It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Salvation By Works Alone, Why "Free Grace" is a False Doctrine

page: 4
5
<< 1  2  3    5  6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 12:06 AM
link   

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



OT= Works
NT= Grace


That's bad Soeteriology according to Systematic Theology brother. Works never saved anyone, it was always by grace. I understand what you're trying to say though.


What i'm saying is the old covenant failed because it was about works and the Israelites couldn't follow the law as well as they should have so it failed. This was God showing them that salvation by works does not work. Abraham was saved by his faith, and thats why he was called out of Babylon. When Abraham's decendants went into egypt they learned a mystery religion and fell into works alone and it didn't touch their spirits and it shows when during the exodus they wanted to go back to "egypt" and God would punish them and for a while they would return to seek his face, and then they would go back into egypt again and then the Assyrian Exile happened, they sought God's face and he relented and they went home, went back into egypt yet again and Babylonian Exile, wash rinse and repeat until Rome destroys Jerusalem and the temple.
edit on 20-4-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 12:11 AM
link   
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



The Old Covenant was broken before Moses came down from the mountain, God told Moses they had violated it already when he was up there communing with God. It lasted less than 30 days before the people broke it.



edit on 20-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 12:14 AM
link   
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 

Faith first then works will manifest as a sign of your faith.

That's a theory.
Sign to who, exactly? To God? Do you think God needs a sign?
You need to substantiate your claim, or at least elaborate on your theory, and perhaps at least propose what it might take to build a convincing argument that your theory is correct.



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 12:16 AM
link   

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



The Old Covenant was broken before Moses came down from the mountain, God told Moses they had violated it already when he was up there communing with God. It lasted less than 30 days before the people broke it.



edit on 20-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)


Thats because those laws were impossible for a weak human to keep. Even a righteous man would stumble at some point. He was showing them that without his grace, they were ultimately screwed. More often than not your first thought of the day could be a sin when youre just waking up.



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 01:00 AM
link   
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



Thats because those laws were impossible for a weak human to keep. Even a righteous man would stumble at some point. He was showing them that without his grace, they were ultimately screwed. More often than not your first thought of the day could be a sin when youre just waking up.


"those laws were impossible for a weak human to keep. "

Where did you read that?
The bible directly addresses this issue.


Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.
-Deuteronomy 30:11

For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
-Deuteronomy 30:16


"Even a righteous man would stumble at some point."
"More often than not your first thought of the day could be a sin when youre just waking up."

You seem to think that mans default nature is to keep sinning.
I have no idea where you are getting this from, but it clearly is not from the bible.

The bible teaches that sinning or refraining from it all within a mans control.


"If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life.
-Ezekiel 18:26-27



edit on 20-4-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 06:18 AM
link   
reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Sign to who, exactly?


Jesus, James, Paul in the NT. Good works is the purpose of saving faith, good works are the evidence of saving faith. And without good works as the evidence, most likely the saving faith is dead.



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 06:20 AM
link   

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



The Old Covenant was broken before Moses came down from the mountain, God told Moses they had violated it already when he was up there communing with God. It lasted less than 30 days before the people broke it.




Thats because those laws were impossible for a weak human to keep. Even a righteous man would stumble at some point. He was showing them that without his grace, they were ultimately screwed. More often than not your first thought of the day could be a sin when youre just waking up.


Yeah man I know, the Law is just man's schoolmaster, his neon sign pointing him to a bloody cross.



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 06:26 AM
link   
reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 



Where did you read that?




"And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.... Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" ~ Acts 15:7,10


Only the Pharisees rise up to try and put new covenant believers back under the "yoke" of the law (v. 5):



"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.







edit on 20-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 09:51 AM
link   

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Where did you read that?
The bible directly addresses this issue.


yes it does

For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage..But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord the veil is taken away



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 10:11 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I quoted the words of God Himself in the bible to frame my case.

Its not as simple as "its there in the bible, so its got to be true".



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 12:32 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Jesus, James, Paul in the NT. Good works is the purpose of saving faith, good works are the evidence of saving faith. And without good works as the evidence, most likely the saving faith is dead.

I think before attempting to use this to bolster Lonewolf's statement of theory, you should define what you mean by "saving faith". As it stands, you are attempting to validate an unsupported theory with another unsupported theory, since you have no direct quotes or citation to substantiate a statement which without them is nothing but a naked assertion.



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 12:45 PM
link   
reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 

You seem to think that mans default nature is to keep sinning.

Failure to 100% comply with the Mosaic Law = sin, if you create that as your criteria for what a sin is.
This should not be confused with what would be a sin for someone not relying on the Law for their justification.


The bible teaches that sinning or refraining from it all within a mans control.
With the advent of the Gospel, all this has to be redefined from what it says in your quote of Ezekiel. It is no longer about keeping the Mosaic Law. We now have Faith which substitutes for the written Law, where we now have a spiritual law that is written, so to speak, on our hearts.
edit on 20-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 01:04 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Yeah man I know, the Law is just man's schoolmaster, his neon sign pointing him to a bloody cross.

Galatians 3:24a
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ . . .

In other words, to God, through His Son.
Jesus saves.
You seem to have this attraction to the blood.
"Blood" symbolizes death, and has no intrinsic salvific quality.
Symbolically it does, as explained by an analogy to the tabernacle service of the high priest on the day of Atonement, which was basically his admission offering to present himself before the place of God's appearing.



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 03:46 PM
link   

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I quoted the words of God Himself in the bible to frame my case.

Its not as simple as "its there in the bible, so its got to be true".


You can't forget the "entire council of God". Single verse Theology leads to cults. For example, I can quote you two verses right now that if you followed them every day you'd be an alcoholic.

The law is just our schoolmaster. In Romans Paul says the law is perfect, and it is, we're the problem, we are not perfect.



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 03:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Jesus, James, Paul in the NT. Good works is the purpose of saving faith, good works are the evidence of saving faith. And without good works as the evidence, most likely the saving faith is dead.

I think before attempting to use this to bolster Lonewolf's statement of theory, you should define what you mean by "saving faith". As it stands, you are attempting to validate an unsupported theory with another unsupported theory, since you have no direct quotes or citation to substantiate a statement which without them is nothing but a naked assertion.


Faith that justifies a person before God in a general sense, faith in Christ's atonement in a specific sense.



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 03:50 PM
link   
reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Jesus saves.


Yeah, we know.



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 09:42 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Faith that justifies a person before God in a general sense, faith in Christ's atonement in a specific sense.
You know? I have a whole thread about that. Oh, it is this one. I had suspected that you are here to support the "Free Grace" theory of salvation. Since there is no verse that says a person is saved, as in the past tense, in this life, then you have adopter the explanation that when it says justified, it also means "saved" and a person is justified in this life.

Against that are the clear requirements for righteousness in order to stand justified. What you are claiming is salvation by works, so you agree with the premise of the thread in rejecting "Free Grace". Welcome aboard to taking your stand with the supporters of the truth of salvation by works alone.
edit on 20-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 09:53 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



You can't forget the "entire council of God". Single verse Theology leads to cults. For example, I can quote you two verses right now that if you followed them every day you'd be an alcoholic.


The bible REPEATEDLY equates keeping the law with "righteousness".
Its a recurring theme in the bible.



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 10:33 PM
link   

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



You can't forget the "entire council of God". Single verse Theology leads to cults. For example, I can quote you two verses right now that if you followed them every day you'd be an alcoholic.


The bible REPEATEDLY equates keeping the law with "righteousness".
Its a recurring theme in the bible.



Sucks for the people who lived before the exodus then huh? And go look at Exodus 24, the covenant was broken before Moses came down from the mountain. The Bible ALSO repeatedly says no one is righteous, and that no man can keep the Law in it's entirety, and that to fail in 1 part is to fail it all.

That's why I said the "entire council of God".



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 10:42 PM
link   
reply to post by jmdewey60
 



I had suspected that you are here to support the "Free Grace" theory of salvation.


What other kind of grace is there? Free Grace is like saying Flaming Fire.


Since there is no verse that says a person is saved, as in the past tense, in this life, then you have adopter the explanation that when it says justified, it also means "saved" and a person is justified in this life.


Ephesians 2:8-9 (AMP)


8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

9Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]


(ESV)


For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


(KJV)


8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.




Aorist Verbs FTW!!!



new topics

top topics



 
5
<< 1  2  3    5  6 >>

log in

join