Astronaunt Credibility: What do we believe?

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posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by Cosmic911
 


Well, when you say their beliefs, than no I wouldn't take their beliefs as fact, but if they came out and said they saw stuff while they were in space then yes, I would whole heatedly believe them over anyone else.
It's almost like me saying I believe the earth is flat, but the majority of people believe it is round. Just because I'm a satellite expert or an astronaut, me say ing I believe something doesn't make it true. Now, if I said I've been up there and I have seen that the earth is indeed flat, and by the way we have photos proving it but NASA won't reveal them, then people would be more inclined to believe me.

So, if we are only speaking about their beliefs, then no I won't take their word for it. Their beliefs are like mine, beliefs. Not eyewitness testimony.

By the way, just to clear up any confusion from this post, I don't believe the earth is flat, just some dramatic flair.




posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by Lynda101
I don't altogether think its fair to expect people like the astronaughts to give us anything other than the official line, simply because who is going to risk their government pension and healthcare, especially as they get older?


Lynda, we hear that claim a lot as an excuse for astronauts making statements inconvenient for UFO believers. It really 'explains everything' and neuters undesirable expert eyewitness testimony. It allows 'believers' to close their eyes and minds to research results they want to ignore.

But there's really no evidence that such a policy now exists, or ever did. Even Mitchell and Cooper made it clear they never were restricted from talking about the topic. At OMNI magazine in the early 1990, where I was a senior contributor, we spent literally YEARS seeking a single verifiable case of such retribution -- and came up empty handed.

Look at it this way. Once you get into the mindset that claims that the absence of evidence for something is PROOF it really exists but that the evil coverup is 100% effective, you've cast off all moorings to reality.

As some folks have commented here and on other threads, most of the stuff people present as evidence for astronaut encounters with UFOs in space is either grossly garbled, or entirely bogus -- and the evidence, in terms of verifiable astronaut testmony, supports that claim.

edit on 17-10-2011 by JimOberg because: typos



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 02:27 PM
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reply to post by Cosmic911
 


Yes, just the mention of Greer muddies the waters beyond hope. It sounds like disinfo to me.



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 03:15 PM
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Mitchell and Cooper have been very clear in their belief in alien visitation. Astronaut Deke Slayton reported a UFO while he was a test pilot in the early 50s but simply stated in his autobiography that "I don't know what it was, It was unidentified."



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 03:50 PM
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reply to post by Arbitrageur
 



99% of people realize the contactees are likely to be lying or delusional, especially the ones reporting contact with humanoids from Venus where it's hot enough to melt lead.




Where are you getting that statistic from? Was that just an arbitrary amount you picked because I passionately disagree.

And your line; "Venus where it's hot enough to melt lead" is being and staying ignorant. That's your problem, you're not considering other dimensions and the ability (somehow) for Humans to succumb and adjust to these unusual conditions and elements. You're stuck in this 3D and 6-sense limited reality.
Quantum physics already proves we live in multi-dimensions. Can't prove it however....you have to experience it. In fact, truth is not found. It's realized.

Just because we don't understand this phenomenon doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The Human race would never evolve if we just stuck to things we only understood. We don't even know why we use only 10% of our brain and only 2 strands of our DNA. So it's quite obvious, we have a very long ways to go until we're out of this cosmic kindergarten class.

I for one am not a liar, a truth bender nor am I delusional. In fact I am too awake, too smart, too sane and too aware...... much to my chagrin. So I have no agenda or reason to feel (rather, know) I had an experience. If anything it alienated me for a great while. Why the hell would I want that?

But now, almost 15 years later, the whole notion is better received. And by the way, people like me aren't out to prove to people like you or Oberg that this is real. I am trying to find out answers while on my journey. And unfortunately while on this pursuit, I often stumble across people like you (no disrespect intended) and all I can offer up is to say; 'you're very wrong in your ideologies regarding alien contact'

People like Oberg get paid to debunk so I sorta overlook and excuse him. But if you're just a regular person, trying to figure out life like the majority of us 'regular' folks than, all I can tell you is........there's so much more going on and it's very frustrating that very few (if any) can explain it.

Like Clifford Stone once said: The absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence.

I wish you luck m'friend. I truly hope you have an eye-opening epiphany some day soon
edit on 17-10-2011 by Human_Alien because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by Human_Alien

People like Oberg get paid to debunk so I sorta overlook and excuse him.


As with much of what you think you know, you're wrong here.

Since your comment implies I take a position for money rather than honest
research, if I took your views seriously, I'd resent the malicious smear.

But I don't, so I don't.



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 04:56 PM
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Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just because an astronaut has spent a little time in space doesn't make him an expert on anything except maybe rocket systems. Otherwise, they see a sparkly light in the sky (or space), and they're no more qualified to comment on what it is than I am.

But, fortunately, just like with everybody else, if they can cough up some real good evidence to support a particular hypothesis about UFOs being aliens (or whatever), then we'll certainly give them a fair hearing. They don't get any extra points just for being astronauts, though.



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by JimOberg

Originally posted by Human_Alien

People like Oberg get paid to debunk so I sorta overlook and excuse him.


As with much of what you think you know, you're wrong here.

Since your comment implies I take a position for money rather than honest
research, if I took your views seriously, I'd resent the malicious smear.

But I don't, so I don't.



You can't even admit THIS!


James Oberg worked twenty-two years at NASA Mission Control in Houston, specializing in orbital rendezvous, and is now a full-time free-lance consultant, author, speaker, and examiner of space folklore. He is a founding Fellow of CSICOP and a Skeptical Inquirer consulting editor.

www.csicop.org...


You are a debunker. That's your mission! You're here to challenge anything 'nefarious' about space, NASA, astronauts and UFOs. How can you say you're not PAID for this???

It's a very narrow-minded position for anyone to be in unless, there was money involved. How does anyone know conclusively about anything? Are you 'God's' spokesman?

You jump on every NASA, UFO thread and make everything sound like YOU and only YOU have it all figured out. That's a godlike position if I ever saw one.

I don't begrudge that you're paid (in fact, that's a great job) but I do resent that I have to deal with people like you though especially on a topic that's so very personal to me and many others.

Anyway....I am done with you Mr Oberg. You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't pull anything over on me. G'day. And you have my word, I will not mention you anymore from here on out.


This is what I was about to post before I saw this last post so without further ado:

UFO Best Evidence, Alien space ship Near NASA Sep 19,1973




posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by Lynda101
I don't altogether think its fair to expect people like the astronaughts to give us anything other than the official line, simply because who is going to risk their government pension and healthcare, especially as they get older?



On first glance, it may appear that way. But how would that really work out?

Let's say that Astronaut "Dave Bowman," beloved American hero who walked on the moon, comes out in his old age and says, "Oh, yeah! We saw the flying saucers! Have great pictures and while we were on the moon, we have recordings, still classified, of their attempts to communicate with us on our radio bands."

The next week, the headlines read, "Astronaut Dave Bowman files suit against government for withholding his pension!"

Or worse, "Astronaut and family die in a series of mysteries accidents!"

Nope, not a reasonable scenario. These men may be tempted to speculate and tell stories they have heard from their jet-pilot days because there is a financial incentive for having sensational stories to share on talk shows; but as for keeping quiet on any sensational stories-- no financial (or any other) incentive exists.

Perhaps the real problem is that going to the moon, once, was exiting for the world, but going again provoked yawns from those who did not see it as anything but a race. For those who cannot conceivce of any other reason to go to the moon or even into space other than "to beat the Ruskies," the whole thing is anti-climactic.

So, to retain, or regain, or even create (out of nothing, for some) that sensational excitement, some persons crave having their wildest imagination be proved as a truth.

Part II
Not directly to your post, but indirectly from this thread and those like it, is this:

A lot of the conspiracy theory popularity is akin to the Millennialism phenomenon. Y2K and religious Dooms Day scenarios were world wide in countless variations in the 1990's, and no sooner did 2001 pass, then 2012 became the date.

The most recent ones figure into the global anxiety produced by the early reports of Greek financial troubles threatening the whole European economy, then the Arab Spring and US economic woes added fuel to the fire. And how many prophecies on ATS have there been, and how many more will there be? The alien encounter scenarios, and the 9/11 scenarios-- are all about acknowledging the sense of not having control-- but in ways which require no action. Elenin, UARS, hidden brown dwarfs, HAARP, and others, serve as good examples.

But I lived through the "Harmonic Convergence;" the "Countdown to Armageddon;" Comets Kohoutek and Hale-Bopp; Y2K, and so on-- knew I would because I had the education and analytic skills to identify the logic errors made by the fear-mongers who had their 15 minutes of fame or sold books, are gathered influence among others for the sole purpose of profiteering on anxiety. It is sad to see those profiteers defended, and the real heroes smeared by them-- not to mention the real heroic deeds of men like Buzz Aldrin, so often denied.

To what do we aspire if we can have no control, if we are certain of doom, and if real heroes only lied?

I have an answer, and the answer is in the study of history. Mankind is resilient. Mankind has just the heroes needed when all seems lost. Mankind is inventive, bold, and there are just enough with true virtue to make it all worthwhile-- to make one believe in a "more" than being just a smart animal with opposable thumbs. Mankind manifests the soul.



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by Frira
 


You fail to mention the scenario that maybe some people ARE finally telling the truth after all!

This happened to Jackie Gleason too. He comes out and finally reveals his experiences about UFOs and POTUS Nixon and [[[[bam]]] he's portrayed as a drunken depressed over-the-hill actor.
However, his own ex-wife vouched for him but still...that wasn't enough.

The media (and paid debunkers) have the last word. In fact, many videos that used to be on YouTube, no longer exist. Amazing, eh?

To people who know the truth, no tangible proof is necessary. But to people who don't believe, no proof is good enough.



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 05:25 PM
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reply to post by JimOberg
 


I put forward the only point that I could understand as a reason for the early astronaughts to not mention anything they may have seen. Obviously only they know what they witnessed. Also witnesses see different perspectives - crime witnesses are a good example of this, so film is probably better.

You didn't comment on the documentary I mentioned with the pilots. Now these people I would be happy to believe especially when corroborated three ways between pilot, tower and passenger.

I find the thought we managed in the 1960's to actually land to the moon, minus sophisticated technology, then we totally ignorred the moon and as good as forgot about it for nearly 50 years. That beggars belief for me.



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by Cosmic911
Dr. Edgar Mitchell reported that in 1997, he, Dr. Greer, and Commander Will Miller requested a "high level" appointment with intelligence officers at the Pentagon regarding their experiences and knowledge. They were granted the meeting. Dr. Mitchell reports that these intelligence officers confirmed that the experiences of Mitchell, Greer, and Miller were valid and that there had been an ongoing investigation and official denial of an alien presence. Supposedly, this meeting at the Pentagon was the subject of denial. He reports this was because Special Access Programs (SAPs) cannot be admitted, not even by those with the necessary security clearance.

I find these story a little suspect, as why would Dr. Greer, a civilian with no known security clearance (that I'm aware of) or any "need to know," be allowed in a meeting with high-level Pentagon intelligence officers, told of the alien presence and why the need to keep it buried in special access programs. I also find it in stark contrast to the time the late Senator Barry Goldwater, also a Brigadier General, when requesting information regarding Roswell from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Curtis Lemay, was cussed out by Lemay and told "never to ask him about this ever again."
edit on 16-10-2011 by Cosmic911 because: (no reason given)


Your point about "Dr. Greers access" is well taken. Truth is I have no idea what access he has or does not have. Also, SCA is usually "conditional" as in a specific need to know or be aware of a certain select area. All compartmented access "is self expiring". Having access of a certain type today does not mean it can exist tomorrow, in fact it usually won't. I don't know why someone would or would not have access. But in the case where someone was given access and later revealed not to have been a good idea, even in certain areas of access enough disinformation may be included to "render inert" any useful information someone may have had access to. Or at least I heard that once.

The comment by Goldwater was indeed quite interesting, to say the least. But given the nature of the beast, if he didn't need to know based on the "Source" of disclosure, who grants access to the holy-of-holy's of the given item at any given moment, LaMays comment is SOP. And no doubt pissed the Senator off no end...



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by Human_Alien
reply to post by Frira
 


You fail to mention the scenario that maybe some people ARE finally telling the truth after all!

This happened to Jackie Gleason too. He comes out and finally reveals his experiences about UFOs and POTUS Nixon and [[[[bam]]] he's portrayed as a drunken depressed over-the-hill actor.
However, his own ex-wife vouched for him but still...that wasn't enough.

The media (and paid debunkers) have the last word. In fact, many videos that used to be on YouTube, no longer exist. Amazing, eh?

To people who know the truth, no tangible proof is necessary. But to people who don't believe, no proof is good enough.



I "failed to mention?" Failed?

I believe what you mean, is that my post did not address what you wanted it to address-- I did not fail, but rather I wrote exactly what I wanted to write.

Evidence of my assumption is that you failed to address a single statement from my post.

If you want to engage me, then do so; but that requires your reading (with comprehension) what I wrote, first.



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 06:57 PM
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reply to post by Frira
 


Forgive me. I wasn't arguing with you at all.

I read your post (with college-like comprehension, thank you) as if you were giving the only scenarios available. That's how I read into it anyway.

A lot gets lost in translation and affect when reading a 'post' so please, I apologize but you may want to ask a person how they might've arrived at something before launching an attack.

Thanks



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 07:31 PM
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reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


There is a video of Aldrin which aired on the Science channel on youtube...it lasts approx 3.53. It revolves around the S4B.



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 07:37 PM
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I suppose they lie for the money, because they didn't make enough as being astronauts especially those pioneer baffoons, crazy old men...I mean why be remembered for being the 1st to orbit earth or the 2nd and 6th men on the moon when you can be remembered as that old lunatic that told us they saw UFOs or are sure aliens visit earth, to sell a book. Option 2 sounds way better doesn't it?




posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by Blue Shift
Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just because an astronaut has spent a little time in space doesn't make him an expert on anything except maybe rocket systems. Otherwise, they see a sparkly light in the sky (or space), and they're no more qualified to comment on what it is than I am.

But, fortunately, just like with everybody else, if they can cough up some real good evidence to support a particular hypothesis about UFOs being aliens (or whatever), then we'll certainly give them a fair hearing. They don't get any extra points just for being astronauts, though.


What happened to NASA's slogan (paraphrasing) only the finest pilots and the bravest men are chosen to be astronauts?

I guess they didn't care much about their propensity to be terrible observers and yet very talented raconteurs!



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 08:27 PM
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Originally posted by Cosmic911
reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


There is a video of Aldrin which aired on the Science channel on youtube...it lasts approx 3.53. It revolves around the S4B.
Since you STILL haven't posted a video, I don't know which one you.re referring to.

But you have to be careful, as some of those documentaries are edited, and I think Aldrin complained about at least one documentary for not including all his commentary and creating some misleading impressions for the audience.

If it's the "S4B incident" you're referring to, here is an unedited version of his commentary on the Larry King show where he explains he's 99.999% sure the object he saw was a part of his own spacecraft. It ejected 4 panels that covered the lunar lander so those 4 panels were floating around and eventually reached such a distance that they could see something was there, but it was too far away to make a 100% positive ID, that's why he says he's only 99.999% sure that's what it was.

Buzz Aldrin explains Apollo 11 UFO sighting - not an alien ship

So once again, unless you have some evidence that Buzz Aldrin thinks aliens are visiting, you should retract your claim in the OP. This video is clear evidence that he doesn't think the "S4B incident" involved aliens.



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 08:53 PM
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reply to post by Arbitrageur
 




Yeah but......(according to certain people on this thread).............we can't count on Buzz's or any astronauts' testimony anymore. Whatever they say is questionable at best.

We might as well be consulting with tea leaves and a Magic 8-ball for Apollo answers



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by Human_Alien
reply to post by Arbitrageur
 



99% of people realize the contactees are likely to be lying or delusional, especially the ones reporting contact with humanoids from Venus where it's hot enough to melt lead.




Where are you getting that statistic from? Was that just an arbitrary amount you picked because I passionately disagree.

And your line; "Venus where it's hot enough to melt lead" is being and staying ignorant.


Melting point of lead: 327.5 deg C
Temperature on surface of Venus: 480 deg C.

Original claim survives quick fact check.





 
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