Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

reply to post by antonia


The Foundations of Marxism are in anti-semitism. Marx is the most famous self-hating Jew. The whole point of socialism was to battle the perceived capitalism of "jewish bankers". Im Marxs own jew-hating words:

"It is the circumvention of law that makes the religious Jew a religious Jew."

"The Jews of Poland are the smeariest of all races."

"Ramsgate is full of Jews and fleas"

"What is the Jew's foundation in our world? Material necessity, private advantage.

"What is the object of the Jew's worship in this world? Usury. What is his worldly god? Money".

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Socalists want workers to own the means of production. We on the other hand want the creators of the tools to own the means of production. Creatorship should equal ownership.

Workers create the tools also you know. Also there are many jobs that require you to have your own tools.

There is nothing a private owner can do that workers can't.

The only thing the private owner does is appropriate resources, and keeps them artificially scarce, in order to exploit people for their own benefit.

A 'private owner' is not needed to create anything. Ridiculous argument. Give a man a fish....Hmm?

reply to post by Skyfloating


How interesting that the Bolsheviks were 75% Jews then...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by antonia

 

The Foundations of Marxism are in anti-semitism. Marx is the most famous self-hating Jew. The whole point of socialism was to battle the perceived capitalism of "jewish bankers". Im Marxs own jew-hating words:

Nonsense. Once again the works of Marx that Marxism is based on, The Communist Manifesto, was the collective voice of the members of the 'Communist League' Central Committee', not the life and character of Marx himself. So whether Marx was a green god from the land of ozz it makes no difference. In fact a lot of the Communist Manifesto was based on a rough draft by Engels, who is always ignored yet he was the co-author.

Friedrich Engels (German pronunciation: [ˈfʁiːdʁɪç ˈɛŋəls]; 28 November 1820 – 5 August 1895) was a German industrialist, social scientist, author, political theorist, philosopher, and father of Marxist theory, alongside Karl Marx. In 1845 he published The Condition of the Working Class in England, based on personal observations and research. In 1848 he co-authored The Communist Manifesto with Karl Marx, and later he supported Marx financially to do research and write Das Kapital. After Marx's death Engels edited the second and third volumes. Additionally, Engels organized Marx's notes on the "Theories of Surplus Value" and this was later published as the "fourth volume" of Capital.[1]

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Skyfloating


That has little to do with semitism.

Marx and Hitler believed that jewish capitalists were responsible for all the worlds ills. They used to "protocols" to justify their views.

what Marx believed is irrelevant. he's no more an authority on socialism than Newton was an authority on gravity. and the difference between them, which makes Marx even less an authority than Newton, is that Newton was actually the first person to articulate the concept of gravity. Marx was not the first person to postulate an economic theory and call it socialism. socialism as an economic concept has been around since before Marx was even born.

Socalists want workers to own the means of production. We on the other hand want the creators of the tools to own the means of production. Creatorship should equal ownership.

those aren't mutually exclusive. mutualism is a form of socialism that predates Marxism. here's a brief description of its ideology:

"Mutualism is an anarchist school of thought that originates in the writings of Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, who envisioned a society where each person might possess a means of production, either individually or collectively, with trade representing equivalent amounts of labor in the free market.[1] "

en.wikipedia.org...

in other words, Proudhon believed in workers' control over the means of production, whether that worker be a sole proprietor in a business that he owns and operates himself or an equal owner of a worker cooperative. so, if i create X and use X to turn Y1 and Y2 into Z, then, by principle, i should own and control all of those means of production. socialists do not oppose this. we do, however, suggest that the best mode of business once a business goes beyond one man working for himself, is that which involves all workers in the workforce having an equal say over the business' operation and this is backed by evidence from scientists who have done studies that have shown that worker cooperatives are more productive, ensure better job and income security, and last longer than traditional firms on average.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by antonia

 

The Foundations of Marxism are in anti-semitism. Marx is the most famous self-hating Jew. The whole point of socialism was to battle the perceived capitalism of "jewish bankers". Im Marxs own jew-hating words:

"It is the circumvention of law that makes the religious Jew a religious Jew."

"The Jews of Poland are the smeariest of all races."

"Ramsgate is full of Jews and fleas"

"What is the Jew's foundation in our world? Material necessity, private advantage.

"What is the object of the Jew's worship in this world? Usury. What is his worldly god? Money".

I'm sorry but, What?

Have even read the offending text? Socialism existed before Marx. Communism existed before Marx and they weren't discussing Jews then either. Yea, Marx belittled Jews but if hated so much then why the hell did he fight for the autonomy of Jews? Why did he demand their rights? He belittled them because they were religious as he belittled all religious people.

Originally posted by antonia


Have even read the offending text? Socialism existed before Marx. Communism existed before Marx and they weren't discussing Jews then either. Yea, Marx belittled Jews but if hated so much then why the hell did he fight for the autonomy of Jews? Why did he demand their rights? He belittled them because they were religious as he belittled all religious people.

He belittled Jews because they made money. He called them usurers. In fact, the idea of making money off of money is Jewish (and thats why certain types of capitalism are forbidden in Islam).

And yes, socialism existed long before Marx. Its existed since thousands of years. One of the first socialists was Nimrod, who also happened to hate Jews and their way of making money.

I`ll close this post by quoting the latest genocidal socialist, Robert Mugabe:

'Commercial farmers are hard-hearted people, you would think they were Jews",

And that is also why you see so much of this among OWS:

reply to post by Skyfloating


www.worldsocialism.org...

No, flat out fullstop no. Marx fought for the rights of Jews. If hated Jews he would not have done that. You have never read the offending text and you are making that plainly obvious.

Originally posted by antonia
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

www.worldsocialism.org...

No, flat out fullstop no. Marx fought for the rights of Jews. If hated Jews he would not have done that. You have never read the offending text and you are making that plainly obvious.

edit on 10-2-2012 by antonia because: rawr

Ive read Marx and his writings are filled with references to money-grubbing Jews. Him having grown up in Jewish surroundings and family, he had serious mommy/daddy issues and channeled his hatred into books. Mommy/Daddy issues are at the core of most socialist fantasies. Socialism as Infantilism

I dont need your "flat out fullstop no" to understand what he has said about Jews. Marx speaks for himself. His books speak for themselves. What do you think "Das Kapital" is all about? Sure he stood up for some Jews...as long as they werent capitalists, bankers or successful people.

Originally posted by Skyfloating


Ive read Marx and his writings are filled with references to money-grubbing Jews. Him having grown up in Jewish surroundings and family, he had serious mommy/daddy issues and channeled his hatred into books. Mommy/Daddy issues are at the core of most socialist fantasies. Socialism as Infantilism

I dont need your "flat out fullstop no" to understand what he has said about Jews. Marx speaks for himself. His books speak for themselves. What do you think "Das Kapital" is all about? Sure he stood up for some Jews...as long as they werent capitalists, bankers or successful people.

Um no, you don't understand. His writing was in response to another man's book that was filled with flagrant anti-Jewish remarks. It is meant to be ironic and if you have read Burno's book you'd know that. I've read Kapital too and while it's a decent work it's actually not the best take on all he has to say. That would actually be this/;
www.marxists.org...

I've read Marx and "On the Jewish question" is really the only work considered to be anti-semetic and only by those who do not know the context in which it is written.

Originally posted by antonia

I've read Marx and "On the Jewish question" is really the only work considered to be anti-semetic and only by those who do not know the context in which it is written.

On the Jewish Question.

But thats not even the main reason we consider Marx in particular and socialism in general to be anti-jewish. Marx expressed his beliefs about jewish bankers and jewish capitalists elsewhere as well. The reason we see socialists as anti-semitic is because of what Judaism teaches about making money versus what Socialism teaches about money. The two belief-systems are mutually exclusive natural enemies.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I linked that already, so Why are you telling me about something I already mentioned?

Originally posted by antonia
I linked that already, so Why are you telling me about something I already mentioned?

You referenced that as his "only" anti-semitism, to which I responded that I dont see that as his "only" anti-semitism. I linked it just in case readers missed it.

Its important to understand why Judaism and Socialism are in conflict because it explains the genocides of the 20th Century.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by antonia
I linked that already, so Why are you telling me about something I already mentioned?

You referenced that as his "only" anti-semitism, to which I responded that I dont see that as his "only" anti-semitism. I linked it just in case readers missed it.

Its important to understand why Judaism and Socialism are in conflict because it explains the genocides of the 20th Century.

edit on 10-2-2012 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

Except a lot more than Jews were genocided in the 20th century.

Originally posted by antonia
Except a lot more than Jews were genocided in the 20th century.

And the Kibbutz in Israel pretty much proves that Judaism and Socialism are not in conflict.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by antonia
I linked that already, so Why are you telling me about something I already mentioned?

You referenced that as his "only" anti-semitism, to which I responded that I dont see that as his "only" anti-semitism. I linked it just in case readers missed it.

Its important to understand why Judaism and Socialism are in conflict because it explains the genocides of the 20th Century.

edit on 10-2-2012 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

I don't think anti-semitism is any inherent feature of a socio-economic theory. If there was anti-semitism (and yes, there were organized pogroms in Russia I guess), that is more attributable to culture than it is to politics. Anti-semitism has always pervaded Europe. Even Britain/England which basically laid the foundation for modern capitalistic thinking (having developed classical english liberalism) was a nation not immune to bouts of anti-semitism. You confuse correlation with causation, perhaps.

rant/
I thought this thread was about the failure of capitalism? Capitalism is a not a valid system of economics. It is a two-sided coin with Henry Ford on the face and a posse of armed private security drones on the flip side.

And the metaphorical coin of capitalism isn't even solid metal anymore... it's a sandwich of cheapest metals that were dug out of the ground by machines owned by corporations and poor people.

Capitalism can only keep itself alive by using blood transfusions, Philippines, Nicaragua, Viet Nam, Iraq.

It needs to be said: Capitalism would kick a puppy if a little blood squirted out. It's that reality enough for you?

Capitalism is dying. It needs human blood to survive. Let's not give it any more. There is a better way to manage resources. There is a better way to live. Live long and prosper my friends the rant is /rant over.

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter
rant/
I thought this thread was about the failure of capitalism? Capitalism is a not a valid system of economics. It is a two-sided coin with Henry Ford on the face and a posse of armed private security drones on the flip side.

This is one of the main reasons why I refuse to associate with self-identifying left activists online. I don't accept groupthink, narrow mindedness, or being expected to conform ideologically to anyone else's standards. To be entirely fair to Skyfloating, I'm not likely to appreciate your single mindedness here, any more than I have appreciated hers.

I'm interested primarily in solutions, irrespective of which side of the fence they come from. If someone has positive experiences with Capitalism that they wish to relate, they will be accepted. If my own opinion is incorrect on certain points, then I want to know about it.