In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins

reply to post by NoJoker13


Hi just wanted to answer some of the questions I've seen you post, I've tried my best to understand what you were saying, my degree was in biochem & genetics and it appears to me that may not be your background, so I've tried to not go all nerdy .. but it's not easy.

“just because we share 98% with chimps that doesn't mean we came from them, for evolution to work properly we would have to share a 100% compatibility.”

We didn’t come from Chimps, if we shared 100% of our genome with them, then we would be Chimps and hence no evolution....

“you CANNOT shed or gain a chromosome through EVOLUTION.”

Given children with Turner syndrome are born missing a Chromosome and children with Downs have an extra chromosome, I think we can see how different numbers of chromosomes can arise.
Obviously in these 2 cases, not a great step forward, which is why the change has not proliferated because it confers significant disadvantage.

Actually your wrong about that, we can't measure the evolution of humans, that's the problem, if we could you could show me our 100% match in our past. We take something that seems right and then associate it with something else. Your science says this took place 200k years ago, not nearly enough time to rearrange chromosome structure, that type of evolution, ACCORDING TO SCIENCE, takes millions of years. Also there's the fact that an animal that evolves from a genus leaves that genus behind, so in theory why are chimps still around? Another paradox.

Actually I cannot show you an ancestor (parents, grandparents or further back), that I am a 100% match to, we are all one-off's, despite all us human's having very little genetic diversity.
That is because in general, if all goes well, I get half of my Mom’s DNA & half of my Dad’s DNA. (I.e. their double stranded DNA unzips replicates and each ovum/sperm only gets 1 set of chromosomes (made up of the DNA wound back up), which when fertilization occurs the 2 sets of chromosomes form the now growing off-spring.
Perhaps I have mis understood what you are trying to convey.

There are hardly any differences between Homo sapiens and Homo heidlebergenisis our predecessor (about 500 thousand year life span before us), most of them had smaller brains than us and most of them had thicker brow ridges, it was also the first hominid we know to have built shelters and used fire. So not sure where you are getting the idea of a chromosomal restructure 200k years ago.
Currently anthropologists are looking for the extinct Ape / Homo pre cursor species in the fossil record, which is predicted to be between 8-7 million years ago.
Interestingly American’s skulls are getting bigger … we on average apparently could now fit an extra tennis ball of brain in; this is a change over time (evolution)….
(I don't think that will help us though, Crow studies show brain size isn't actually required to be smart.)

news.nationalgeographic.com...

The one thing that’s really cool since I left university is how we have found that we really are not that different from the animals. Once we believed we were so remarkably unique, look back to what we thought in the 1960's and how we treat animals better than in previous centuries. We've been discovering that well no actually we can see these things we claimed for ourselves in other species we share the planet with… I think we are actually now down to we make "better tools/shelters" & we can "question our own existence", but given the breakthrough that’s now occurring in Dolphin communication well…..

The Discovery of Dolphin Language
Kassewitz said, “Our research has provided an answer to an age-old question highlighted by Dr Jill Tarter of the SETI Institute, ‘Are we alone?’ We can now unequivocally answer, ‘no.’ SETI’s search for non-human intelligence in outer space has been found right here on earth in the graceful form of dolphins.”
www.speakdolphin.com...



Nethanderthals ---- I'd say minor role genetically only got between 2.5-4% of their genome..however we may have picked up some cultural stuff ..

Originally posted by NoJoker13
reply to post by Furbs

 

Again I've seen the research but until I see the actual chromosome count, I'm still skeptical that Neanderthal's played a major role in human evolution, opposed to a minor one.

Yeah, I doubt Neanderthal had much of anything to do with our direct evolution. Cross species mating in mammals doesn't lend itself to viable offspring.

You can mate a male Lion and a female Tiger and get a new species, but that species (usually)can't reproduce. Same with a female Donkey and a male Horse (different amounts of chromosomes). If Humans and Neanderthals were mating, I doubt the offspring were viable, and if anything, that coupling helped wipe out Neanderthals by populating their tribes with offspring that couldn't reproduce, especially if it was something like a male Human impregnating a female Neanderthal.

Originally posted by rhinoceros

Originally posted by SoulReaper
I claim he is wrong because God defines what Love is and God has established a moral code.

How well do you know your holy book? You do understand that the Bible supports slavery, killing of women who fail to be virgins on their wedding night, stoning to death of unfaithful, etc. Some morals this God of the Bible established, huh?

A Moral Code only exists to propogate Righteous and Holy Living... Gods requirments of Israel are an example to the World of how seriously he upholds his command for man to be Holy and Blameless before him. I don't see why you care... you don't even think he exists. But if he does(as i certainly believe that he does) I would be quite hesitant to pass judgement on Gods purpose. What is man that he is mindful of him. God created Man to bring Glory to himself and to Christ, be it though mans salvation or Distruction.

On what grounds would you say that God was Wrong to bring down judgement on a sinful people? By whose authority do you uphold the right of a woman to Fornicate before marriage above Gods command to be holy and blameless? Just curious at how you can claim that the Israelites had no right to follow Gods commands and produce a hebrew society as they saw fit.

I don't apologize for What God demands of mankind, nor for the Destruction that is coming swiftly to those who oppose him. God is not a harmless genie who grants every Wish of mans heart and never holds him accountable to a standard of behavior. He is well within his rights to do whatever he wishes with what he has created.

Christians in todays age are not called in the manner that Israel was called out of Egypt... We are not to be used similarly as a weapon against the corrupt nations, rather simply as a witness of Gods Law and Christs Grace. God will take care of things himself in his own time.

As for the old testament.

Those were specific commands given to a specific people group who had entered into a LEGAL contract, a Covenant with God. They subjected themselves to the requirments of the law and subsequently to its punishments.

They did not go around subjecting NON-covenant members to the same Laws or punishments....


With the exception of the nations that God called Israel to wipe of the face of the earth... and this was for other some what complex reasons that are no longer applicable. The ancient world was a wild place compared to the current suburbia in which we live. Those nations were abominations to the human form... genetically altered and manipulated peoples who were only partially human and were part of an open war against the God of Israel via Satan and his fallen Angels. (this is speculation based on biblical and historical accounts... I cannot prove it)... suffice it to say at least in my opinion there was a lot more going on in the age of the old testement then our modern history remembers.

Soul

Originally posted by SoulReaper

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by SoulReaper

 

For instance what if a child molestor claims that he loves the child he is molesting? Who are you to tell him that he is wrong about his concept of Love?

I claim he is wrong because God defines what Love is and God has established a moral code. Where would you derive the authority to tell the child molestor that his idea of Love is in fact not love but rather evil and hurtful?

How about common sense?

His common sense and chemical impulses tell him different. where do you get off telling him that he is WRONG?

You have no answer to this... World views absent of God are also completely morally Bankrupt... Without God, Society is simply governed by Mob rule and what the "majority" decides is or is not acceptable. There is no Moral Foundation to build society off of. We are all just part of the animal kindom right? why don't we just act like animals then?

Soul

What nonsense

What defines morals is SOCIETY as a whole. If everyone randomly killed everyone, there would be chaos harming the entire community in the process. So as a SOCIETY it makes sense to set up rules that prevent bad stuff like killing randomly. It's clearly not some god because there are BILLIONS of people that don't believe in a god or gods, and they are just as good/bad as the rest of us. Morals also differ all over the world, which makes NO SENSE if there's only one god. Why is it bad to eat pork in Muslim countries while it's somehow perfectly fine for Christians? Or why an Christians use light switches Saturday while Jews can't? If it's one god that makes NO SENSE!

Either way, morals are imposed by society and either followed by individuals or not. In countries with laws (and that includes pretty much all of them), going against the rules society imposes on you results in some form of punishment. And that punishment is carried out by men, not god(s).

You might believe otherwise, but that belief isn't based on logic, rationality, or the slightest bit of objective evidence.

I claim he is wrong because God defines what Love is and God has established a moral code. Where would you derive the authority to tell the child molestor that his idea of Love is in fact not love but rather evil and hurtful?

I'd claim that science shows the kid is not an adult and therefor too young to understand the complexities of love, and that science also shows the child can be damaged for life if involved in a relationship like that. We're saying the same thing, but I'm using science and you are using faith. I've said before, the 2 concepts are not mutually exclusive, and certainly compatible. You just have to understand what constitutes as science and what constitutes as faith.

you are indeed ignorant if you do not understand the purpose behind Forcing Evolutionary thought to be taught in our high schools and colleges.

If you have not read the major evolutionary proponants, scientist, philosophers ect then I suppose you could be so misguided.

there are orginizations specifically formed to push Evolutionary teaching in schools for the express purpose of Keeping any talk of God and his work of Creation out of the schools.

Again just because you personally might not have this vendetta... you are blind and ignorant to deny its presence in society.

So basically your response is simply, "You're ignorant, you lose", without thoroughly explaining or backing up anything to do with the science. Great. You can't just pretend the scientific evidence behind evolution doesn't exist. I posted a whole bunch of links. Evolution is a scientific theory and is appropriately taught in a science class. That's what science classes are for. Are you claiming the science behind evolution is bad? I humbly request you to back that statement up. Show this ignorant man the truth.

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by SoulReaper

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by SoulReaper
I claim he is wrong because God defines what Love is and God has established a moral code. Where would you derive the authority to tell the child molestor that his idea of Love is in fact not love but rather evil and hurtful?

Oh, so molesting children is wrong because God defined what Love is, not because molesting children stunts emotional growth in the children and can lead into turning those children into abusive individuals themselves?

I see now.

Survival of the fittest right?

the child is the weaker of the species....

Why does the Child have any right to a good healthy life? the child is just a souless meaningless animal. Devoid of Value... just a chemical spec in the universe.

Where do you get off placing value on the Child or his or her quality of Life?

The Child Molestor sees that Child as useful to fulfill his "loving" impluses. Who are you to tell him that the Child is worthy of more then that?

Where do you get the authority to tell him different?

Soul

I tell him what I feel is right because it is how I am, and I do not need to bow to a "God" for my moral compass.

Funny you should mention child molesters. Certainly there aren't any child molesters doing "God's work", eh?

No there arn't... there are a multitude of False Believers and fakers.... Good job identifying them... but then again who are you to tell them that they are wrong.

There is no Moral Authority right?

How can you disaprove of the brilliance of thier own individual evolution?

I'll tell them they are wrong based on the moral authority derived from God and their reckoning is coming...

Soul

Originally posted by SoulReaper

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by SoulReaper

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by SoulReaper
I claim he is wrong because God defines what Love is and God has established a moral code. Where would you derive the authority to tell the child molestor that his idea of Love is in fact not love but rather evil and hurtful?

Oh, so molesting children is wrong because God defined what Love is, not because molesting children stunts emotional growth in the children and can lead into turning those children into abusive individuals themselves?

I see now.

Survival of the fittest right?

the child is the weaker of the species....

Why does the Child have any right to a good healthy life? the child is just a souless meaningless animal. Devoid of Value... just a chemical spec in the universe.

Where do you get off placing value on the Child or his or her quality of Life?

The Child Molestor sees that Child as useful to fulfill his "loving" impluses. Who are you to tell him that the Child is worthy of more then that?

Where do you get the authority to tell him different?

Soul

I tell him what I feel is right because it is how I am, and I do not need to bow to a "God" for my moral compass.

Funny you should mention child molesters. Certainly there aren't any child molesters doing "God's work", eh?

No there arn't... there are a multitude of False Believers and fakers.... Good job identifying them... but then again who are you to tell them that they are wrong.

Really? Because I see a bunch of guys saying the same kinds of things you are saying, except they are saying them in defense of their actions against children. They quote the same book. They say God will punish those that disagree with them. Why are you right and they are wrong? You guys are preaching from the same book, aren't you?

reply to post by MrXYZ


like I said... without God it is just mob rule by force.... those sentiments can and do change and of course they are different across the world.

It doesn't change the fact that your "Moral" compass is simply what feels right to you and would like to see others held to the same standard.

There is no Moral foundation here... it is just what your chemical impulses happen to find acceptable or detestable right?

So if Society as a whole decided that All religious people where a hinderance on society and holding back the collective evolution of mankind... would you object to their extermination?

soul

reply to post by SoulReaper


Why would I agree to your extermination? Of course not...and I assure you, that has NOTHING to do with a belief in god

Speaking about morality and god...which god are you talking about? Because most of them are genocidal bastards...like the Christian god:



Of course there is no god (at least we have no evidence of one or more than one) in the first place, so the "genocidal bastards" are those using FICTION to justify their horrible actions.

reply to post by Furbs


They won't answer to me... unlike secular society.. it isn't up to me or the collective to determine right from wrong.

I am not the judge... God is. we will both answer to him in due time and it is on God to uphold his righteous law... not me.

Where in the Bible does it teach people to molest children? just curious, how is it that you claim they are teaching this from the Bible?

Rather Sin is Sin, no matter who is doing it. i proclaim Gods law and accountability to his standards.... I'm not afraid of my death bed.

You will find out when you reach yours whether or not God is real... I hope you find him sooner.

Soul

reply to post by SoulReaper

I am not the judge... God is. we will both answer to him in due time and it is on God to uphold his righteous law... not me.

Which god? So Sharia law's ok?

And regarding child abuse sanctioned by god: Proverbs 22:15 More examples in the pic above...

Originally posted by SoulReaper
reply to post by Furbs

 

They won't answer to me... unlike secular society.. it isn't up to me or the collective to determine right from wrong.

I am not the judge... God is. we will both answer to him in due time and it is on God to uphold his righteous law... not me.

Where in the Bible does it teach people to molest children? just curious, how is it that you claim they are teaching this from the Bible?

Rather Sin is Sin, no matter who is doing it. i proclaim Gods law and accountability to his standards.... I'm not afraid of my death bed.

You will find out when you reach yours whether or not God is real... I hope you find him sooner.

Soul

edit on 7-6-2012 by SoulReaper because: (no reason given)

I don't care if you are or aren't the judge. How can you claim an ambiguous source of morality is the infallible word of God and is the only true moral compass? It would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

Here is a nice little passage for yourself about God being cool with taking of virgin children. Numbers 31:18

reply to post by MrXYZ


Have you even read those passages??

I spank my kids, you think that is child abuse?

God giving commands to discourage promiscuous behavior is not condoning rape.

honestly could you be any more intentionally misleading...

btw I don't agree with the israelites practice of having slaves, but apparently God was more concerned with how you treat them, not if you have them and he insisted on them going free after 6 years of service.

I don't think any Christian is going to apologize for not tolerating Sin within their own homes. And Pauls view of Woman is for the Church only and even then... it is just his view... Paul never considered his own letters to be "Gods Word". Rather when he referenced scripture he was referring to the Torah.

Soul

reply to post by AliceBlackman


I understand everything you said, although could you please post a link to something GOOD that happens to humans that gain or lose a chromosome, Down syndrome only solidifies the claim that gaining or losing a chromosome down the line equals bad news... not good news. Again an apple is always an apple and can't be an orange.

reply to post by AliceBlackman


Also I've always seen humans as being something unnatural on this planet because how we consume compared to other animals, I've always highly respected and connected with animals more then people, people are dumb, people waste. So with that being said and your backround in BIOCHEM wouldn't you think that's extremely odd that there isn't another being on the planet that wastes as much as humans do? I mean realistically humans are a one off, a paradox that doesn't make sense when compared to other 'mammals'. However little or much we have in common with others.

reply to post by Furbs


Like I said... there was a lot more going on in the ancient world then we realize and God used Israel as a weapon of Vengence upon corrupt nations.... Primarily to help prevent Israel from becoming corrupt themselves.

it isn't like Israel was some super righteous bunch... that was the call of Moses in numbers 31... not God.. in fact God sent a plague on their congregation because of their actions... God was utlizing a sinful and flawed nation to bring about his judgement according to his own purposes... That doesn't mean that he approves of all of their decisions.

there are some pretty aweful stories in the old testement of people acting quite poorly. I don't feel the need to defend them.. or God.

If you don't like it... you can take it up with him yourself.

Soul

Originally posted by SoulReaper
reply to post by Furbs

 

Like I said... there was a lot more going on in the ancient world then we realize and God used Israel as a weapon of Vengence upon corrupt nations.... Primarily to help prevent Israel from becoming corrupt themselves.

it isn't like Israel was some super righteous bunch... that was the call of Moses in numbers 31... not God.. in fact God sent a plague on their congregation because of their actions... God was utlizing a sinful and flawed nation to bring about his judgement according to his own purposes... That doesn't mean that he approves of all of their decisions.

there are some pretty aweful stories in the old testement of people acting quite poorly. I don't feel the need to defend them.. or God.

If you don't like it... you can take it up with him yourself.

Soul

edit on 7-6-2012 by SoulReaper because: (no reason given)

LOL

You don't feel the need to defend God. How easy for you. Must be real easy to go through life not having to think because there is a book that tells you what is right and what is wrong, and when you happen to disagree with one aspect of it, you can merely shrug it off as God meaning something else, or that this portion no longer pertains to your specific instance.

Situational Ethics at its best.

Luckily for me, I have Secular Ethics that work on logic and critical thinking.

This pretty much sums up the creationist logic when they deny evolution. Somebody posted this picture in here a whiles back. Dead on 100%.

reply to post by Furbs


Its not hard to understand that Christians are not under the Covenantal law of the Hebrews.

And Further... God is free to do whatever he wants.. he isn't subject to any human laws...

God is not against Death.

Death is well within his purpose for every human, each at their appointed time according to his own purposes.

This doesn't mean that Christians are called to do all of Gods work for him... so in other words I don't need to defend God because I don't dictate to him what he should or shouldn't do... and neither do i take on his responsibilities. Vengence belongs to God, not man.

Israel was a unique circumstance, a unique nation, and God used them in a unique way.

I am not part of the nation of Israel and clearly not everything God commanded them to do applies to me.

I suppose I shouldn't expect you to understand, not that it matters to you anyways. Ignorance of the primary tenants of Christianity is rampant in secular society.

Soul

reply to post by Barcs


take a look at this link to see how the Theory of Evolution is just a bunch of drivel.. Some good quotes from famous evolutionists as well

www.ecclesia.org...

Soul