In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins

Originally posted by SoulReaper
reply to post by Furbs

 

Its not hard to understand that Christians are not under the Covenantal law of the Hebrews.

And Further... God is free to do whatever he wants.. he isn't subject to any human laws...

God is not against Death.

Death is well within his purpose for every human, each at their appointed time according to his own purposes.

This doesn't mean that Christians are called to do all of Gods work for him... so in other words I don't need to defend God because I don't dictate to him what he should or shouldn't do... and neither do i take on his responsibilities. Vengence belongs to God, not man.

Israel was a unique circumstance, a unique nation, and God used them in a unique way.

I am not part of the nation of Israel and clearly not everything God commanded them to do applies to me.

I suppose I shouldn't expect you to understand, not that it matters to you anyways. Ignorance of the primary tenants of Christianity is rampant in secular society.

Soul

Is there any reason for a secular humanist to learn the tenants of Christianity? They do not apply to me.

reply to post by WormwoodSquirm

This information that you have provided is BULL S#!%!

If anyone clicks the link it is more of a comedy show! LOL!

Split Infinity

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by six67seven
What's funny is most creationists and evolutionists have the same problem. Most of each group only know 'half' of what they think they know.

I know I don't believe in ancient myths. I know I believe in science. That position doesn't win me friends, but it keeps me sane.

Science changes, gets updated/corrected all the time, evolves. It's probably easier for those opposite of you that don't have to update and change their views constantly. I would think that keeps them sane as well. See, there are two sides to every argument. Just being devil's advocate.

Originally posted by rhinoceros
That's not what the abstract said. It said that the ITSs are not located at the exact evolutionary breakpoints of the inversions between human and chimpanzee and between human and rhesus macaque chromosomes.

Yes it is. It says right there! two separate comparisons, It's not comparing two comparisons. Sheesh!

Originally posted by Barcs
Which part of that mentions the fusion and compares the exact fused chromosomes to the non fused chimp ones? I don't see how that's relevant at all.

The fused chromosome is the ONLY one that lines up. And it's just as equally possible the fusion occured exclusively in the human lineage, ther is no need to invoke an evolutionary connection especially when it is the only one that lines up.

You also reject the determined mutation rates supplied by the very science you are trying to defend, the environment is limited in how much it can speed the proposed mechanism, as each mutaton must become fixed in the population.

100 million years for two mutations!

So, what is the significance of the cited paper? Though there are many documented instances of these interstitial telomeric sequences in the genomes of humans and chimps, the 2q13 interstitial telomeric sequence is the only one which is able to be associated with an evolutionary breakage point or fusion. The other ones do not square up with chromosomal breakpoints in primates at all!

www.uncommondescent.com...

all the known ITSs, and there are many in the genomes of chimps and humans, as well as mice and rats and cows..., the 2q13 ITS is the only one that can be associated with an evolutionary breakpoint or fusion. The other ITSs, I hasten to add, do not square up with chromosomal breakpoints in primates (Farré M, Ponsà M, Bosch M. 2009. "Interstitial telomeric sequences (ITSs) are not located at the exact evolutionary breakpoints in primates," Cytogenetic and Genome Research 124(2): 128-131.). In brief, to hone in on the 2q13 ITS as being typical of what we see in the human and chimp genomes seems almost like cherry-picking data. Most are not DNA scars in the way they have been portrayed.

From Richard SternBerg. I think he his much more qualified than either of us.

Oh except for Barcs apparently he's smarter than anyone who doesn't buy into the dogma.

Originally posted by Masterjaden
You don't understand the difference between science and the scientific paradigms, do you?... There's nothing but blind faith in the paradigms. The theory of Evolution is a paradigm of science. It is NOT science.

Jaden

And if you repeat that 1000 times - it will become truth.... or maybe not...

We provided more then enough evidence on this topic that evolution is scientific method that proves that humans as well all other life change, adopt to surrounding and that life with evolution process become more diversified.

In whole topic not a single time I saw any proof of evolution not being scientific, except your wishes, and as I have already mentioned it - repeating your wishes will not make them truth.

Originally posted by SoulReaper
reply to post by SuperFrog

 

Science does not cover everything.

Explain to me how Science has proven what is the Origin Source for all life, matter and energy?

You can't and yet you act like you can. delusion made manifest?

Well, if you are willing to listen, here is 'big history', from beinning of world to internet...

David Christian: Big history

I am really interested in comments of religious people about this video. (as most Ted Talks videos, only 17:40 min)

Originally posted by SoulReaper
i did not say you cannot have some perception of these things... but you cannot properly grasp them without Faith that they are established by a higher being.

For instance what if a child molestor claims that he loves the child he is molesting? Who are you to tell him that he is wrong about his concept of Love?

I claim he is wrong because God defines what Love is and God has established a moral code. Where would you derive the authority to tell the child molestor that his idea of Love is in fact not love but rather evil and hurtful?

Without God society supposedly governs what is "acceptable" and not acceptable... but cannot establish right from wrong. What if the Child molestor is a More Evolved Human who understands Love better then you do?

What reference do we have for right and wrong if we are all just following evolved chemical impulses?

Soul

So as I am atheist since childbirth, how come I do grasp those concept much better then many religious people.

Actually as mater of fact, I believe that I have higher moral standards then MOST religious people. I do believe in equality between people (church supported slavery, divisions between people, many religious wars...), that every one has right to select who he/she will mate with, regardless of sex of other person (what church said about it), that women are just capable of everything like men (where is women place in religions across the world??), that people are ready for marriage and kids after 18/20 years of age (where our ancestors had a bit lower standards...)...

All those concept that I value, I learned them from our history, from books of people who found more important to scientifically evaluate human behavior instead in pure belief that everyone will follow moral norms after being offered riches after death as reward for 'hard' life on earth.

I do not tell you to believe or not, it is your personal choice, but please, again PLEASE do not make assumptions that if you repeat something without any proofs it will become fact.

For those interested in debate of existence of god: David Wolpe and Christopher Hitchens: The Great God Debate

That's it guys, keep this thread going. I have a $100 bet with a mate that it'll reach 40 pages. So PLEASE keep it going. Wow, just imagine if we can reach 40 pages of guff. Again I say, qudos to the believers who care enough for their fellow man to try and "save" him and again I say to those who have finally given up believing in fairy tales and make believe stories that there is no way anyone can change the mind of a person who is trapped in the dogme mindset. Have a great day and please, get this thread to 40 pages, I want my $100

Love how SoulReaper is advocating Sharia law

Originally posted by Lionhearte

Originally posted by HumanCondition
46% of the US has a serious social mental illness.

Translation-

46% of the US is retarded, and I am more intelligent then those 143 million people.

To the rest of you- Evolution is a theory and has NOT been observed, never, ever, ever. It has never been proven, and it is not science.

Debate me, I challenge you. Any claim, any question, any attack- I accept all.

Genetics pretty much put a nail in the coffin for creationists. Here you go:

www.youtube.com...

Let me know.

Interesting. What's also very interesting is that South Korea is ranked as #1 in education in the entire world. So while the flame war commences on both sides maybe we should all stop and think about that for a moment. The average South Korean is likely more intelligent than 70% of ATS'ers. So stop for just one moment, and open your mind to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, they're onto something here.

reply to post by Jaydee055


That decision was highly influenced by Christian-backed organizations and individuals.

If they had some stunning new information, we'd know about it.

reply to post by PieKeeper


There need not be any stunning new information. The fact is, the current theories on the origins of life are complete nonsense. It really is quite interesting how far mainstream science has been willing to stretch the laws of physics and completely disregard the absolutely overwhelming odds stacked against life just spontaneously appearing from no life.

In hindsight, I suppose it's better than saying we have no idea. It's just a little frustrating how many people actually believe this nonsense.

reply to post by Jaydee055


None sense. All science does is it setups theories, and then proves them correct or not. In case of evolution, those are correct, no matter what your priest tells you. Evolution is based on evidence and scientific work of many, and just on this topic there is huge amount of information that supports it, where I did not see single piece of evidence (except many wishes and statements without any backings) in the favor of creationism.


As for South Korea, its actually set-back, not going forward. As for claim that is #1 in education, not really. It is in top, but not the best. (link)

reply to post by SuperFrog


Here's the problem, people make many assumptions about creationism when really they know nothing about it. First I'll address the priest remark. I don't have a priest, or a pastor, or a minister for that matter. I don't go to church at all in fact. There's a huge difference in being religious and being a theist. I disagree quite a great deal with religion in general.

Also, I understand how science and theories work. It might be hard to accept with the copious amounts of brainwashing fed to you daily thanks to mainstream science and the media, but as it turns out the creation theory isn't quite as crazy or baseless as you have been lead to believe. It's based on empirical evidence and scientific study, much like evolution, and to a lesser degree, the big bang.

I would also like to skim over evolution quickly seeing as how you mentioned it. In my post I was referring to the current theories on the origin of life. Evolution does not explain the origin of life. It does attempt to explain how life became what it is today however.

Personally, I only believe in what's known as micro-evolution, which is really more adaptation than it is full blown evolution. Once evolution can be proven, on a macro scale, to be be scientific fact then I will accept it as such.

Originally posted by Jaydee055
reply to post by SuperFrog

 

Here's the problem, people make many assumptions about creationism when really they know nothing about it. First I'll address the priest remark. I don't have a priest, or a pastor, or a minister for that matter. I don't go to church at all in fact. There's a huge difference in being religious and being a theist. I disagree quite a great deal with religion in general.

My apology on priest remark. What I know about current religious belief of world beginning is what I've read from bible and qur'an, many documentaries on TV, what I read on internet (having access for 15 years) and what was in some of books. You might say that I don't know much about it, not sure if because of my disbelief I might count as biased against creation of the world in seven days.

Also, I understand how science and theories work. It might be hard to accept with the copious amounts of brainwashing fed to you daily thanks to mainstream science and the media, but as it turns out the creation theory isn't quite as crazy or baseless as you have been lead to believe. It's based on empirical evidence and scientific study, much like evolution, and to a lesser degree, the big bang.

So now all new scientific information is brain washing? How interesting, as real brain washing happens to be in religious organizations, where you are supposed to believe in something based on no evidence.

I would also like to skim over evolution quickly seeing as how you mentioned it. In my post I was referring to the current theories on the origin of life. Evolution does not explain the origin of life. It does attempt to explain how life became what it is today however.

True, evolution is more change in life, but abiogenesis covers origin of life - yet another theory.

Personally, I only believe in what's known as micro-evolution, which is really more adaptation than it is full blown evolution. Once evolution can be proven, on a macro scale, to be be scientific fact then I will accept it as such.

Evolution is proven as fact, it's happening and we are part of it. Every day there is more support for it, from genetic material that we share with primates, to laboratory work on speeding process so that we can see and observe evolution easier.

Not long ago there has been very good expo in Chicago Field Museum about Evolution theory and Charles Darwin. I've seen it twice, as mostly on every visit to Chicago we would visit museum. (my kids love to go there) It was very interesting, and covers work of Darwin and how did he come to conclusion that life changes and that we develop new abilities according to need, as well as rules of selection.

reply to post by SuperFrog


Certainly one thing I've reaffirmed in this thread is that it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with creationists as their minds are so closed to any outside theories or even facts which threaten to disrupt their belief in the bible.
Their distortion of true knowledge coupled with their distortion of the book they hold so dear in order to present "facts" backing their frankly ridiculous theory is nothing short of hypocritical and downright dangerous.

I'm so glad I have the ability to think for myself and change my opinions based upon past and current knowledge and experience rather than be tied to some 3500 year old book which has been altered countless times.

Originally posted by Pardon?
reply to post by SuperFrog

 

Certainly one thing I've reaffirmed in this thread is that it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with creationists as their minds are so closed to any outside theories or even facts which threaten to disrupt their belief in the bible.
Their distortion of true knowledge coupled with their distortion of the book they hold so dear in order to present "facts" backing their frankly ridiculous theory is nothing short of hypocritical and downright dangerous.

I'm so glad I have the ability to think for myself and change my opinions based upon past and current knowledge and experience rather than be tied to some 3500 year old book which has been altered countless times.

Discussion is possible, but we have to understand that all 'holy books' have systems developed to prevent followers 'get out of course' set by the book.

For example, in Islam, just thinking about possibility that there is no God, or questioning its existence get's your out of religion and it's punishable. Those rules are usually set at beginning, and they are instructions not to trust anyone who tries to prove the holy book being wrong.

It is system like this that has been abused and we had things like inquisition with all not so nice methods of enforcing 'God's will' or strict sharia law where people were stoned to death for blasphemy. (unfortunately, this is still happening)

This means that even giving possibility of God not existing, some of our 'evolution opponents' are risking their VIP seat in heaven.

I do thank all of those willing to discuss.

Originally posted by Lionhearte

Originally posted by HumanCondition
46% of the US has a serious social mental illness.

Translation-

46% of the US is retarded, and I am more intelligent then those 143 million people.

To the rest of you- Evolution is a theory and has NOT been observed, never, ever, ever. It has never been proven, and it is not science.

Debate me, I challenge you. Any claim, any question, any attack- I accept all.

I suggest you have a look for potholer54 on you tube if you think evolution is not science

He has many videos to give creationists an EDUCATION!

Originally posted by SuperFrog

Originally posted by Pardon?
reply to post by SuperFrog

 

Certainly one thing I've reaffirmed in this thread is that it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with creationists as their minds are so closed to any outside theories or even facts which threaten to disrupt their belief in the bible.
Their distortion of true knowledge coupled with their distortion of the book they hold so dear in order to present "facts" backing their frankly ridiculous theory is nothing short of hypocritical and downright dangerous.

I'm so glad I have the ability to think for myself and change my opinions based upon past and current knowledge and experience rather than be tied to some 3500 year old book which has been altered countless times.

Discussion is possible, but we have to understand that all 'holy books' have systems developed to prevent followers 'get out of course' set by the book.

For example, in Islam, just thinking about possibility that there is no God, or questioning its existence get's your out of religion and it's punishable. Those rules are usually set at beginning, and they are instructions not to trust anyone who tries to prove the holy book being wrong.

It is system like this that has been abused and we had things like inquisition with all not so nice methods of enforcing 'God's will' or strict sharia law where people were stoned to death for blasphemy. (unfortunately, this is still happening)

This means that even giving possibility of God not existing, some of our 'evolution opponents' are risking their VIP seat in heaven.

I do thank all of those willing to discuss.

Well said.
I agree whilst discussion is indeed possible it always hits a brick wall due to the reasons above.
Hence why although discussion is possible, it will always prove futile.

reply to post by SuperFrog


Although I do believe evolution plays a major role in nature, I can't find a single case that a species benefited from a gain or lose of a chromosome. A human is born with or without one chromosome and they're birth defected, mentally dull, and lose motor function. That being said there is not a single shred of evidence to prove that this process equals good things, there is although a very large amount of evidence to the contrary. If you could show me a single case of it being otherwise I'll commend you for your efforts, till then scientists are still grasping at straws because they still have no answer for this.

Originally posted by Jaydee055
Interesting. What's also very interesting is that South Korea is ranked as #1 in education in the entire world. So while the flame war commences on both sides maybe we should all stop and think about that for a moment. The average South Korean is likely more intelligent than 70% of ATS'ers. So stop for just one moment, and open your mind to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, they're onto something here.

Can I get a citation for South Korea being ranked #1 in Education?