Satan Is Not A Real Being

reply to post by Devino


Colossians 1:16

16) "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

In order for us to get a better understanding, we need to take a look at ALL of the other entities listed in the Bible to get a better determination as to whether or not the "Satan" one is real.

If Satan is not an entity, then who are the angels? Can we believe in one without the other? Who are these "angels" and "cherubs" that the Bible speaks of and in what context are they used?

If you do a thorough search of "angels" and "cherubs" in the Bible, they are given definite characteristics such as:

Ezekiel 10:20-21

20) "This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims."

21) "Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings."

Here's a good place to start, which lists Bible verses pertaining to some of them:

Christian Angelic Hierarchy

en.wikipedia.org...

Once again, I'll point to the first scripture I posted on God having created all things visible and INVISIBLE.

I know the mind is a powerful tool, but I don't believe it's capable of creating supernatural beings or events and I doubt that everyone who's experienced either one could be labeled as crazy or mentally ill. Too many people have experienced these things.

reply to post by Starchild23

Not any more he's not. Used to be I do suspect, but he ah got caught in a "thicket", and had to be sacrificed for the good of one and all.

reply to post by Egyptia


Why would Satan appear and warn you that you're doomed if you don't stay close to God?

I'm not doubting your story, but I wonder if you found this advice harmful. On the surface it seems like good advice, but there is the implication that a single mistake will doom you forever. That's probably where it's harmful in my opinion, because most people eventually make a mistake and need hope to get up and try again. Or maybe the fear is designed to keep you from taking risks that might be helpful.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by milkyway12

 

If God is not there , then i lose nothing. If he is , and i do not believe ... i lose everything.

Exactly why I do not support Christianity.

The Creator would not destroy a man simply for not believing in him. That's tyrannical. I refuse to worship, bow to or even acknowledge such a being.

I don't support Christianity either, Christians believe that all you have to do is believe that Jesus died so that they can have eternal life, Jesus said, "If you love me, you'll obey my commands", yet Christians are famous for their "we're sinners" stance. BTW, Jesus said that unless you are willing to give up everything then you can not be His disciple. God is always there, whether you believe in His existance or not, and everyone will bow to Him, willingly or unwillingly.

define real? physics cannot even determine real, nor philsophy, so if we really get down to the gritty, real cannot be justified at all. Because physics saids that this world is not real (some say)

reply to post by cloudyday


I haven't a clue as to why I would have that encounter. This isn't the sort of thing one can imagine or understand. Only to say that he watches those that are a potential threat and if all his schemes to win them to the darkness end in failure, perhaps this sort of encounter is to drive them into a place of fear and in fear perhaps sufficient complacency will follow.

It was meant as a warning. He didn't give me advice, he threatened me so that I would live with terror instead of my Father's Love and Grace.

He wanted me to be ignorant in fear so that I would never discover the authority I have in Yeshuah over him and all the principalities of the air. Had I continued to live in fear it would have prevented me from this most deadly discovery against him and his hordes.

Lucifer- The eye at the top of the pyramid (yet is separate)

think about this.

To me Satan as in Satan of Hell, this is just a made up character, a thought form for all I am concerned.

I see the references as different from one another.

reply to post by ZacharyW


I would have loved for you to experience these things. Truthfully I wouldn't want that to happen to my worst enemy. Everyone seems to think these things aren't real just on account of not having experienced them. Imagine for a moment a world where no one believes anything just because they can't see it.

The colors we percieve are merely an example of the limited 3 dimensional space within the spectrum that we reside in. That doesn't mean that more colors don't exist. We just can't see them. Unless your frequency can percieve beyond the 3rd dimensional physical dimensions.

Real Life is exactly like that.


The universe is unimaginable to most minds but not all.

reply to post by Deetermined

In order for us to get a better understanding, we need to take a look at ALL of the other entities listed in the Bible to get a better determination as to whether or not the "Satan" one is real.

This might be helpful if we can use this knowledge to compare with Satan's character. Maybe I missed it but I do not see any mention of Satan or Devil in that list of Christian angelic hierarchy you linked. How does he supposedly fit into these levels or "spheres"?

Let me quote from that link's descriptive paragraph.

the Biblical canon is relatively silent on the subject. Thus these hierarchies are highly speculative.

Even though I may enjoy reading about these characters I regard them as highly speculative.

If Satan is not an entity, then who are the angels? Can we believe in one without the other? Who are these "angels" and "cherubs" that the Bible speaks of and in what context are they used?

This appears like a good question but I also consider it to be a red herring in a way. In the biblical quotes you posted it seems clear that Satan is different from the angels. Bringing up the speculative and controversial subject of angels only helps to confuse the issue at hand in my opinion. At the same time I would also like to know the answers to your questions.

I know the mind is a powerful tool, but I don't believe it's capable of creating supernatural beings or events and I doubt that everyone who's experienced either one could be labeled as crazy or mentally ill.

I don't consider those who claim to see supernatural things crazy just because they claim to have seen such things. The skeptical side of me does have a problem with the word "Supernatural" though. I consider all things in our Universe to be natural and therefore follow physical laws. Supernatural and magic are the product of ignorance and imagination. Ignorance in this case means the lack of knowing and is not meant to insult anyone. Therefore supernatural beings and events are only the product of ones mind. In reality they are very natural albeit unexplainable things.

If I were to witness an event that I cannot explain due to my ignorance of what is happening my imagination will fill in the gaps for me. This is what I see for some instances in the bible. A very real yet unexplainable event was witnessed and the description is a product of the observer. In other words what really happened and what was described can be seen as two different things.

Once again, I'll point to the first scripture I posted on God having created all things visible and INVISIBLE.

I don't disagree with you here but keep in mind that this means God creates our thoughts as well.

What we do know is that Lucifer is considered to be the bringer of light, the morning star or the planet Venus. This, over time, has been convoluted to mean Satan and the Devil for the purpose of getting ones agenda across.

Satan and devil are both defined as descriptive words and therefore are at least just that. It appears that they are used to describe actual characters but I also feel that this is to get ones agenda across. These are tools used for fear to manipulate other's thoughts. This does, however, become supernatural.

EDIT; Quoting myself...

Maybe I missed it but I do not see any mention of Satan or Devil in that list of Christian angelic hierarchy you linked.

I just found this.

St. Thomas Aquinas imagined Satan as a fallen Cherub.

Cherubim
Clicking on the link "Satan".

Satan, "the opposer", is the title of various entities, both human and divine, who challenge the faith of humans in the Hebrew Bible. In Christianity the title became a personal name, and "Satan" changed from an accuser appointed by God to test men's faith to the chief of the rebellious fallen angels ("the devil" in Christianity,...

Source
I know that this is Wikipedia so take it for what it's worth but this pretty much sums up how I feel about these characters. They have been changed from their originally meaning.

Originally posted by Devino

This might be helpful if we can use this knowledge to compare with Satan's character. Maybe I missed it but I do not see any mention of Satan or Devil in that list of Christian angelic hierarchy you linked. How does he supposedly fit into these levels or "spheres"?

I think I'm going to have to refer back again to Revelation 12:9 for this answer:

9) "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

To imply that Satan/Devil (dragon, serpent, etc.) was cast out into the earth and HIS angels were cast out with him, leads me to believe that he was the instigating angel who lead other angels astray. However, more definition would probably have to be found in other texts that weren't canonized into the Bible.

This appears like a good question but I also consider it to be a red herring in a way. In the biblical quotes you posted it seems clear that Satan is different from the angels. Bringing up the speculative and controversial subject of angels only helps to confuse the issue at hand in my opinion. At the same time I would also like to know the answers to your questions.

I don't have time to look up scripture at the moment, but I think this link might provide an explanation as well as list the scriptures that are tied to the subject.

en.wikipedia.org...

I don't consider those who claim to see supernatural things crazy just because they claim to have seen such things. The skeptical side of me does have a problem with the word "Supernatural" though. I consider all things in our Universe to be natural and therefore follow physical laws. Supernatural and magic are the product of ignorance and imagination. Ignorance in this case means the lack of knowing and is not meant to insult anyone. Therefore supernatural beings and events are only the product of ones mind. In reality they are very natural albeit unexplainable things.

I would agree with you if every "Supernatural" incident only involved one person experiencing it at any one given moment, but that doesn't seem to always be the case. As you'll notice by Egyptia's comments above, he/she was not the only one that witnessed what he/she did at the same time.

Only those who are shallow in the material world such as earth would not be open minded enough to believe in some super/inter dimensional being of negativity

Originally posted by Jordan River
Only those who are shallow in the material world such as earth would not be open minded enough to believe in some super/inter dimensional being of negativity

It is interesting that you should speak in such a way about the material world, and yet your Bible will noticeably restrict itself to the Earth.

There is very little mention of outside worlds...surely if "God" had created or come from other worlds, these worlds would be described in detail?

Or is your "God" not interested in educating mankind with the truth?

Originally posted by Starchild23

Originally posted by Jordan River
Only those who are shallow in the material world such as earth would not be open minded enough to believe in some super/inter dimensional being of negativity

It is interesting that you should speak in such a way about the material world, and yet your Bible will noticeably restrict itself to the Earth.

There is very little mention of outside worlds...surely if "God" had created or come from other worlds, these worlds would be described in detail?

Or is your "God" not interested in educating mankind with the truth?

When all knowledge of mankind become electronic, internet, web file, notes every one becomes a genius. Right now knowledge is spread through the internet and people can gain a common High schoole education by researching the field of study on the internet. Knowledge is now at a level given to the masses and to those who want to study, Any one can be a genius. If knowledge is now so freely available then we must be at the greatest age of enlightenment due to technology. But after that? Then what? Thats the issue, then what? I know the answer? Do you know the answer? This is almost a siegway of gnosticsm with my thinking, knowledge has its limits. In a world where anyone can become a super genius in a field, everyone becomes equal, only those who are the super elite are the issues

now I am discussing something else now: Knowledge int he ancients was considered salvation because those who held power were incredibly educated in things such as math, philosophy, poetry. when you had Knowledge you had money to those who were/are educated were elite, powerful, etc. This is another example of the vatican translating the bible in Latin.
times have change, knowledge is free to give and knowledge no longer equates into salvation


And yes God has explained the outside realms throughout a few verses (mansions reminds me one ) and plenty books that are heretical such as nicodomus which is a pre dante inferno saga and enoch

reply to post by Jordan River

plenty books that are heretical such as nicodomus which is a pre dante inferno saga and enoch

I see. You're religious, which means you have accepted the doctrine of Christianity. That doctrine, Proverbs 3:5-6, which is as follows...

Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding

...says pretty much to believe whatever you are told and do not look for answers yourself. Do not seek to understand anything about how "God" works, nor why His/Her/Its establishments operate the way they do. Do not question the Bible or its authorities.

Essentially, anything that contradicts the Bible, regardless of physical and historical corroboration, is heretical. No exceptions.

Funny...doesn't the Bible also contradict itself?

In any case, you speak of an end to knowledge. That we have reached the peak of our intelligence. This is incorrect. The day when we know implicitly the ins and outs of morality, when we understand every aspect of the structure of the universe, when we know exactly what "God" is and what our purpose is, as well as communicate through the soul and the mind rather than by words of mouth...that is the day when we will begin to see the peak of the mountain of "enlightenment."

Do some research, and try to find something that not only fits into the "New Age" (or Rediscovery) science of our era, but also does not make an annoying habit of contradicting itself repeatedly.

sorry, but someone who cannot define what real is, isn't that spiritualy aware to tackle this topic

the greatest lie the devil ever told is not that Jesus Christ doesn't exist
the greatest lie ever told is that someone else died for your sins...

Lets partay!

now:
the devil made me do it?
or the belief in a gods chosen people who's holy book says that to lie with a man is an abomination but little boys are OK since they aren't men?

A German Catholic priest has admitted 280 counts of sexual abuse involving three boys in the past decade, saying he did not think he was doing harm.
The priest said it had not been his intention to get close to the boy sexually, and that it had never occurred to him that he was doing harm.

freethoughtblogs.com...

emanual goldstien, osama bin laden, hitler, stalin, mao, the US, communism protestantism catholicism
rock and roll...demon rum.....
twern my fauylt St Peter..I was just standinthere mindin my own..
Then this BOOGIE MAN comes up to me and put the dope right in my hand...HONEST!

reply to post by Danbones

the greatest lie the devil ever told is not that Jesus Christ doesn't exist
the greatest lie ever told is that someone else died for your sins...

Actually, it's "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing mankind he doesn't exist."

My take on it is: "The greatest trick mankind ever pulled was convincing himself that all of his flaws were personified in an entity existing outside of his body, thereby removing all responsibility for his own stupidity."

It's more reasonable than assuming an evil fairy goes around planting bad thoughts in our head.

As for your highly disturbing quote:

A German Catholic priest has admitted 280 counts of sexual abuse involving three boys in the past decade, saying he did not think he was doing harm.
The priest said it had not been his intention to get close to the boy sexually, and that it had never occurred to him that he was doing harm.

This falls in line with

Trust in the LORD, and lean not on your own understanding

We are told not to think for ourselves. The moment I heard that line, from Proverbs, all chances of me ever taking the Bible seriously in its entirety went up in flames.

There's no Devil, and Jesus is not going to take care of our sins. If we expect to survive at all, we have to learn to take responsibility instead of having faith a couple of invisible entities are going to do battle and then take us by the hand to the "pearly gates".

The Christian god is a liar and a hypocrite. But above all, He is false. Not real. That's all there is to it. No omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent being creates a race purely as a line of servants. And no benevolent being will cast its creations into fiery pits for not believing. How can you expect us to, when you leave us to our own devices? We're a pitiful race, we need proof that there's hope.

My god is the true god...their god is only their definition of something that is beyond human definition and human comprehension. But my god can be everyone else's, too. They just have to wake up. And really, it's not a god. God is just a word. This entity is simply a being of purely natural substance...nothing supernatural.



Namaste

reply to post by Starchild23


If the belief about life is struggle and survival and life generally hurts then it is the devil who is in charge. If life feels good and flows without fear (no struggle/no survial beliefs), if life is wonderful then it is god that is in charge.
If you think this is hell on earth then it is the devil. If you feel as though this is heaven on earth then this is God.

The devil has deluded people and he has indeed done a good job.

Anyone who thinks evil is not real is in for a great big surprise. People will call it Satan.

Put whatever name on it you want. It exists.

I HAVE SEEN IT.

Originally posted by rtyfx
Anyone who thinks evil is not real is in for a great big surprise. People will call it Satan.

Put whatever name on it you want. It exists.

I HAVE SEEN IT.

You have seen Satan, in the flesh and in person? Or you have seen what you perceived to be true evil?

Be specific.