life, well, that in itself was priceless!!!



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 07:58 AM
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Originally posted by addygrace
How do you explain people having near death experiences?
Why are human's so intelligent?
Why do we know things about the Universe that is trillion's of light years away?
Why do we know how the origin of the universe expanded?
Why do we contemplate the afterlife?
Why are we in a perfect position in the Universe, to test the sciences?
Why did Jesus come up with the most profound moral rule, when he said to give your other cheek if someone strikes your cheek?

Ask Jesus if he is the truth.
edit on 14-6-2012 by addygrace because: (no reason given)


How do you explain people having near death experiences?
Neurons firing off in you brain to ease the death. Hallucinations are common.

Why are human's so intelligent?
Each species has their own specialty. Sadly some humans can't use this specialty and let others think for them.

Why do we know things about the Universe that is trillion's of light years away?
Telescopes and other measurements.

Why do we know how the origin of the universe expanded?
Telescopes and the "exploding" image of the map. Everything is running away from the centre, like a slow explosion.

Why do we contemplate the afterlife?
Because no one came back and told them how the afterlife is. We are a curious species.

Why are we in a perfect position in the Universe, to test the sciences?
We are one of the perfect places, they might be millions of earth.

Why did Jesus come up with the most profound moral rule, when he said to give your other cheek if someone strikes your cheek?
There are so many profound quotes from men before Jesus as well, its all about how someone takes in the quote.

Ask Jesus if he is the truth..?

What about Allah or Buddha or Gods older than Jesus like Hinduism, Sumerian, Egyptian.. etc



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 07:59 AM
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Originally posted by borntowatch
www.finalfrontier.org.uk...
The article is not dealing with the origin of life, origin of the universe Big bang or the flatness of the universe? Its just simply message sender.... message .... message receiver.
Clearly way beyond what you unsderstand

This website states the following:


DNA is composed of four amino acids:

Adenine
Thymidine
Guanine
Cytosine

Hate to break it to you, but adenine, thymidine, guanine, and cytosine, are not amino acids. They're nucleosides. This is very basic biology, and since final frontier can't get even it right, why should I care about it at all?


Originally posted by borntowatch
You didnt ask or

Make
a question you made this statement

Yes I did. I asked what "simple sender code receiver relationship" is. The reason for my asking is that I consider myself rather learned in the field of biology, but have never heard of this thing.


Originally posted by borntowatch
I am not running away from you and I can change my mind if I want and answer you.
I dont want to deal with you because you are not honest and sincere. You say things that are wrong and deny you said them as well as other things you have said. You infer I am stupid yet have no idea what I am explaining, no desire to even learn them.

You suggest I am talking about abiogenesis when I am not, and never will because as I see it, abiogenesis is beyond your intelligence.
and dear rhino you have become aggressive and rude to hide your ignorance, your evolution religion has more holes than swiss cheese in a gunfight

Simple questions need simple answers not hissy fits

Prove the geological time scale. Hint. Its not related to biology

I will do my best to prove the geological time scale after you have done your best to disprove the mountain of evidence in favor of evolution.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 08:00 AM
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reply to post by borntowatch
 





I dont have to prove anything, you are relying on science and science has to be repeatable testable and observable or its a faith. Dont play me for a fool. The onus is on you. Prove they are ancient. Prove it.Show me evidence of the accuracy of the geological time scale.


Um....Radiometric dating of the rocks and sediment surrounding the fossils is my proof. As I said, it's not an exact science but it's accurate enough to show that these animals lived millions, not thousands, of years ago.

Do you have some other method of dating fossils that discounts this method? Please do share.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 08:15 AM
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I said to her, "Do you honestly believe that there is an ALLL-knowing, ALLLL-powerful, inVISible being, who created the WHOLE universe, and who lives in another dimension called heavennnnn?"
reply to post by jiggerj
 



Nothing funnier than a fool pointing out another fool hey



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 09:05 AM
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Originally posted by CoherentlyConfused
reply to post by borntowatch
 





I dont have to prove anything, you are relying on science and science has to be repeatable testable and observable or its a faith. Dont play me for a fool. The onus is on you. Prove they are ancient. Prove it.Show me evidence of the accuracy of the geological time scale.


Um....Radiometric dating of the rocks and sediment surrounding the fossils is my proof. As I said, it's not an exact science but it's accurate enough to show that these animals lived millions, not thousands, of years ago.

Do you have some other method of dating fossils that discounts this method? Please do share.



In Shia Islam we believe (as were taught by the Prophet and the Imams) in the existance of many (thousands) Adams before our Adam... our Adam was simply the last of them. (There were also other inhabited worlds created, we are not alone in the multiverse)

عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: «تأويل ذلك: أنّ اللّه تعالى إذا أفنى هذا الخلق و هذا العالم، و سكن أهل الجنّة و أهل النّار النّار، جدّد اللّه عالما غير هذا العالم، و جدّد خلقا من غير فحولة و لا إناث يعبدونه و يوحّدونه، و خلق لهم أرضا غير هذه الأرض تحملهم، و سماء غير هذه السّماء تظلّهم، لعلّك ترى أنّ اللّه إنّما خلق هذا العالم الواحد، أو ترى أنّ اللّه لم يخلق بشرا غيركم! بلى و اللّه لقد خلق ألف ألف عالم و ألف ألف آدم! أنت في آخر تلك العوالم، و أولئك الآدميّين»
الأصفى في تفسيرالقرآن، ج‏2، ص: 1200

الصدوق في كتابه (التوحيد ص277):
((أبي رحمه الله قال: حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله قال حدثنا محمد بن عيسى عن الحسن بن محبوب عن عمرو بن شمر عن جابر بن يزيد قال: سألت أبا جعفر (عليه السلام) عن قوله عز وجل: (( أََفعَيينَا بالخَلق الأَوَّل بَل هم في لَبس من خَلق جَديد )) (قّ:15), قال: يا جابر تأويل ذلك أن الله عز وجل إذا أفنى هذا الخلق وهذا العالم وسكن أهل الجنة الجنة وأهل النار النار جدد الله عالما غير هذا العالم وجدد خلق من غير فحولة ولا إناث يعبدونه ويوحدونه وخلق لهم أرضا غير هذه الأرض تحملهم وسماء غير هذه السماء تظلهم لعلك ترى ان الله إنما خلق هذا العالم الواحد وترى إن الله لم يخلق بشراً غيركم بل والله لقد خلق الله ألف ألف عالم وألف ألف آدم أنت في آخر تلك العوالم)).



In Al-Mizan, check out the tafsir of Surah Baqarah, verses 30-33. There is a tradition from Imam Sadeq [as]:

“The angels could not know what they said (Wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood), if they had not (earlier) seen someone who had made mischief in it and shed blood.” (At-Tafsir, al-‘Ayyàshi)


Also we are taught that animals were created before humans. It is really only the Christians and Jews who do not have similar teachings.
edit on 14-6-2012 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 09:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by rhinoceros

Originally posted by borntowatch
www.finalfrontier.org.uk...
The article is not dealing with the origin of life, origin of the universe Big bang or the flatness of the universe? Its just simply message sender.... message .... message receiver.
Clearly way beyond what you unsderstand

This website states the following:


DNA is composed of four amino acids:

Adenine
Thymidine
Guanine
Cytosine

Hate to break it to you, but adenine, thymidine, guanine, and cytosine, are not amino acids. They're nucleosides. This is very basic biology, and since final frontier can't get even it right, why should I care about it at all?


Originally posted by borntowatch
You didnt ask or

Make
a question you made this statement

Yes I did. I asked what "simple sender code receiver relationship" is. The reason for my asking is that I consider myself rather learned in the field of biology, but have never heard of this thing.


Originally posted by borntowatch
I am not running away from you and I can change my mind if I want and answer you.
I dont want to deal with you because you are not honest and sincere. You say things that are wrong and deny you said them as well as other things you have said. You infer I am stupid yet have no idea what I am explaining, no desire to even learn them.

You suggest I am talking about abiogenesis when I am not, and never will because as I see it, abiogenesis is beyond your intelligence.
and dear rhino you have become aggressive and rude to hide your ignorance, your evolution religion has more holes than swiss cheese in a gunfight

Simple questions need simple answers not hissy fits

Prove the geological time scale. Hint. Its not related to biology

I will do my best to prove the geological time scale after you have done your best to disprove the mountain of evidence in favor of evolution.


I chose a laymans site because I have seen no evidence to suggest you have any knowledge, still dont.
You show me the evidence of the Geo time scale so I can make fun of you. I dont have any evidence for the geo time scale to base an argument on.

Come on fella step up and convert this Christian to stupidity



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 09:16 AM
link   

Originally posted by CoherentlyConfused
reply to post by borntowatch
 





I dont have to prove anything, you are relying on science and science has to be repeatable testable and observable or its a faith. Dont play me for a fool. The onus is on you. Prove they are ancient. Prove it.Show me evidence of the accuracy of the geological time scale.


Um....Radiometric dating of the rocks and sediment surrounding the fossils is my proof. As I said, it's not an exact science but it's accurate enough to show that these animals lived millions, not thousands, of years ago.

Do you have some other method of dating fossils that discounts this method? Please do share.


Thats not evidence thats faith, thats religion.
www.google.com.au...:en-US:%7Breferrer:source?%7D&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7AD RA_enAU470&redir_esc=&ei=CfLZT-mNNeyfiAfFubX9Ag



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 09:24 AM
link   

Originally posted by borntowatch
I chose a laymans site because I have seen no evidence to suggest you have any knowledge, still dont.
You show me the evidence of the Geo time scale so I can make fun of you. I dont have any evidence for the geo time scale to base an argument on.

It's not a layman's site, but a misinformed (calling nucleosides amino acids and all that) creationist propaganda site. This is a layman's site. It evaluates the available information with no bias. I'm still waiting for you to refute the evidence for evolution. This is not related my knowledge or lack of it. Fact is thou, you will never be able to refute the evidence because it's too solid. No way around it, no matter how much you wish to believe otherwise.



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 09:27 AM
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I have seen no evidence to refute, none.
I chose a laymans site for a reason your comments suggest it suits your knowledge
You are arguing semantics instead of the issue. Best you run away now before I expose your duck and cover tactics.
The names are irrelevant as far as I am concerned. Message sender...message.... message receiver, or didnt you understand that basic concept. I can link a very scientific thorough site, ultimately the message is the same.
Why dodge and weave instead of answering, dont understand the question...scared, no answer.
Science doesnt have an answer, its that simple.

Why are you dodging, its a simple fact that science doesnt have an answer, true scientists admit it.
Why the games. What your religion being rocked is it.
edit on 14-6-2012 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 09:36 AM
link   

Originally posted by borntowatch
Thats not evidence thats faith, thats religion.


Oh well a link to a search result for a biased question that gives nothing but creationist websites and blogs proves that the vast majority of the worlds scientists are actually basing all their works on faith (read: no good reason).

The irony of these dishonest creationist posts is always both hilarious and depressing...



posted on Jun, 14 2012 @ 09:39 AM
link   

Originally posted by Prezbo369

Originally posted by borntowatch
Thats not evidence thats faith, thats religion.


Oh well a link to a search result for a biased question that gives nothing but creationist websites and blogs proves that the vast majority of the worlds scientists are actually basing all their works on faith (read: no good reason).

The irony of these dishonest creationist posts is always both hilarious and depressing...
WELL step up, stop the sooking and post your evidence, Yawn, I am bored




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