In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins

Originally posted by CB328

If someone beleives in god, why are you butt hurt.

Because those god believing people oppress and kill everyone else.

Wow. Every time people talk about religion someone brings up the Crusades and the Inquisition.

I almost can't argue with ignorance, but I will try to put a stop to this once and for all.

All I can say is that if you knew history, you wouldn't repeat the same lies every time. Find something else to not like about us.

Christians throughout history(after Christ) were peace loving. In fact people didn't like them because they were minorities in many countries and would kill them, arrest them, etc.

Did you know that after Christ died the Gospel went all the way to China. Yes, there were Christians in China.

Christians lived like this for more than 300 years after the death of Christ. They were minorities in many countries where no one liked them, not even the Jews would have them. The way Christians were killed, in many instances, is to graphic to describe.

Minding their own business, keeping their head down. Even having to go so far as to hide the fact that they were Christians in many places. They were killed and persecuted. Christianity wasn't legal in the Roman empire until 313AD. That is more than 300 years after Christ was resurrected.

Were they killing people???

NO, they were being killed.

By who????

The same people who ran the Crusades and the Inquisition. Don't believe me? Read on.

Emperor Constantine spent a good portion of his life killing Christians in the Roman empire. He later converted. How? The story I remember is: It was night and he saw a cross in the sky and heard a voice say "In this sign conquer." After that he converted.

He put the sign of the cross on everything his soldiers had. Before Constantine was a "Christian" he was a Pagan(he worshipped more than one god). Today we would say they are witches, devil worshippers, etc. They didn't automatically convert, the Roman Empire was still very much Pagan. Pagans parading as newly converted Christians did those things like the Inquisition and the Crusades and the Killings. There is nothing throughout the life of Constantine to say that he truly converted to Christianity, he still worshipped Pagan gods.

Yes, it was really Pagans who executed Christians! And once pagans took over Christianity they continued to killed everyone else. The Romans had always killed and conquered people, now they had a reason to do it - IN the name of "god".

All Christians were forced to abide under ONE religious umbrella, which was the Catholic church, which had never ever happened before. Not even Jews abide under one religious order. They practiced according to the word of God. Now all Christians would have to practice according to the word of one man - the Pope.

Guess who was the first pope, none other than Emperor Constantine himself.

The Catholic church held the known world in a political and religious vise grip for hundreds of years, even giving way to the Dark Ages. The Catholic church was a economic pimp who used religion to control and tax the masses.

All you would have to do is read the Bible to see this is not Christianity. Read the words of Christ, there is no violence and no killing, no stealing, murdering, raping. Christ clearly said he didn't come to set up a kingdom in this world. Christianity didn't start with Catholicism and it sure won't end with it. They capitalized on religious fervor much like we see today.

"Conquer in this sign/name" really means kill a bunch of people and blame it on God. No wonder people rejected Christianity. How can you accept a religion when your whole village has been destroyed. More than a thousand years later people still blame these events on Christianity, which had by that time been railroaded by Pagans.

I would argue today that the Catholic church is very much still pagan to this day. If the Catholic church bombed India today, you still couldn't blame it on Christians because they still practice paganism in their churches. Light cannot exist with darkness. They can't be both a pagan and a Christian.

reply to post by INDOMITABLE

So in your opinion, what did inquisition, and who and for what reason fought crusade wars.

You right, it is not Christianity, it is someone abusing power with excuse of doing 'god's will', just the same as terrorist are doing today with use of Qur'an.

Main reason that this is possible is fact that those books are not meant as definite answer to all of our questions, but those (ab)using them are trying to make them as 'final' answer and last 'God's will'.

Originally posted by Erectus
It is a fact that 1 in 2 adults never reach the final stage of cognitive development. They are incapable of reaching original conclusions. Instead they believe what their trusted institutions tell them.

I'm interested in this sort of thing. Can you provide me a valid source where I can read more about this that half of all adults never reach the final stage of cog development?

Originally posted by SuperFrog

David Christian: Big history

I am really interested in comments of religious people about this video. (as most Ted Talks videos, only 17:40 min)

This is not an explanation for the Origin Source... this is a video about the Evolutionary Fairy Tale... a Story that is made up and the majorty of the events which are Claimed to have happened in this video are completely unproven and have absolutlly Zero scientific basis whatsoever.

Most of these Events were not Discovered via the Scientific Method, have never been observed in Nature and are merely made up speculation to be believed Blindly in a desperate attempt to create a senario that does not include God.

Its amazing how supposedly "Smarter" and more " intelligent" people will act like they know For Sure what events occured "billions" of years ago even though they have zero evidence to back it up.

Just because you say that these things happened over and over does not make it true.

His Story starts with the Big Bang from the Miraculous existence of the Primordial Singularity. Where did the Primordial Singularity come from I ask you?

This man seems to know copious scientific facts, and then shows he fails to understand what science is all about, by interjecting wishful dogma. The essence of science is, all such presumptions should be subject to criticism of their validity. Subjects need not be rigorously provable to be considered, but they must be of such nature as there exists the possibility of either provability or disprovability, at some time, even if in the future.

This is the difference between dogma and science. Dogma does not allow itself to be tested, but must be accepted upon faith. Science is a totally different matter, though the two are not mutually exclusive, they still cannot be mixed. Ignorant people like to banter about science and get attention as being learned.

This is the same boring story that was made up 50 years ago. It is the same story that relies on a system of Beliefs regarding a number of completely unproven assumptions to provide a foundation for its conclusions.

What secular science has now done is to attempt to build and warp all continuing investigations to match the mold of these same old boring conclusions. While at the same time failing to acknowledge that they have yet to ascertain the truth of the assumptions which provide the foundation of their theory.

It is nothing more then faith in speculation. Amazingly so many people such as yourself run around like lemmings, pretending that this is "known" scientific fact. How easily you are controled by such an obvious delusion.

I'll continue to rest in my theology with a Faith in God as its foundation.
I find it far more reasonable and logical then the nonsense put forth in that video. Good luck placing your Faith in Fairy Tales and Magic singularities.

Soul

Originally posted by MrXYZ
Love how SoulReaper is advocating Sharia law

Good luck making this stick...

Christians arn't Muslims... I know its hard to understand the difference... uhh actually its not but I suppose its difficult to perceive much of anything when your wandering around in an intellectual Haze.

Soul

reply to post by Barcs


you know Barcs I'm beginning to think that you are slightly slow.

Evolution as a theory is being set forth by secular science as an alternative to Creation by God.

Just because you do not make the specific arguments regarding the Primordial soup or the Big Bang... or the Primordial Singularity does not mean that this arguments are not made under the pretense of the Evolutionary Theory.

So you can continue to obfuscate and pretend that all the nonsense is not related to the Evolutionary theory...

But it is in fact related to it and born out of it and the majority of its claims are completely unproven and are arrived at in a decidedly unscientific manner.

We are not talking about minor biological changes or evolution due to changes in environment or stimulus. I do not deny this and none of these findings in any way disprove our Origin from a Creator... nor do they Prove the grand scope of the Big Bang fairy tale without a Creator.

That page that I linked raises Very ligitamate questions regarding the absurd claims associated with the Accepted main stream theory regarding the Big Bang. You have no answers for those questions and you have no science to show that the accepted main stream theory has merit.

Eventually you will figure out that noone here is arguing about the limited scope of so called "micro" evolution. Our view here is quite a bit broader and your behind the ball, please try to keep up.

Soul

Originally posted by 11235813213455
reply to post by blackcube

 

I guess all you faithless will find out eventually wont you? Hopefully you see the truth in the lords day.

Otherwise....... sizzle sizzle crackle pop :-)

Sure, dude. Whatever. I'll take my chances. LOL.

reply to post by SoulReaper


I do not see how the Big Bang is incompatible with the concept of a creator God, all the Big Bang does is say that there was a big bang and the universe we live in expanded from that Bang. It does not answer how the Bang came into being. Some theories now think it was a "bubble off" event from other multi verses but that still tells us nothing about how or why this would have initiated.

Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning, (100% compatible with a creator creating). Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe. The big bang theory is an effort to explain what happened during and after that moment.

According to the standard theory, our universe sprang into existence as "singularity" around 13.7 billion years ago. What is a "singularity" and where does it come from? Science doesn't know. Singularities are zones which defy our current understanding of physics. They are thought to exist at the core of "black holes." Black holes are areas of intense gravitational pressure. The pressure is thought to be so intense that finite matter is actually squished into infinite density (a mathematical concept which truly boggles the mind). These zones of infinite density are called "singularities." Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity. Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know.

So I see nowhere here that contradicts the prescence of an eternal creator, it also ties in with the you can not be in the actual physical prescence of God without being destroyed.

Evolution is the same, it doesn't disprove a creator.

If I decide I'm going to build a computer model to let say create and build a protein (Insulin is an example of a protein), I write the code, I add in the variables, knowing what I want to create, lets say this takes me 7 days, I then hit the enter button to execute the code and hours / days / weeks later viola the model gives me the completed folded protein.

It would appear when the program finishes that it just right then popped into creation, if I look back at all the stages of computation, I see the structure "evolved" with numerous changes along the way. Can we say that because I verified these changes that this disproves someone wrote a program with an end result in mind ? No I can not....

Lets say the sun and earth suddenly pops into existance, on average it will take 8 minutes for me to see the light from the sun. Does that mean it took 8 minutes to create the light or it took 8 minutes for me to see the light ? Obviously 8 minutes for me, 0 minutes for the sun.

There is no contradiction, none of what we have observed gets in the way of a creator, intelligently deciding what to create and creating it in the timescale "he" took.

Why is Genesis so "simple" if it was infact a more complicated process ? I say how many people would understand, (especially before we had electron microscopes, particle accelerators etc.) all the complex processes and interaction, information and physical laws that went into creation... if it read like an advanced physics text book, even today ?

Science is not a lie, it's not a hoax, if it was we'd still be living out under the stars, each one of our generations understands more and more about the world around us and still that knowledge hasn't removed the innate sense alot of us have that there is the divine.

Originally posted by Erectus
It is a fact that 1 in 2 adults never reach the final stage of cognitive development. They are incapable of reaching original conclusions. Instead they believe what their trusted institutions tell them. Such institutions include family, government, and church. This is not a belief, but is, unlike some things, empirically supported (that means there is actually evidence). This is a fine example of what is wrong with this nation. Half the population can't even think for themselves.

So.

I wonder which half does the majority of this 46% fall into?

Wether you listen to a scientist or your pastor you're going to be trusting somebody for information.

I'll just leave this here... Sums up my view on modern organized religion, creationist/evolution views pretty damn well.

Originally posted by SoulReaper
reply to post by Barcs

 

take a look at this link to see how the Theory of Evolution is just a bunch of drivel.. Some good quotes from famous evolutionists as well

www.ecclesia.org...

Soul

I agree that there are people that POINT to Science to validate their belief that there is no God, but Science itself does not say that, and I wasn’t ever taught that during my education either.
As for the religious link provided to show that Science is lying about “facts” of evolution.
First not one link to a single scientific source to back up their "scientific" claims……
However, I’ll play along for a bit, even in the knowledge that it’s practically impossible to change a person’s mind once their opinion is formed due to the process of cognitive dissonance.
So let’s take the “nothing can withstand the UV rays” …wrong some bacteria can… what do large numbers of bacteria do, they produce Gas…some bacteria even produce oxygen.
And this made me chuckle “Natural selection cannot produce new genes; it only selects among preexisting characteristics.” ….mutations give rise to new gene’s, natural selection lets you know which ones are beneficial or do not get in the way of survival….so how exactly is that a pertinent point other than either a sad misunderstanding of the science or worse a willful deceit?

Let's start from beginning...

Originally posted by SoulReaper

This is not an explanation for the Origin Source... this is a video about the Evolutionary Fairy Tale... a Story that is made up and the majorty of the events which are Claimed to have happened in this video are completely unproven and have absolutlly Zero scientific basis whatsoever.

Really, how come? All scientific theories are doing is proving something is possible or not, in this case, quite possible. We know that universe is expending, we know how stars get born, how they die, we know what they made of. You might say that they are just guessing, but for example,. based on scientific theories Karl Sagan was able to predict conditions and atmosphere of Venus much before first human made craft landed on it.

Most of these Events were not Discovered via the Scientific Method, have never been observed in Nature and are merely made up speculation to be believed Blindly in a desperate attempt to create a senario that does not include God.

Why god has to be part of it? Just to make you feel better?

Its amazing how supposedly "Smarter" and more " intelligent" people will act like they know For Sure what events occured "billions" of years ago even though they have zero evidence to back it up.

No, it is much easier to believe that world is only 6000 years old, even all evidence shows otherwise.

Just because you say that these things happened over and over does not make it true.

Now you are talking about religion, right?

His Story starts with the Big Bang from the Miraculous existence of the Primordial Singularity. Where did the Primordial Singularity come from I ask you?

There are theories, and some scietists are even trying to make 'other universes'. Scary, human not only created God, but acts like one as well.

This man seems to know copious scientific facts, and then shows he fails to understand what science is all about, by interjecting wishful dogma. The essence of science is, all such presumptions should be subject to criticism of their validity. Subjects need not be rigorously provable to be considered, but they must be of such nature as there exists the possibility of either provability or disprovability, at some time, even if in the future.

So, in other words, he has no idea what is he talking about, just because it does not fit your set of rules?

This is the difference between dogma and science. Dogma does not allow itself to be tested, but must be accepted upon faith. Science is a totally different matter, though the two are not mutually exclusive, they still cannot be mixed. Ignorant people like to banter about science and get attention as being learned.

Who is ignorant? Someone who bases his believes on facts and proven things, or someone who puts all hopes in something so many times proven wrong??

This is the same boring story that was made up 50 years ago. It is the same story that relies on a system of Beliefs regarding a number of completely unproven assumptions to provide a foundation for its conclusions.

What secular science has now done is to attempt to build and warp all continuing investigations to match the mold of these same old boring conclusions. While at the same time failing to acknowledge that they have yet to ascertain the truth of the assumptions which provide the foundation of their theory.

It is nothing more then faith in speculation. Amazingly so many people such as yourself run around like lemmings, pretending that this is "known" scientific fact. How easily you are controled by such an obvious delusion.

I'll continue to rest in my theology with a Faith in God as its foundation.
I find it far more reasonable and logical then the nonsense put forth in that video. Good luck placing your Faith in Fairy Tales and Magic singularities.

Soul

Interesting, fairy tales where all so called holy books belong, but not on children department, tho. There are things in there that I would not suggest kids to read until older.

Originally posted by CaptainNemo


Wether you listen to a scientist or your pastor you're going to be trusting somebody for information.

In one case you can base your believes on your own findings, where in other case it's pure belief, even many things in sacred books being proven wrong.

If you are not a Christian but you love science and space exploration watch this video.

If you are a Christian watch this video also, it will strengthen your faith.

Yes this is for all of the evolutionist too. He doesn't talk about evolution per se, he mainly talks about the space and stars, and the amazement of the human body. But he brings everything back to God.

I find the information on the human body utterly amazing.

It is hands down one of THE MOST POWERFUL videos I have ever seen in my life. You will be in AWE.

reply to post by Lionhearte


Here is one for you. You believe what ever you want to believe!

Really, the point of debate is such a moot point at this stage in our society. We have clear lines drawn. The science folk do not want to listen to the bible thumpers. And the Bible thumpers do not want to listen to the science.
So what you have is two groups, who start acting like children!!!

You both wrong how bout that??
Science and religion are both wrong.. NO one ever wants to point that out.
And when you do.. You find religion and science have a common foe, and you group up and gang up on the person who says your both wrong.
Well at least you where able to work together for a few minutes while tearing me a new one.

Now try that without my influence and see what you all learn..
Peace

Originally posted by zysin5
Science and religion are both wrong.. NO one ever wants to point that out.

Science -aims- to be wrong. That is what furthers scientific pursuit.

Every time science is wrong, humans have eliminated a possibility. When enough possibilities are eliminated, what you have left, when verifiable, is the actuality.

reply to post by INDOMITABLE


The entire video can be basically summarized like this: "Look at how beautiful/amazing this is...god did it!"

He's wowing you with some amazing facts (like the size of some stars), and then simply claims god's involvement without providing any proof.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by INDOMITABLE

 

The entire video can be basically summarized like this: "Look at how beautiful/amazing this is...god did it!"

He's wowing you with some amazing facts (like the size of some stars), and then simply claims god's involvement without providing any proof.

Did you watch the entire video? No, but I implore you to start at 19:30 to get to the point on the human body. I think this might be more up your alley. Can you prove evolution? NO, need I say more.

Get your head out the sand and realize this world didn't create itself, neither did the universe create itself in a big bang. lol I find that super fairy tale-ish.

I cannot walk up to a beautiful Mercedes Benz in the Sahara desert and think wow evolution made this. German engineering cannot be created by chance EVER, so why would you believe everything you see was created by chance.

You can have 100 trillion years and the Earth still will never create an automobile(I'm sure you would agree), but you believe that somehow we were created by chance. Speak for yourself.

Don't you know the human body is more complicated than a car, your body replicates itself, fixes itself, understands itself. Give yourself some credit.

I will have to find the link, but a guy talks about the probability of evolution purely from a statistical point and he said that the possibility of things you think are impossible are statistically MORE probable than evolution. Basically evolution is more impossible than the impossible.

Don't DEMAND proof until you can provide proof of evolution. Use the amazing brain God has given you. Yes the circuitry in your brain did not evolve. It was created.

If you open your heart and open your mind you will see the truth staring you in the face. If you keep your heart and mind closed even the most obvious information will elude you.

Originally posted by AliceBlackman
reply to post by SoulReaper

 

I do not see how the Big Bang is incompatible with the concept of a creator God, all the Big Bang does is say that there was a big bang and the universe we live in expanded from that Bang. It does not answer how the Bang came into being. Some theories now think it was a "bubble off" event from other multi verses but that still tells us nothing about how or why this would have initiated.

I actually completely agree with you that the the Big bang theory has no substitue for God and is not necessarily incompatible.

However when I ask Atheists and Non-Deists to provide me with an Alternative to a Creator God as an Origin source... I am consistantly refered to the "BIG BANG" theory as if this is Known Science that explains our Origins without God.

It doesn't... but they continually act like it does... there is mass cognative dissonence at work here. So while you may well have a clear head regarding the limitations of the Big bang theory... many do not.

And lets not forget that the Majority of the Big bang theory is unproven speculation... it is not KNOWN FACT that the proposed events occur as they claim over the past 13.7 billion years.

On top of this there are many LARGE problems with the validity of the theory. These problems arise out of Science, not relegion... according to many observations of the universe as it exists and functions today... large portions of the big bang theory Appear to be untenable and unworkable. As such it requires belief in Magical things occuring against mind boggling odds and at times against the very "laws" of physics.

Soul

reply to post by SuperFrog


I don't shrink from the fact that my Theology has its foundation based in Faith in God.

I have no need to "prove" through science and the Physical world that there is indeed a non-physical Spirit world and that my God exists there. This would be impossible anyways.. it is impossible to use the physical world to observe and test the non-physical world.

Gods plane of existence is beyond our reach, we cannot obtain a sample of him to run lab tests... our plane of existence however is well within his reach. I believe this according to Faith, not based on science.

That being said, there is NOTHING that science has discovered or ever could discover that could prove that my God does not exist. Sorry, by his very definition my Infinite God is beyond finite mans ability to quantify as verifiably nonexistant.

What i am pointing out to you is that the beliefs stemming out of the Big Bang theory are not proven science... and in fact Ironically Science is the greatest enemy of the Evolutionist. The more we discover about the complexity of a living organizism the more impossible the speculation of a universe devoid of a creator God becomes.

I'd love to discuss the actual science with you.. are you up for it? I'd rather think you are deathly afraid to actually get into the details...

God is not on trial here, nor can belief in God be put on trial for it based on Faith.

However a viewpoint that is supposedly based purely in Science can be put on trial and in this case your viewpoint looks more and more rediculous the closer and closer one looks at it.

Soul

Originally posted by SoulReaper

Originally posted by AliceBlackman
reply to post by SoulReaper

 

I actually completely agree with you that the the Big bang theory has no substitue for God and is not necessarily incompatible.

And lets not forget that the Majority of the Big bang theory is unproven speculation... it is not KNOWN FACT that the proposed events occur as they claim over the past 13.7 billion years.

On top of this there are many LARGE problems with the validity of the theory. These problems arise out of Science, not relegion... according to many observations of the universe as it exists and functions today... large portions of the big bang theory Appear to be untenable and unworkable. As such it requires belief in Magical things occuring against mind boggling odds and at times against the very "laws" of physics.


Be good to hear which parts of the Theory you believe to be untenable and unworkable....and which parts of the theory are against our current understanding of laws of physics.

Do you agree the doppler effect is real?

Do you agree that the Universe is expanding ?

edit on 9-6-2012 by AliceBlackman because: (no reason given)