It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Salvation By Works Alone, Why "Free Grace" is a False Doctrine

page: 3
5
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 12:46 PM
link   

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

You have to be precise

You are just giving a demonstration of what I have been warning about, which is how you redefine all the terms to support your theory.


No, English is a fuzzy language that confuses sometimes. Greek is very precise. That's the entire reason for doing Greek and Hebrew word studies. "Love" in English has 7 different words and definitions and applications in the Greek.

"Salvation" in one all-inclusive term term used to describe 3 different things in 3 different tenses in the English Bible confuses many people, this is an exercise in the reality of that.




posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 01:20 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Greek is very precise.

Greek verbs have a lot of forms which have to do with things like gender, which English does not but the meanings are not more precise as far as definitions are concerned.
Plus you are talking about a noun, so your "precision" argument goes out the window.
There is less precision because of people like you who take the root meanings of how a Greek word is compiled, and take that as the "real" meaning, when the real meaning is exactly the same as in English, which is determined by usage.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 02:36 PM
link   
reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Greek verbs have a lot of forms which have to do with things like gender, which English does not but the meanings are not more precise as far as definitions are concerned.


100% wrong. And verbs describe actions, the "gender" ones you speak of are active or passive or infinitive. Male usages are given active spellings, female spelling denote passive verbs. And the infinitive doesn't deal with personality or numbers. In English verbs denote the time an action takes place, in Greek they denote either active or passive, and the TYPE of verb. English has 3 verbs and a couple variations, Greek has over 70 combinations and variations.

3 < 70

Greek is the most descriptive and absurdly rigid language known to mankind. English is one of the fuzziest and laziest one to ever be spoken or written in the history of the world. Verbs in Greek must meet 5 separate conditions to even be used in a sentence.

Greek verbs must meet tenses (6), voices (3), moods (4), numbers, and persons just to be used.


edit on 11-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 10:55 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Greek is the most descriptive and absurdly rigid language known to mankind.

This is obviously something you got from listening to a YouTube video theology lesson.
I am sure you can not quote an actual book to back up this statement.
This is a fallacy people who have only enough knowledge to be dangerous fall into.
Hypothetically, there are all these rules in place, but in practice they are generally ignored, so to someone like you, Greek is less "precise" because you could see a word and determine its meaning by those rules, and come up with something different than what was intended by the writer.
I find your comments to be highly reckless and I believe it would be for the betterment of all readers if you were to try to not just mimic the videos you have a cult-follower type attraction to, and to do some real study on your own.
edit on 12-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 12:18 PM
link   
reply to post by jmdewey60
 



This is obviously something you got from listening to a YouTube video theology lesson.


No, the late Dr. Bruce Metzger.

Does he not know Greek in your opinion?



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 01:01 PM
link   
The God I serve brought a perfect collection of books called the King James Bible here in the last days. I believe that because I don't doubt God's power like the unbelievers do. All this babbling and vain attempts to convince each other with your own wisdom is not a good idea. Stick with the King James, and not other books which the enemy loves to use to get us all riled up. Be not ignorant of Satan's devices. (2 Cor 2:11)

The very center verse of the entire King James Bible is, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man." (Psalm 118:8) 14 words, the center of that verse is, 'the Lord'. How beautiful is that.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 03:30 PM
link   

Originally posted by netgamer7k
The God I serve brought a perfect collection of books called the King James Bible here in the last days. I believe that because I don't doubt God's power like the unbelievers do. All this babbling and vain attempts to convince each other with your own wisdom is not a good idea. Stick with the King James, and not other books which the enemy loves to use to get us all riled up. Be not ignorant of Satan's devices. (2 Cor 2:11)

The very center verse of the entire King James Bible is, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man." (Psalm 118:8) 14 words, the center of that verse is, 'the Lord'. How beautiful is that.


AMEN!

People think modern versions are God's Word. I always ask them to read the last 12 verses of Mark for me then. lol



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 03:47 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

No, the late Dr. Bruce Metzger.

Go ahead and cite where it says all that in your post.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 06:36 PM
link   

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

No, the late Dr. Bruce Metzger.

Go ahead and cite where it says all that in your post.


No, you just ask, and ask, and ask, and ask, it NEVER STOPS. You don't care whatsoever about learning anything. Now you're questioning Dr. Metzger. I quoted in another thread two of the greatest Greek translators on the planet saying home vital it is to understand Greek tenses and you're still arguing about that with me, and I included their full quote, book, and even page number.
Get someone else to play your games.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 08:09 AM
link   
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


One of my favorite chapters of the Bible is Matthew 7.
It is filled with lots of great wisdom.


Simply proclaiming the name of Jesus and doing works in his name are not good enough:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

- Matthew 7:21-23


Make of this what you will:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

- Matthew 7:13-14


Peace.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 08:32 AM
link   
reply to post by Sahabi
 


Great point friend. And "knew" is te same word Mary uses when she says "I have not known" a man."


He desires intimacy with us, a "relationship" with Him. Not just the Christian version of Judaism.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 09:20 AM
link   



Make of this what you will:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

- Matthew 7:13-14


Peace.



Wow. That is basically the Entropy Principle... " Wide are the chances that a system decays to chaos, but slim a the chance that harmonized structures forms in the system''. Thanks for sharing! I never knew physics principles were discussed in the Bible (never read it).

edit on 19-4-2012 by swan001 because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-4-2012 by swan001 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 09:25 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


U2U.
Wow, can you read Greek and Hebrew also? That would make you trilingual.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 12:59 PM
link   

Originally posted by swan001



Make of this what you will:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

- Matthew 7:13-14


Peace.



Wow. That is basically the Entropy Principle... " Wide are the chances that a system decays to chaos, but slim a the chance that harmonized structures forms in the system''. Thanks for sharing! I never knew physics principles were discussed in the Bible (never read it).


Dear goodness, the more we know about modern Physics the easier the Bible reads. Example, the "predestination" VS "free will" debate that has raged for hundreds of years in the church. Which one is right, are we chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, or do we choose to follow Him after hearing the gospel? Which one is true? We have the Calvinists on one side of the river and the Arminianists on the other side of the river and they both have their huge pile of verses to support their arguments and doctrines.

Then comes Einstein in 1916 and discovered there is no distinction whatsoever between time and space and time is a physical property we now know as the 4th dimension.

GOD HAS OMEGA VISION! lol And the river of truth flows between the banks of two extremes!



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 01:05 PM
link   

Originally posted by swan001
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


U2U.
Wow, can you read Greek and Hebrew also? That would make you trilingual.


I can read them, not really speak it except for short sentences. I can speak Spanish though, and when you have the baptism of fire you get a prayer language of God. (tongue of angels)

CLPrime is a beast with Greek, you can ask him. He can translate entire books of the Bible in Greek. I'm learning though as best I can, one thing you have to realize, Greek is ridiculously hard and rigid, Hebrew is also. It's not like learning English or Spanish. It's divine appointment that God only let His Word be penned in these two languages, they are impervious to slang and ambiguity. When they want a new word, they invent it, they don't apply a new definition to an existing word they already have.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 04:32 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Greek is ridiculously hard and rigid, Hebrew is also.

German would be an example of a language that is even more so. (and one reason why a person who wants to learn Hebrew is advised to first learn German)
It is a common fallacy that novice "translators" fall into where they believe that because there are all these hypothetical rules, then the writers for some reason rigidly followed them.
The languages in actual use is never rigidly followed, especially by the time the Bible books were written in those languages. Languages have a falling off and deterioration over time and you can see that in English where there is no strict adherence to the rules of even a hundred and fifty years ago.
The NT was written in Hellenistic Greek which is what was spread around throughout the Alexandrian empire as a common language, and was not hardly like what it was previously in the very ancient Athenian setting.
edit on 19-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 05:53 PM
link   
reply to post by jmdewey60
 



these hypothetical rules.


Things aren't "hypothetical" just because you're ignorant to them. Verb tenses are very real, and without grasping them you have no shot whatsoever to understand Greek. None.


The NT was written in Hellenistic Greek.


Koine Greek.
edit on 19-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 08:55 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Things aren't "hypothetical" just because you're ignorant to them. Verb tenses are very real, and without grasping them you have no shot whatsoever to understand Greek. None.
The way you describe this tells me you never spent more than a few minutes studying them.
And really, what is the purpose, exactly for this denunciation? Can you give an example of where I have given some misrepresentation of the correct morphology of a word?



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 09:06 PM
link   
OT= Works
NT= Grace

OT= works failed
NT= new covenant

New Covenant created because Old Covenant works failed. The Israelites couldn't follow Yeshua's commandments to the letter, so he had to make a new covenant that couldn't fail unless you are a pharisee who cannot read the writing on the wall because the old tradition blinds you. JM you're lumped in there with catholics and muslim who believe works can save you. You pat yourself on the back for your works and they do you no good. Faith first then works will manifest as a sign of your faith. You, catholics and muslim got it backwards. Works alone are exoteric, they do not reach your spirit and Yeshua will not see them. You must be reborn of water and Spirit.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 10:58 PM
link   
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



OT= Works
NT= Grace


That's bad Soeteriology according to Systematic Theology brother. Works never saved anyone, it was always by grace. I understand what you're trying to say though.




top topics



 
5
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join