Astronaunt Credibility: What do we believe?

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

You may observe in the 1960s newspapers: black people were referred to collectively as "the Negroes". A Soviet Communist was referred to as "Red", collectively as "The Reds", singularly as "Ivan" or "Cong".
The 1950s newspapers were an even worse time for minorities, women and patriotic insanity.

Gratuitous revisionist generalization, check!

Back to Ed Mitchell. He was a hero. But then he started talking about things that NASA didn't like, Roswell and ET's. Ed Mitchell recently tried to auction a camera he brought back from the Moon ( the DAC 16-mm camera that NASA had intended to be destroyed when the Lunar Module crashed back on the surface ). What happened is that Ed Mitchell is in hot water with NASA... for this camera.

Implied causality between two unrelated things, check!

We know that NASA is very protective of it's public image. NASA has huge propaganda staff (EPO) who "educate" journalists about every subject. NASA is also very much involved in "educating" school kids about space.

Stating biased personal opinion as "common knowledge," check!

So when Al Worden (Apollo 15 CMP) was FIRED for bringing 1: bringing undeclared contraband on the flight, in fact, several hundred postal covers, which were to be used for his own financial gain) and for 2: stating at a press conference that his EVA was like being on a stage with a huge spotlight, is he credible or not credible???

Using a secondary source rather than a primary source to support an assertion, check!

You hit them all this time. Your claim that Worden was FIRED because of the "Postage Stamp Scandal" is based entirely on a single book review:

Al Worden was at the peak of his career. He had just returned from the moon on what was being dubbed the greatest scientific expedition of the age. Upon his return to Earth he and his crewmates Commander Dave Scott and Lunar Module Pilot James Irwin met the president, spoke to Congress and were honored in a ticker-tape parade. In nine months he got a phone call stating that he was fired and that he needed to clean out his desk – he refused. What would follow went largely untold for four decades.

Your questionable source.

Do you really believe that secondary sources never get things wrong? Particularly Examiner.com, which exerts no editorial control at all over their contributors. (I can testify to this as I "generate content" for them myself.)

Jim Oberg, as always, has pointed out correctly that Worden's space walk was unique. In describing an intense or unique experience, one grasps for a comparison that one can relate to more readily. Such a comparison does not mean that the situation was in fact the simile. In other words, there have been times when I have camped out on bare rock, well above the treeline. By the light of the full Moon, I have said: "Wow! It's like we're standing on another planet!" We were not on another planet.

Originally posted by expat2368
I am constantly amazed that people refuse to believe even our own astronauts.

Everyone is screaming for "disclosure", what do they want? The Astronauts come out and openly state they have seen ET craft and say we are being visited and it is met with disbelief. Millions spent to train those guys, professionals who have been into space and even to the Moon.. and they are not believed.

It just is beyond comprehension.

Hear hear. I see this too, people yell for "evidence" and "no pics, didn't happen" all the time, when many, MANY respectable people have come forward, in essence ruining their career in the process. Some have even been murdered for telling us what they knew to be true. I personally do not think it's simply a non belief thing, I rather think it is a denial thing. Or a labelling to a more familiar term. (they are all demons)

It is clear that Planet Earth is at the end of a cycle. This has happened before, there is visible evidence of this, in sea fossils on mountain tops, and former cities beneath the waves. We have giant Monoliths that even modern man cannot build, or even conceive of building. We have artwork, cave paintings, mountainside carvings, lines in the desert not visible from the planet surface. (Nasca Lines) The evidence is more than clear for anyone who just stops believing what they are told, and looks around, and read and research for themselves. I sincerely believe the ETs are here to help us, Humanity to evolve, to Ascend to a Higher Level of Intelligence, and Higher Spiritual Aspect of Reality. This is not something new, in fact, it has happened just this way hundreds, maybe even thousands of times in the distant past. Earth Herself will Ascend, will you just plan to sty here, in this dimension?

A few links for those still in denial:

Are They Here? Find Out.

Suppressed/secret technology

Philip Corso Are we using Alien Technology today?

Extra Terrestrials & Contacts

Cosmic Top Secret

Unknown Intelligence Discovered!

Are extraterrestrials real? As real as the nose on your face.
(Sleeper's Experiences, later evolved into a BOOK.

Originally posted by ProudBird
reply to post by Cosmic911

 

Gordon Cooper, Edgar Mitchell, and Buzz Adrin have publically stated their belief that we have been visited by extraterrestrial entities.

Would like to see citations to this (Oh, I just saw the mention of a possible, if slightly illogical Pentagon briefing that Ed Mitchell attended that involved Dr. Greer...I agree that one sounds dubious, given what has come to light concerning Stephen Greer and his apparent falsehoods and deceptions).

I'd caution though, because it's easy to ascribe "they saw" to this, when in fact at most (from what I've been reading) the three you mention are relating either opinions based on assumption (i.e., it is certainly plausible, but not proven) or, in the case of Mitchell, although he has no personal sightings, he relates stories of what other (unnamed) people have told him.

Unless you have found something new?

edit on Sun 16 October 2011 by ProudBird because: (no reason given)

Thanks for the reply. Cooper definitely reported personal sightings, most notably the sighting at Edwards AFB. Aldrin reported a sighting on an interview for the Science Channel, during an Apollo mission. Did you see the video regarding the S4B? He discussed a UFO then. While it doesn't sound like a personal sighting, Buzz also described some kind of "monolith" on Mars moon. Buzz's interviews can be more nebulous at other times. He's a little bit of a mystery himself. In review of what I've researched, it appears only Mitchell does not have a personal sighting, his beliefs relating what other people saw. (as you observed).

Keep up the good work!

reply to post by autowrench

Actually your links do more to prove the post you responded to is false, than they do to confirm it.

The topic of this thread is astronaut credibility.

The on-topic post you replied to said something about astronauts seeing ETs.

I'm aware of no astronauts seeing ETs, and I see nothing in any of your links saying that they did, in fact there's a conspicuous absence of any astronaut claims of ETs in your links.

You went off the topic of the thread, astronaut credibility, why? Because there aren't any claims of astronauts seeing ETs, as the post you replied to claims?

reply to post by Human_Alien


"And the fact that the Vatican is now on board the alien wagon-train has really got to make ya wonder "WTF is going on here and....why?"

I also thought this was extremely odd.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


I'm looking for the rest of this interview. I tried to get your video link to work but could not.

Buzz video

ok why would they lie? they so old now nobody could spend money they have. im sure many talk shows would have them interviewed if they needed money.. They were in space a lot more than we all can say. they have nothing really to gain by lying im sure they are sorted with money. there are Nasa videos with ufo in them all over youtube not fake.

If they were selling their book on it maybe, but in the end it just gives the phenomena more credibility. Yet why isn't it world news that they are even talking about it. If i ask 10 people about it they would of never even herd of it happening.

Originally posted by JimOberg

Originally posted by Mcupobob
WHOA Whoa whoa. I want to see a source on this like yesterday, Its not that I don't believe you its just I want to see it for myself! If our moon/space walkers say theres aliens then theres aliens!

If they told you there was a Noah's Ark, would you conclude there really was a Noah's Ark?

Noah"s Ark? likely misidentified, likely something "else". As for Noah and the Ark? It's a composite on the old legend of "stories to explain what ain't easy to explain", such as the vast number of flood stories, etc. and other flood myths through history. Not that floods DON'T happen, they do why build such elaborate protocols&attempts to understand such things? Poop happens, and people need REASONS, at least thats a good sign in and of itself. The need to know is a basic human need to "figure things out". When we wrap it in a specific religious motif we deny the reason we invented religion in the first place; To understand when poop, etc, happens, and why we are, or "the meaning of it all", etc.

Originally posted by disownedsky

Originally posted by Human_Alien
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

99% of people realize the contactees are likely to be lying or delusional, especially the ones reporting contact with humanoids from Venus where it's hot enough to melt lead.

Where are you getting that statistic from? Was that just an arbitrary amount you picked because I passionately disagree.

And your line; "Venus where it's hot enough to melt lead" is being and staying ignorant.

Melting point of lead: 327.5 deg C
Temperature on surface of Venus: 480 deg C.

Original claim survives quick fact check.

When someone claims to have flown, (?) or whatever to Venus no doubt heat aside, sulfuric acid and 900 Degree temps (F) scale, is bad enough but the pressure on the surface ugh. Perhaps one we are talking about classical delusion, but I think more likely such non-sense is people making things up. Yet again, if someone has an experience and as far as they are concerned they "go someplace else", and they are told it's Venus, perhaps they should tell their hosts, (I would, if I'm not off the deep end in my own little self-reinforced delusion) Christ, I LOVE what you did to the place! Very nice. And while were on this subject, got any hints at terraforming? My point is people know Venus is a planet, lets just say "somewhere not here". So they/it gives it some silly such label. But I want a lot more info/details, and while your at it schematics or whatever you use to provide a layered 3D image of just where I am and why am I here. And buddy, Venus, doubtful, very doubtful.

Originally posted by Chris69
ok why would they lie? they so old now nobody could spend money they have. im sure many talk shows would have them interviewed if they needed money.. They were in space a lot more than we all can say. they have nothing really to gain by lying im sure they are sorted with money. there are Nasa videos with ufo in them all over youtube not fake.

If they were selling their book on it maybe, but in the end it just gives the phenomena more credibility. Yet why isn't it world news that they are even talking about it. If i ask 10 people about it they would of never even herd of it happening.

Astronauts are like the rest of us for the most part. The Apollo guys who made that journey, with the exception of I think Schmidt? (I'll check) The ONE guy with science credentials we ever sent to the moon! PhD in geology if meager-memory serves. All the rest were military, most I believe with test pilot credentials. When the Apollo project started it would have made sense, and it started in effect after JFK gave us the mandate to go to the moon, to say to those interested "If you end up going to the moon, we need good pilots and guys who won't freak out, military training for that is very helpful, BUT WE NEED guys with scientific credentials to after all, DO SCIENCE, look and apply "The Method"" (I don't mean acting either) to "OK, your there, now check t out..."

But hey anyone CAN lie, and part of disinformation is to have people of impeccable credentials say outrageous things. So we don't believe them. And just whats so freaking outrageous as the fact they may have seen things "interesting"? I do give them a lot of credit because of the ringer they went through. Don't mean I believe anything or everything with out proof&reputation of the party making said statements. I admire the people who had a chance to be the first in the needed adventure of human survival. Getting off this planet, and staying there. No not all of us but many in large numbers. These guys set the stage if the politics doesn't get in the way... I thank them for being the first, and envy them that effort and accomplishment no-end.

What we need is all of these astronauts who have storied regarding aliens to step out TOGETHER and voice it aloud "we're being visited." That would be something that would get mainstream attention. It needs to be a headline to ring the bells. When one of them states something, it sometimes ends up in papers, in the rumours section. That's not enough. They need to start to demand the truth publicly.

We're talking about the mainstream here. If all they can do is reveal this information in the midst of an hour-long spiritual conversation, nobody's ever gonna listen. They need to go flat-out in a way that makes the superficial mainstream people take notice.

Then again, will the mainstream listen when they don't have one picture of a flying saucer available.

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

 

SJ, in your book ALL Apollo astronauts are liars, frauds and propaganda puppets.

^^A 1-line response which is 100-percent ad hominem and 0-facts.

Try listening to Al Worden's Coast-to-Coast interview (3-parts) alworden.com...

Worden says "I believe that we are not alone and there are others out there" but "he does not disregard discussion" because "he hasn't seen the physical evidence of one (a ufo)".

So, in fact, Worden "believes" that there are "other intelligent beings out there" without "evidence".

Worden also mentions that he made comment on the Hugh Downs TV show where Worden embarrasses Dave Scott. Dave Scott later told Worden that Scott "would pick the questions and assign the answers" at future interviews... because Worden did say something that made Dave Scott red in the face.

Part 2 of the interview on Coast-to-Coast is where Al Worden details his being "fired" from NASA.

Worden states that NASA was "very upset" and "schizophrenic" about the souvenier postal covers. Worden talks about what other previous astronauts had brought with them on missions.

NASA required Worden to surrender the postal covers to Chris Kraft who sent them to the National Archives and they were locked in a safe deposit box with instructions to be never taken out. Many years later Worden wanted his cover back and had to file suit against NASA to get them.

2nd part of the Coast-to-Coast interview is where Al Worden says "I was fired."

Worden got a call from NASA told him to "clean out your office by Monday".

He tells the story of how he stayed in his office for months but he refused to leave until he had secured another job at NASA. Worden ironically refers to the situation as "radioactive".

Originally posted by Jonas86
What we need is all of these astronauts who have storied regarding aliens to step out TOGETHER and voice it aloud "we're being visited." That would be something that would get mainstream attention. It needs to be a headline to ring the bells. When one of them states something, it sometimes ends up in papers, in the rumours section. That's not enough. They need to start to demand the truth publicly.

We're talking about the mainstream here. If all they can do is reveal this information in the midst of an hour-long spiritual conversation, nobody's ever gonna listen. They need to go flat-out in a way that makes the superficial mainstream people take notice.

Then again, will the mainstream listen when they don't have one picture of a flying saucer available.

edit on 18-10-2011 by Jonas86 because: (no reason given)

Buddy, the main stream or just about anyone would not believe ANYTHING they see in any pictorial format, video, a picture taken with an electronic camera, or (I prefer to use this my self, a film camera, harder to "screw" with, and easy to spot as more-or-less legitimate. One can evaluate an original image and negative to see who's been, if anyone, "playing with-it".), Still people will not accept what does not fit into their paradigm, however "open minded" we all like to think we are. Why no nation on Earth would ever openly, and "have the President announce" "OK, we are being visited by well we really don't know, oh, we may know a little including some are "not very nice". Right. Of course if the current President said that the GOP (who should be expects on this subject) will say "he's (the current President) lost his mind". "Should be impeached", etc.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

 

We know that NASA is very protective of it's public image. NASA has huge propaganda staff (EPO) who "educate" journalists about every subject. NASA is also very much involved in "educating" school kids about space.

Stating biased personal opinion as "common knowledge," check!

So when Al Worden (Apollo 15 CMP) was FIRED for bringing 1: bringing undeclared contraband on the flight, in fact, several hundred postal covers, which were to be used for his own financial gain) and for 2: stating at a press conference that his EVA was like being on a stage with a huge spotlight, is he credible or not credible???

Using a secondary source rather than a primary source to support an assertion, check!

You hit them all this time. Your claim that Worden was FIRED because of the "Postage Stamp Scandal" is based entirely on a single book review:

DJW001, obviously, has not listened to the Al Worden interview on Coast-to-Coast, specifically part 2.

Al Worden says that "I was fired."

alworden.com...

Why was Al Worden fired? He was fired for the Postage Stamp Scandal .... but I also believe .... he was fired for making statements on TV that embarrassed Dave Scott and for making comments to newspapers "... it looked like a very large floodlight on a stage." All three of these could damage the reputation of NASA.

Al Worden says "back in the day I think there was a poll done" that "13% percent of the people of this country absolutely believe that we didn't go to the Moon but we did it all in Arizona."

Worden claims "there were hundreds of thousands of people that were in the program" and "the pictures that we brought back" and "the television that was on the flight" and he finds it hard to believe that people misinterpret this and came to the wrong conclusion that we never went to the Moon.

Now that Worden is back on good terms with NASA he is allowed to sell his autobiography and to have the postal covers returned to him.

Originally posted by JimOberg
Thanks for digging up Worden's quote. But I know of no evidence that it had anything to do with his being reprimanded [not fired] for the postage stamp deal.

Say-Jup, to appreciate his quote you might be aided by knowing why his space walk was fundamentally different from every previous Apollo space walk, or actually, every previous spacewalk in human history. You do know the difference, don't you?

I think his firing might have been a culmination of things... specifically how he was quoted at press conferences , his attitude at press conferences and his appearances on TV shows which might have appeared embarrassing for NASA. The incident with the postal covers being the last straw for Chris Kraft.

I wasn't aware of anything special about his EVA on A15. I'll need a hint!

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

DJW001, obviously, has not listened to the Al Worden interview on Coast-to-Coast, specifically part 2.

Al Worden says that "I was fired."

alworden.com...

Why was Al Worden fired? He was fired for the Postage Stamp Scandal .... but I also believe .... he was fired for making statements on TV that embarrassed Dave Scott and for making comments to newspapers "... it looked like a very large floodlight on a stage." All three of these could damage the reputation of NASA.

And you have obviously not read "Falling to Earth." In the book, Worden explains that NASA didn't fire astronauts because it would be bad publicity. Instead, they simply don't give them any important assignments and wait for the astronaut to figure it out. Worden was informed that he was being "reassigned to the Air Force." It was he himself who construed this to mean that he was being fired. He fought back and eventually managed to transfer to Ames, which has a much more laid back style than Houston. (It's located under California redwoods not far from San Francisco. Coincidence? I think not.)

If you had read the book, you would also see why he made the "stage light" comment, in context. He was about to begin the first ever deep space "space walk." It was the first space walk in which the Earth was not a friendly, looming presence. It was jet black, lit harshly by the Sun, with no helpful "fill" from earthshine. He compared it to the first dance at a prom! (This is a ritual ball held to celebrate graduation from High School in America.) The simile was to convey the sense of his nervousness as he was about to "start the dance." Why would NASA care about that? The astronauts have used all sorts of language to convey their other worldly experiences.

Before you accuse me of arguing semantics, you were the one who capitalized "fired" as though it were a statement of fact, rather than an expression of Worden's subjective experience. As usual, you are the one jumping on stray words and phrases and trying to inflate them into something they're not.

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

I think his firing might have been a culmination of things... specifically how he was quoted at press conferences , his attitude at press conferences and his appearances on TV shows which might have appeared embarrassing for NASA. The incident with the postal covers being the last straw for Chris Kraft.

You're welcome to think anything you want, but this thread is about astronauts' credibility. Seems to me Worden is particularly credible, although as pointed out earlier, his opinions about the possibility of life on other planets has no more weight than yours or mine.

Edit to add: I'm sure Chris Kraft was more concerned about the effect Worden's divorce had on public opinion than anything he may have said in an interview. The postage stamp scandal may indeed have been the last straw, but I think you've misidentified what the other straws were.

reply to post by DJW001

DJW001 "In the book, Worden explains that NASA didn't fire astronauts because it would be bad publicity."

Both his book and his interview are primary source materials. Deal with it. Al Worden says in the interview "I was fired."

He stayed in his office, refused to leave, didn't go to any meetings, but was still collecting a paycheck while he looked for another position. Worden uses the word "radioactive" to describe how he felt when his co-workers were ignoring him.

Speaking of bad publicity,

It's also bad for NASA publicity when an astronaut is quoted in the newspaper saying the Sun looked like a floodlight on a stage.

It's also bad for NASA publicity when Pete Conrad says the 16-mm film looked like "unreal" and "fake" at a press conference.

Pete Conrad:

I think this is one of the best 16-mm pictures I ever seen that Dick took of Intrepid leaving. We've done our separation and were waiting, excuse me, we've done our undocking and waiting for Dick to separate and leave us, so that we get over on the night side and do our first alignment prior to the descent orbit injection burn.

The first time I looked at this movie it looked so unreal to me I thought , if I saw that in a Hollywood movie I'd say that it was a fake... but I was there and so were Dick and Al and we'll all vouch for the real thing here.

Source: www.youtube.com...
The title of that video is "ASpacevidcast 2.35 honoring the Apollo 12 40th anniversary with Robert Godwin".
Pete Conrad makes a comment about the 16-mm films taken on Apollo 12 at 28m:33s in the video.


It's also bad for NASA publicity when an Command Module Pilot had an extra-marital affair.

Donn F. Eisele, Apollo 7, from Wikipedia:

.. excluded from Apollo 13 for incidents aboard Apollo 7 and for having an extra-marital affair.

It is a pattern of behaviour at NASA which indicates an obsessive-compulsive desire to maintain a version of history that they wrote themselves. In other words - it's propaganda.

DJW001 since you own and read the book why don't you quote from the book itself the pertinent parts which support your argument.

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter


Now, I'm not getting in the middle of this one because I am not familiar with any of the facts, and I'm certainly not taking a position on this, but, from this one quote, "He stayed in his office, refused to leave, didn't go to any meetings, but was still collecting a paycheck while he looked for another position." Worden uses the word "radioactive" to describe how he felt when his co-workers were ignoring him.

I'm thinking I would probably ignore another employee who "stayed in his office, refused to leave, didn't go to any meetings, and was still collecting a paycheck while looking for another position."

Just saying...lol

(thanks to you both for some good debating!)

reply to post by Cosmic911

Originally posted by Cosmic911
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

I'm looking for the rest of this interview. I tried to get your video link to work but could not.

Buzz video

Sorry about that, let me try again, I think there was a period there that wasn't supposed to be there:

Buzz Aldrin explains Apollo 11 UFO sighting - not an alien ship

If that link doesn't work you can copy-paste the title into youtube search and that will bring it to the top since it's the exact title.

Regarding the link you posted, that's the one I was talking about that was taken out of context. Here is an excerpt from an article Phil Plaitt wrote about it:

But there was a far worse breach in reality in the show, and this dealt with the famous Apollo 11 "UFO".

But, far worse, is what Buzz said to Dr. Morrison about the interview. The show took his words out of context to make it seem like they were seeing a UFO. That is unforgivable!

My friend David Morrison, who is an astronomer at NASA Ames in California, answers questions sent in to the Ask an Astrobiologist website. He got this very question! Here's his answer:

"I just talked to Buzz Aldrin on the phone, and he notes that the quotations were taken out of context and did not convey the intended meaning. After the Apollo 11 crew verified that the object they were seeing was not the SIVB upper stage, which was about 6000 miles away at that time, they concluded that they were probably seeing one of the panels from the separation of the spacecraft from the upper stage. These panels were not tracked from Earth and were likely much closer to the Apollo spacecraft. They chose not to discuss this on the open communications channel since they were concerned that their comments might be misinterpreted (as they are being now). Apparently all of this discussion about the panels was cut from the broadcast interview, thus giving the impression that they had seen a UFO."

I really hope you watch the video I gave you the title to, because it puts the sighting in context, which the show you mentioned failed to do, and Plaitt reamed them for it in that article.