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Originally posted by jmdewey60
Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
One could ask a basic question like, "What is salvation?".
I would say, on an individual level, salvation would involve a resurrection.
Next question could be, "So how does resurrection work?".
To deal with actual theological questions, I would refer to the actual theological works of the New Testament, which are the authentic letters of Paul, and ignoring the questionable letters only pretending to be by Paul.
Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Philippians 1:6
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
One could ask a basic question like, "What is salvation?".
I would say, on an individual level, salvation would involve a resurrection.
Next question could be, "So how does resurrection work?".
To deal with actual theological questions, I would refer to the actual theological works of the New Testament, which are the authentic letters of Paul, and ignoring the questionable letters only pretending to be by Paul.
Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Philippians 1:6
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
I think people seek God because they want life.
We must seek God honestly and not because we desire reward or want to hide from punishment. It must be from love. We were given this world to find atonement. At-One-Ment.
I am saying that "being saved", as a real thing, rather than a hypothetical thing, or a way of describing your belief in a future salvation or some sort of guarantee of salvation, is something very physical, which is an action taken by an indwelling spirit from God, indistinguishable from God, which brings you bodily back to life.
I am not realy sure what you are trying to say.
Basically, but with some defining of terms. The real and physical actualization of "salvation" is the continuation of the work of the Christ spirit living and working in you. Of course once you physically come back to life, and are in whatever sort of existence you arrive at, whatever sort of things you may have done in your past life will be forgotten, otherwise your new life would not be of much value, having to suffer the consequences yet again.
Are you trying to say Salvation through the forgiveness is false and that only works will get you to heaven?
We have access to the Father through Jesus, which is how we receive the spirit. The work of that spirit is what eventually physically "saves" us.
Are you saying that Jesus isnt needed for salvation and that we could obtain access to the Father through our works alone?
Paul was uniquely qualified to preach his gospel of salvation, but people writing in his name, afterwards, were not, and missed some of the important details in their giving of their own take on the core of Paul's message.
Just trying to understand your full concept of salvation. Sorta of confused. Also , are you saying the books of the Bible are incorrect and that the message it teachers is corrupt?
The Pope offers synthetic works as a substitute to real works , which are of the spirit.
by works alone... sounds excellent and basically the same as I read in the bible somewhere, 'it is what we do in his name which defines us' (living a certain way) not via a confession to the Pope.
I tell ya I would love to have a few questions with that guy sometime...
These ideas as stated come across to me as being rather contrived and not having solid biblical backing.
In my opinion , works only permit you more Crowns in heaven and more blessings on the Earth , however , Crowns are very important in heaven regarding the type of position you will be rewarded with after the rapture or your death. Nothing you can do can make you worthy to enter the kingdom of God except by being covered in the blood of the lamb because even your good deeds are but filthy rags.
Originally posted by milkyway12
reply to post by SisyphusRide
In my opinion , works only permit you more Crowns in heaven and more blessings on the Earth , however , Crowns are very important in heaven regarding the type of position you will be rewarded with after the rapture or your death. Nothing you can do can make you worthy to enter the kingdom of God except by being covered in the blood of the lamb because even your good deeds are but filthy rags.
A favorite "proof text" of the free-grace advocates is Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
It does seem to be an excessively used and abused verse. Probably the fundamentalists of the Old Testament sort of orientation. I would ask someone who quotes that, "You do realize that is in the Old Testament, right?" which would not seem to phase them. I suppose some people see it all as "The Bible" without regard to the context, where if they want to, they can take part of a verse in one book, and connect it to a part of a verse in another book, and create a totally valid new verse which they are now able to quote with authority.
Christian fundamentalists will read that worse to you and say "see, it says right here in the bible that our righteous deeds are filthy rags" and then assert that peoples good deeds mean nothing to God.
I mean a type of hypothetical salvation which is apparently based on some sort of principle that there is nothing involved other than making a claim to it. That there is this contract written out which we can use to force the hand of God to make Him save us. Regardless of what it took to write such a "contract" it is still free, for the claimant, meaning without conditions, and the carrying out of the contract is somehow divorced from our real, day to day life.
Wait, who ever says justifying grace was free? It cost God the most important thing to Him. That isn't free whatsoever.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by EnochWasRight
I think people seek God because they want life.
We must seek God honestly and not because we desire reward or want to hide from punishment. It must be from love. We were given this world to find atonement. At-One-Ment.
I think some people would desire a God even if it could only offer then an existence in some sort of Hell, rather than no existence at all. I think it is a fantasy that people prefer death over life. I realize there are people who kill themselves all the time, but I imagine those are acts of desperation where they don't see themselves in this life having a connection to God, and so try to use death as a way of reaching out to God.
But generally speaking, I have to think that most people want life. You see this concept played out in the Gospels where Jesus tells people that if you believe in him, they will not die. There was probably a fuzzy sort of idea about an afterlife, held by the people Jesus was interacting with, and there were probably multiple theories out there about how one could participate in an afterlife.
I think the sayings of Jesus that the advocates of free grace construe as a manual for easy salvation, are in fact Jesus pointing out that those who desire that life after this one is over, should be directing their attention to him as the one who teaches the correct understanding of God's nature, and how we are expected to behave to be in conformity with God's will, and actually the provider of that pathway in a more physical sense into that new life.