Exclusive! First hand Witness: Trayvon Martin attacked Zimmerman Zimmerman Innocent Smoking Gun

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by pizzanazi75

 

No.. I am just stating the truth.
It could very well be Martin on the tape, but that doesn't PROVE that he wasn't beating up Zimmerman. He could have jumped out and started beating him up and yelled intending to beat him until help go there because he was afraid.

That would hurt Zimmerman, but it wouldn't PROVE he was guilty. I don't know why you are incapable of grasping these simple concepts.

So by your logic, Trayvon attacked Zimmerman for following him, and then Trayvon is beating him on the ground all while yelling for help? Based on your response it sure seems like that is what you are saying. If Trayvon attacked Zimmerman why would he ever yell for help? What makes sense and is logical is that the person screaming for help is the one who is attacked. I know you won't get it, its logic, and we've seen that isn't the strong suit of a select few posters on here.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by conspiracy nut

 

Yeah, what a coward eh? He should have just let himself be beaten unconscious and maybe dead like a real many man would have done....

the teenager was 6 3 140 he was a freakin beanpole. ok you get on top of me and see if you could bash my head into the floor while i fight back, i am no coward. ok now get on top of me and try bashing my head into the ground while i fish for my gun, that would give you plenty of time to be able to bash my head in the ground, do you get it now? you see how big of a coward chicken little zimmerman is now? his father stated that zim told him that he confronted tray and asked him what he was doing so dont say "trayvon jumped out from behind a bush and sucker punched zimmerman" its not like chicken little zimmerman was a girl that could be thrown around like a rag doll like he did to that girl and his wife. he was man enough then why wasnt he man enough to throw a 6 foot 3 140 pound beanpole off of him?

Originally posted by conspiracy nut
reply to post by TKDRL

 

if thats what tray did it would be very easy when someone is not defending themselves because they are too busy going for their gun. i'm 5 10 170 and i could bench press trayvon, r u gonna tell me zimmerman couldnt push trayvon off? what a coward.

Does your feats of strength on the bench press really have anything to do with this? If Zimmerman had no idea how to fight and Trayvon did OR vice versa, strength, age, height, weight really don't make a whole lot of difference. Not trying to argue guilt or innocence on either side here but you can't put yourself into the equation and say what you would have or could have done because none of us were there.

lol fair enough and you do have a point there, somewhat, but zimmerman had the strength to throw women around yet he couldnt throw a 140 pound teenager off? my point is the only reason tray if he did bash zims head was because zimmerman was to busy going for his gun to actually use self defense to get tray off. plus its not really a feat of strength to bench press 30 pounds less than my body weight most men could do that. especially one that can throw women around like zimmerman.

lets not pretend that zimmerman was some kind of wimp. he worked security in the past and threw a women hard enough that she twisted her ankle, plus slapped his wife around. so lets not act like he didnt know how to defend himself, he wanted to be a cop, how many cops wouldnt be able to defend themselves against a 140 pound unarmed teenager?

Originally posted by conspiracy nut
lets not pretend that zimmerman was some kind of wimp. he worked security in the past and threw a women hard enough that she twisted her ankle, plus slapped his wife around. so lets not act like he didnt know how to defend himself, he wanted to be a cop, how many cops wouldnt be able to defend themselves against a 140 pound unarmed teenager?

He weighed more then a 140 pounds the family later claimed he was six foot three 160 lbs still seems too low for someone allowed to play football. Trayvon had a six inch height advantage over Zimmerman and was a muscular football player.In his photos he was cut and in a fight between the two id have put money on Treyvon. So please dont try to twist the facts in is conceivable Treyvon was beating him so before you close the case why dont we wait to see what facts the state has ok.

Originally posted by conspiracy nut
lets not pretend that zimmerman was some kind of wimp. he worked security in the past and threw a women hard enough that she twisted her ankle, plus slapped his wife around. so lets not act like he didnt know how to defend himself, he wanted to be a cop, how many cops wouldnt be able to defend themselves against a 140 pound unarmed teenager?

Lets not pretend Trayvon Martin was an innocent little child who did not know how to fight / break the law.

So by using your logic Trayvon Martin is a thug wanna be drug addict with anger issues who cares more about hmself and less about his actions and education or his impact on others around him.

Assaulting a school bus driver....
Multiple suspensions from school (he was on a day 10 suspecsion when he was killed)...
Possession of drug / drug paraphernalia....
Possession of Burglatry tools.....
Possession of stolen property....

The Miami Herald - Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin

Destruction of Property -

In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f---.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.

Possession of stolen property / Burglary tools -

Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald.

.............................

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

Possession of drugs / drug paraphernalia -

Word of the incident came as the family’s lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana

.................

schools police report obtained by The Miami Herald specifies two items: a bag with marijuana residue and a “marijuana pipe.”

Suspended for tardiniess and truency -

The punishment was the third for the teen. On Monday, the family also said Trayvon had earlier been suspended for tardiness and truancy.

Since the parents have dismissed TRayvons history as being irrelevent to the situation at hand, the same applies to zimmerman.

i havent seen any proof of violence on trays side. zimmerman on the other hand there is proof of his violence. i didnt see you post a link for the attacking a bus driver. i didnt see any proof of him being a drug addict either unless you mean weed . i heard his drug test at the scene came back clean but i cant find a link. has that info been released. i do apologize for trashing zimmerman without bringing up trays past, they both have messed up things in their past but zimmerman is the one with the proven violent past not trayvon.

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by conspiracy nut
lets not pretend that zimmerman was some kind of wimp. he worked security in the past and threw a women hard enough that she twisted her ankle, plus slapped his wife around. so lets not act like he didnt know how to defend himself, he wanted to be a cop, how many cops wouldnt be able to defend themselves against a 140 pound unarmed teenager?

He weighed more then a 140 pounds the family later claimed he was six foot three 160 lbs still seems too low for someone allowed to play football. Trayvon had a six inch height advantage over Zimmerman and was a muscular football player.In his photos he was cut and in a fight between the two id have put money on Treyvon. So please dont try to twist the facts in is conceivable Treyvon was beating him so before you close the case why dont we wait to see what facts the state has ok.

6 3 140, 6 3 160, he was still a beanpole. show me a cop,(zimmerman wanted to be a cop) that couldnt handle a 6 3 160 pound unarmed teenager? where was all that strength that he had when he threw that girl hard enough to sprain her ankle?

George Zimmerman Released From Florida Jail on $150,000 Bond

George Zimmerman has been released from a Florida jail after posting $150,000 bond as he awaits trial for the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

Zimmerman exited the John E. Polk Correctional Facility (JEPCF) at the Seminole County Sheriff's Office at approximately midnight on Monday. The 28-year-old posted bond and was fitted with an electronic monitoring device prior to release, according to a statement from the Seminole County Sheriff's Office.

The GPS device, which can give immediate identification of an offender's whereabouts at any given time, will be monitored by the SCSO and Seminole County Probation.

At a bond hearing on Friday morning Judge Kenneth Lester agreed to allow Zimmerman, who is charged with second degree murder, to post a $150,000 bond to get out of jail. The prosecution had argued that Zimmerman should be denied bail or that it should be set at $1 million.

** ETA **
reply to post by pizzanazi75

I did not see your update until now with regards to the bail. My apologies.

you know what as much as i have bashed him, seeing those pictures makes me kinda feel bad for the guy, looks like he has been through hell! i just hope guilty or not that he has learned his lesson, is truly remorseful and behaves more responsibly in the future.

reply to post by pizzanazi75


Agreed... it is HIGHLY unlikely that Trayvon would be screaming for help while beating the crap out of Zimmerman. Why would he? To get some neighbors he doesn't know to come over there and help him kick Zimmerman to a bloody pulp?

I'm not trying to take sides here, but it really seems people are rallying on either Zimmerman or Trayvon's sides to the point of defying common sense. So I just want to quickly give everyone a friendly reminder that when we bitterly argue and start verbally abusing each other, we ALL lose. We here at ATS know that's exactly what TPTB want us to be doing as much as possible--confuse and distract us, pit us against each other, divide and conquer, etc. so that they can quietly carry out their agendas. I'm not saying to ignore this case, because I think it is an important issue--certainly more important than whatever Kim Kardashian BS the MSM would otherwise be reporting on-- but I think we need to all take a couple of breaths, shake hands and remember it's not me against you, its US (ATS etc) against THEM (TPTB).

Back to the topic.

Regarding replicating the voice on the recordings, I understand that it would be damn near impossible to replicate exactly the screams for help. I was thinking more in terms of taking some recordings of both people, running it through whatever state of the art voice analysis software there is out there and figuring out whose voice it matches the most. They could take the recordings, add filters to simulate the cell phone in question, and account for noise. I guess the problem would be that it might entirely depend on what sort of vocal recordings they have of Trayvon, but I imagine if they could find one of him screaming anywhere it might be a lot easier than you'd think to match up. I actually saw one report where some sound engineers determined that the voice could not have been Zimmerman's, but that's all they concluded and I hadn't heard anything since-- I feel like that would help clarify what really went down a great deal.

One other random thing I wanted to address that I've seen asked several times now is "Why didn't Trayvon head home if he were so close?" Here's why I wouldn't-- if I were being followed by someone and I suspected the worst-- a stalker, pervert, murderer etc I have no idea from my point of reference-- the LAST thing I would want to do is let them know where I live. I'd be primarily interested in losing them altogether, making absolutely sure they don't see me walk into my home. So my guess is that rather than Trayvon "hiding in the bushes" and "sucker punching Zimmerman", he was really trying to lose Zimmerman and see that he turned around and left, but they ended up fatefully crossing paths. But that's just my opinion.

Originally posted by solarjetman
reply to post by pizzanazi75

 

Agreed... it is HIGHLY unlikely that Trayvon would be screaming for help while beating the crap out of Zimmerman. Why would he? To get some neighbors he doesn't know to come over there and help him kick Zimmerman to a bloody pulp?

I'm not trying to take sides here, but it really seems people are rallying on either Zimmerman or Trayvon's sides to the point of defying common sense. So I just want to quickly give everyone a friendly reminder that when we bitterly argue and start verbally abusing each other, we ALL lose. We here at ATS know that's exactly what TPTB want us to be doing as much as possible--confuse and distract us, pit us against each other, divide and conquer, etc. so that they can quietly carry out their agendas. I'm not saying to ignore this case, because I think it is an important issue--certainly more important than whatever Kim Kardashian BS the MSM would otherwise be reporting on-- but I think we need to all take a couple of breaths, shake hands and remember it's not me against you, its US (ATS etc) against THEM (TPTB).

Back to the topic.

Regarding replicating the voice on the recordings, I understand that it would be damn near impossible to replicate exactly the screams for help. I was thinking more in terms of taking some recordings of both people, running it through whatever state of the art voice analysis software there is out there and figuring out whose voice it matches the most. They could take the recordings, add filters to simulate the cell phone in question, and account for noise. I guess the problem would be that it might entirely depend on what sort of vocal recordings they have of Trayvon, but I imagine if they could find one of him screaming anywhere it might be a lot easier than you'd think to match up. I actually saw one report where some sound engineers determined that the voice could not have been Zimmerman's, but that's all they concluded and I hadn't heard anything sense-- I feel like that would help clarify what really went down a great deal.

One other random thing I wanted to address that I've seen asked several times now is "Why didn't Trayvon head home if he were so close?" Here's why I wouldn't-- if I were being followed by someone and I suspected the worst-- a stalker, pervert, murderer etc I have no idea from my point of reference-- the LAST thing I would want to do is let them know where I live. I'd be primarily interested in losing them altogether, making absolutely sure they don't see me walk into my home. So my guess is that rather than Trayvon "hiding in the bushes" and "sucker punching Zimmerman", he was really trying to lose Zimmerman and see that he turned around and left, but they ended up fatefully crossing paths. But that's just my opinion.

Thank you for your opinions.

In regards to the voice recordings. In the bond hearing it was confirmed that the FBI has analyzed the 911 calls.What that said to me was that Trayvon's parents/friends probably had voice mails and video of him to give to the FBI. I have a feeling, and its just my gut, that the prosecution knows for 100% sure that it is NOT Zimmerman yelling and that it IS Trayvon screaming. I think that is why the felt comfortable charging him with 2nd degree murder. I would love to hear how Zimmerman could explain shooting an unarmed teenager who is screaming for his life.

Im also gonna add this on a personal note, which means nothing, except to add to my opinion. I recently graduated from a 4 year university that is a HBC 1890 school (historically black college), the population of the college was about 90% black, 10% everything else, pretty evenly distributed.....point is I have spent a lot time around young black males.....those screams for help are coming from a young black teenager, there is no doubt in my mind. Like I said its just a personal observation I have made, but I am convinced that is a young black male yelling 'help'. Just a personal note. Im not a voice expert, I just play one on the Internet

The ambush theory makes no sense in any way. Trayvon had no motivation to attack Zimmerman for no reason. By Zimmermans own words on the 911 call he says Trayvon is running. It not logical to think that he would run away one minute and then come back the next. Just like its illogical for him to attack Zimmerman and then scream for help.

reply to post by solarjetman


A few things to consider...

1- 2 companies were hired by the Sentinel (paper in Florida) to analyze the 911 tape with the yelling for help. During that test there was a 90% probability it was Martin and only a 48% probability it was Zimmerman.

The problem with the test though is the method used. According to the test there must be at least 10 words spoken in order to meet baseline requirements. In this case it only had the 2 words so im not entirely sure how, or if, that is going to fly in court.

The PA has hired a company to review the tapes as well but so far nothing has been released yet.

2 - Again people seem to be stating as fact how a person would react or not react. As I stated before the fight or flight response affects that so unless a person was present and in that situation there is absolutely no way to guess as to who was yelling for help and why.

I have responded to fights where a person is being attacked and at some point during the fight, the victim goes through essentially a rage overload. The motivation for self preservation is so high that not only does the victim overcome the attacker, but instead of running the victim continues the assault not comprehending their current situation.

and yes, I have seen them yelling / screaming for help while they were actually winning against their attacker. The victim was do amped up they were not perceiving the situation at that exact moment. The other possibility is overcoming the attacker and making a decision to remain instead of running. Mindset there is to continue until the danger is no longer present as opposed to running only to find the attacker has recovered, is even more angry, and now pursuing the running individual to ensure there is no witness to a crime.

3 - Trayvon heading for home. Depending on what theory you are looking at you have 2 possibilities.
A - Martin was heading home and was confronted by Zimmerman before he got to his fathers house.
B - Martin was able to elude Zimmerman and double back, ambushing Zimmerman.

Neither option can be verified with any amount of certainty since we dont know for sure what occurred at the point of contact.

Originally posted by conspiracy nut
lol fair enough and you do have a point there, somewhat, but zimmerman had the strength to throw women around yet he couldnt throw a 140 pound teenager off? my point is the only reason tray if he did bash zims head was because zimmerman was to busy going for his gun to actually use self defense to get tray off. plus its not really a feat of strength to bench press 30 pounds less than my body weight most men could do that. especially one that can throw women around like zimmerman.

Well throwing a woman around that most likely isn't fighting back is different than fighting a 17 yr old I would think. I agree a grown man should be able to get another off of him, but maybe Zimmerman was weak, and was a "wimp". I'm sure you know guys that are the same way, I know I do. There are guys out there that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, and maybe Zimm was one of them. Not saying that explains or condones what he did. I get what you are saying, but unless they let us roll around on the mat with Zimm then we really don't know what kind of man he is when it comes to a physical altercation.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by solarjetman

 

A few things to consider...

1- 2 companies were hired by the Sentinel (paper in Florida) to analyze the 911 tape with the yelling for help. During that test there was a 90% probability it was Martin and only a 48% probability it was Zimmerman.

The problem with the test though is the method used. According to the test there must be at least 10 words spoken in order to meet baseline requirements. In this case it only had the 2 words so im not entirely sure how, or if, that is going to fly in court.

The PA has hired a company to review the tapes as well but so far nothing has been released yet.

2 - Again people seem to be stating as fact how a person would react or not react. As I stated before the fight or flight response affects that so unless a person was present and in that situation there is absolutely no way to guess as to who was yelling for help and why.

I have responded to fights where a person is being attacked and at some point during the fight, the victim goes through essentially a rage overload. The motivation for self preservation is so high that not only does the victim overcome the attacker, but instead of running the victim continues the assault not comprehending their current situation.

and yes, I have seen them yelling / screaming for help while they were actually winning against their attacker. The victim was do amped up they were not perceiving the situation at that exact moment. The other possibility is overcoming the attacker and making a decision to remain instead of running. Mindset there is to continue until the danger is no longer present as opposed to running only to find the attacker has recovered, is even more angry, and now pursuing the running individual to ensure there is no witness to a crime.

3 - Trayvon heading for home. Depending on what theory you are looking at you have 2 possibilities.
A - Martin was heading home and was confronted by Zimmerman before he got to his fathers house.
B - Martin was able to elude Zimmerman and double back, ambushing Zimmerman.

Neither option can be verified with any amount of certainty since we dont know for sure what occurred at the point of contact.

Could you provide a source for someone saying they were 90% sure it was Trayvon screaming on the 911 calls?

posted on 23-4-2012 @ 02:16 AM by Xcathdra
1- 2 companies were hired by the Sentinel (paper in Florida) to analyze the 911 tape with the yelling for help. During that test there was a 90% probability it was Martin and only a 48% probability it was Zimmerman.

Or are you misspeaking again or what is going on?

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

Trayvon Martin Shooting: Voice Experts Claim Cries Heard On 911 Call Were Not George Zimmerman's

or this.....

Owen used Easy Voice Biometrics software to compare Zimmerman's voice to the 911 call screams, and it was a 48 percent match—well short of the 90 percent needed for a positive match, he said.

Trayvon Martin 911 call: Audio experts say likely not George Zimmerman screaming

or this....

Owen told the newspaper that the software compared the screams to Zimmerman's voice and returned a 48 percent match. He said he would expect a match of higher than 90 percent, considering the quality of the audio.

Trayvon Martin case 911 call: Screams not George Zimmerman's, 2 experts say

or this....

Independent forensic experts Tom Owen and Ed Primeau both tell the Orlando Sentinel that the voice heard on the call does not match Zimmerman’s. Owen says he used voice match software to determine that there is only a 48% chance that the voice crying for help is Zimmerman’s. A positive match would have resulted in a 90% reading.

Trayvon Martin Case: 911 Screams Are Not George Zimmerman, Say Experts


So did you just make that up or do you not understand what the experts are saying when they would expect a 90% chance or greater and that Zimmerman matches by 48%?

A source would be nice for those claims.

reply to post by pizzanazi75


good job missing the point that the audio analysis had insufficient data by its own standards to reach a conclusion. In your rush to point out a mistake you make a huge post which doesn't even address that issue. Seems like your more concerned with getting one over on another poster than discussing the issues.

you also ignore the fact that no match has been attempted against TMs voice what if the results came back as 10% chance? would that make it more likely it was zimmerman if he scores 40+%?

always thought this voice analysis was pretty weak but we'll see how things go in court

During that test there was a 90% probability it was Martin and only a 48% probability it was Zimmerman.

No. It was a 48% probability that it was Zimmerman. That's it. Where did you get a 90% probability it was Martin?

Originally posted by yeti101
reply to post by pizzanazi75

 

good job missing the point that the audio analysis had insufficient data by its own standards to reach a conclusion. seems like you want to argue for the sake of arguing. In your rush to pint out a mistake you make a huge post which doesn't even address that issue.

edit on 23-4-2012 by yeti101 because: (no reason given)

I didn't miss any point at all. My 'huge' post absolutely addresses the issues. A member posted information that was incorrect. This is coming from a member who has a proven history of posting mis information and lies regarding this case. I pointed out that he was spreading misinformation. I am sorry you don't like it when someone points out your friends false statements. If you want the truth you would have pointed out his mistake.

I guess you have missed the point that the FBI has analyzed the tapes according one of the investigators at the bond hearing on Friday, we'll find out eventually what their conclusion was. Im sure you will deny that too. The 2 experts that analyzed it so far that is public has both stated that they believe it is Trayvon screaming. As your friend says, again with no source, they only have 2 words to match Zimmerman, well those 2 words seem to be enough for 2 experts in the field to stake their reputations on their claims. I think I will trust the testimony of 2 experts over some alleged police officer on a discussion board who doesn't ever provide a source. You can trust the alleged police officer over the experts that is completely up to you.....birds of a feather.

Ed Primeau, an audio engineer who is listed as an expert in recorded evidence by the American College of Forensic Examiners International, told the paper. "As a matter of fact, after 28 years of doing this, I would put my reputation on the line and say this is not George Zimmerman screaming."

On CNN, Primeau said he's 95 percent sure the screams heard on the tape are not Zimmerman's

Trayvon Martin 911 call: Audio experts say likely not George Zimmerman screaming

And once I point out that someone has just posted bogus facts and figures nothing else they say beyond that is relevant. If I know the first 2 lines have misinformation in it it is safe to assume the rest will too. He made 2 claims that were not backed up, and you immediately jump on his bandwagon and try to defend him, yet you completely ignore the fact that was wrong in his statements.

So really it seems the only one who wants to fight around here are you and your buddy's. You need to refresh yourself on this thread. I have backed up all of my claims. I don't need to make things up .... It is very telling that the Zimmerman sides feels the need to constantly make claims with no source and then totally derail the conversation.

reply to post by pizzanazi75


so the fact a match has not been attempted against TMs voice is not relevant or does not concern you at all?

i think any impartial observer would want that. I sure do.