It all Boils Down to Faith

IMHO, what each of us chooses to believe, ultimately comes down to, where we place our faith. Are you the type of person who places your faith in man, or do put your faith in God, or a higher power? No one can prove the existence of God, but no one can disprove that He exists either. To me, it is hard to understand why someone would choose to put their faith into man, when we know that man lies, manipulates, and caters to his own hidden agenda.

A good example is the Global Warming theory. Many scientist state that there is a global warming trend, and others deny that any warming exists. Either the data confirms it or doesn't, but depending where the individual scientist receives his funding, he will decide which side of the fence he is on. As for me, I choose to put my faith in a benevolent being (God) who cannot lie. I know, to many, this may seem illogical to belief in a being whose existence cannot not be verified, but these same people will put their trust into science that has varying opinions.

I think there are many of us that can sense something big is happening. I believe it is more important than ever that we put our faith in God. If this post only convinces one person to start putting their faith in God instead of the arm of flesh, it will have been time well spent, IMHO.

reply to post by MitchL61


You're right! It does come down to whom you have faith in or believe in.

I put my faith and money on the only person I know that can make the best decisions and to do the right thing....ME!

I do not put faith in Man, God or anyone else. Therefore, I cannot blame anyone else either. If something insults my intelligence than I cast it aside and look for something else.

If you can chose to accept putting blind faith into a faceless "deity".. There is only one truth.. The universe is "god".. And i use the term "god" loosely.

The problem with religion is many people realize this fact.. But over the centuries People could not come to terms with worshiping a "nameless being"..

So in human nature they "supplied" a story, and name.. To a nameless entity..

In other words "god" exists.. "god is our creator.. "god" is the universe.

reply to post by MitchL61


Yeah 21 of these 22 religions also boil down to faith (Atheism excluded):

1.Christianity: 2.1 billion

2.Islam: 1.5 billion

3.Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

4.Hinduism: 900 million

5.Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

6.Buddhism: 376 million

7.primal-indigenous: 300 million

8.African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

9.Sikhism: 23 million

10.Juche: 19 million

11.Spiritism: 15 million

12.Judaism: 14 million

13.Baha'i: 7 million

14.Jainism: 4.2 million

15.Shinto: 4 million

16.Cao Dai: 4 million

17.Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

18.Tenrikyo: 2 million

19.Neo-Paganism: 1 million

20.Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

21.Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

22.Scientology: 500 thousand

Source. So there's less than a 5% chance that you chose the right religion. Good luck.

reply to post by MitchL61


Thank you for posting this. I really needed this as a reminder, to put my faith in God and not in myself or others. And when I do put faith in myself, or others, and things pull through nicely for me for a change, I briefly take the credit for taking the action I took, then I briefly give the credit to the other person/s, and then I fully uplift it all to jthe God Head: God, His son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

If you try and rationalize a belief in any diety, regardless of religious denomination, then you are correct, the only evidence you have to support that belief is your personal faith, and that isn't really evidence at all.

Having "faith in man" is a complete other story. If we choose to believe and put our trust in man, we can be lied to, we can be mistreated, we can be killed, but we can also be loved, befriended and cherished for a lifetime.

Not everything is as cut and dry as the religious debate tries to make it seem, however when it comes down to evidence versus faith, evidence wins out time and again. Faith in itself is an oxymoron because it is the blind belief in something despite the lack of evidence to support it. You can substitute Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, or God if you wish, but the fact remains that there is no one to substanciate any claims made by this diety but the individual, and all of them are unfounded.

To say faith in man is simliar is not really a tie-in, more of a stretch, because we can at least show examples of both sides of the fence where man has been brutal, malevolent and downright evil, but we can also show amazing acts of compassion, love and kinship that border on pure good, and none of them have anything to do with your god.

If your or anyone else chooses to believe or put faith in a magical being, regardless of title, then you are entitled to do so. But it is when those claims are set forth at "truth" and "fact" while using their belief systems to oppress others that a line must be drawn and evidence must be asked for to substanciate the claims of the individual(s).

So as the saying goes, you can have your religion, just don't go shoving it down my throat.

IF I was to put any sort of faith in anything, it would HAVE to be man, because at least man can be proven to be one or the other, physically seen, heard and interacted with as well as verified by multiple witnesses.

Or should we believe in a magical sky daddy who's never been heard from, seen or verifed; let alone the religious of the world can't make up their mind on what he/she looks like or has done/said over the millenia.

Just MY opinion.

King

Originally posted by TupacShakur
reply to post by MitchL61

 

Yeah 21 of these 22 religions also boil down to faith (Atheism excluded):

1.Christianity: 2.1 billion

2.Islam: 1.5 billion

3.Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

4.Hinduism: 900 million

5.Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

6.Buddhism: 376 million

7.primal-indigenous: 300 million

8.African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

9.Sikhism: 23 million

10.Juche: 19 million

11.Spiritism: 15 million

12.Judaism: 14 million

13.Baha'i: 7 million

14.Jainism: 4.2 million

15.Shinto: 4 million

16.Cao Dai: 4 million

17.Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

18.Tenrikyo: 2 million

19.Neo-Paganism: 1 million

20.Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

21.Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

22.Scientology: 500 thousand

Source. So there's less than a 5% chance that you chose the right religion. Good luck.

edit on 4-8-2011 by TupacShakur because: To edit my post

Actually even atheism boils down to faith. They're putting all their eggs in the basket that says "there is no god therefore I can do whatever I want because I will never have to pay for any wrong doings or face any punishment for how I lived my life.".. so really its all faith. Everyone has faith, even if they don't realize it or refuse to admit the obvious, its just a matter of where that faith is put. Even scientists use faith once they reach the extremes of what science can prove, i.e. the "before" the big bang.

Originally posted by Key-Minder
reply to post by MitchL61

 

Thank you for posting this. I really needed this as a reminder, to put my faith in God and not in myself or others. And when I do put faith in myself, or others, and things pull through nicely for me for a change, I briefly take the credit for taking the action I took, then I briefly give the credit to the other person/s, and then I fully uplift it all to jthe God Head: God, His son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Just be glad you have someone else to blame when you make mistakes, it must be pretty easy to get away with anything then right?

I have never understood the circular logic involved with thinking a magical being controls your every move. It is perfectly logical to think that if you brought a couple extra napkins with you in the car and your drink happened to spill that "god" told you to do it, only if the reverse it true that the car accident you got involved in and the months of pain and physical therapy were a result of your "god's" descision to distract you while driving through an intersection.

I'm not speaking about you directly, I am merely adressing your comment on a general level, so please don't take it personally.

Religious circular logic just dumfounds me, the irony is so thick it could cut tank armor.

King

reply to post by Watts


Straw man argument.

You obviously don't grasp the concept of atheism. Athiesm has nothing to do with faith, PERIOD. It is a LACK of faith.

Just in case you forgot what faith means, check this out,

Merriam-Webster defines it as:

2a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion

b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof

[^^^^^All of these which athiests DO NOT believe in^^^^^^^]

You must first understand that atheists reserve judgement until evidence is supported to substanciate the claims made by the theist, until then, they consider your stories delusions of grandure or wishful thinking, not a BELIEF IN NOTHING, or any other such nonsense.

"there is no god therefore I can do whatever I want because I will never have to pay for any wrong doings or face any punishment for how I lived my life."

This is just utter nonsense. Social and written laws determine how people act in public and private, not your diety. We are responsible for our actions based on how we interact with each other. This is why it is acceptable to cut off someone's hands for stealing in a muslim country, but not acceptable here. It is acceptable to treat women like second class citizens in many other countries, but not here.

Just because we don't have a magical man telling us what to do, doesn't make us all rampant lunatics breaking laws just because we think we can get away with it. We are law abiding citizens and good people too, even without your faith.

Even scientists use faith once they reach the extremes of what science can prove, i.e. the "before" the big bang.

Scientists may speculate and hypothesize, but that is what they are supposed to do, come up with what they think happen. However they DO NOT pass it off as absolute truth just because it sounds good. They have to be able to test their findings, verify them and have them checked and verified by others with the same results to have it accepted as fact, unlike the continuing quest for proof of....well, we all know where this is going.

King

reply to post by MitchL61


One thing you notice about believers is that they have no faith.
They are always prattling on about how precious life is. Even the
brain dead must be saved from death.

Faith and Belief are the opposite things. If you are a believer
than you have no faith. If you have faith than you dont need beliefs.

Faith is an intuition in the Oneness of Reality. Real faith is spirituality.
Belief is just self hypnosis.

My interpretation of all of this? I believe Abrahamic religions are the most watered down belief systems in order for mankind to truly get it. I am starting to think that this was a good idea many, many eons ago. However, man even found a way to bastardize and profit from even the simplest understanding of our purpose and the greater good. One of us came here and died for us.

Having faith isn't necessarily having faith as some know it today. IMO, it means having faith that there is something greater than you in your physical body. Meaning, what you seek is already within you but it isn't skin color, financial status, some red pen wielding "god" etc. It is inside of us because we are a part of It. I believe in a Higher Source. Mankind became so simple that we digressed into the madness we live in now. Christ figuratively and literally removed (exposed the necessity - the veil isn't necessary) of the veil. Christ also spoke in parables as to not upset the priests and the establishment.

Having and realizing true faith is just the springboard into truly understanding your purpose as well as the message of Christ. Once we can wrap our minds around this then we can graduate to another level of understanding and being.

reply to post by Kingalbrect79


Attempting to do word tricks with a dictionary doesn't really change the fact that atheists have "faith" that there is no god or all powerful being.

Look at dictionary.com if you want to go that route:
faith   [feyth] Show IPA
noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

Maaaaybe you should have looked up the definition of "atheist" while you were at it since you've set the dictionary as a reliable source to use in this debate: (via dictionary.com)
a·the·ist   [ey-thee-ist] Show IPA
noun
1. a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

reply to post by Watts

Actually even atheism boils down to faith. They're putting all their eggs in the basket that says "there is no god therefore I can do whatever I want because I will never have to pay for any wrong doings or face any punishment for how I lived my life.".. so really its all faith.

Wow talk about a biased view of atheism. Do you think atheists just run around banging hookers, killing people, committing crimes, and all of that stuff because we know we won't be punished? No, we just are rational enough to understand that some powerful and undetectable mystery wizard didn't clap his hands causing Earth and life to appear. We aren't a cult of remorseless sociopaths that wreak havoc on society because we know there will be no punishment, we're normal people who don't believe in fairy tales.

Atheists don't have faith that there is no creator, we understand that a creator and afterlife is just a cop-out for science, a coping mechanism to alleviate the fear of death, and an insanely unrealistic and impractical explanation for the universe. Atheisms operate under rationality, not faith.

Everyone has faith, even if they don't realize it or refuse to admit the obvious, its just a matter of where that faith is put. Even scientists use faith once they reach the extremes of what science can prove, i.e. the "before" the big bang.

Sure, we don't know what happened before the Big Bang, because there wasn't anything to measure back then. All we have is the cosmic microwave background radiation, and a rate of expansion to tell us what the beginning of the universe was like.

Sure, scientists don't fully understand the Big Bang, but they don't just give up and say "Oh, there was some dude, and he just like created it one day because he's powerful and stuff", they continue working to figure out what caused it.

Scientists don't know what created the Big Bang yet, but do religious people know what created God?

Science advances as new evidence surfaces, it builds on previous theories, and adapts based on the knowledge that we gain in certain areas. Our scientific understanding of the universe has increased tremendously in the past hundreds of years.

Religion on the other hand flatlines when it comes to advancement. It has been static for hundreds of years, it's just the same old teachings that never change. The only thing that has increased in religion isn't knowledge, understanding, or evidence to back it up, but instead the number of people that subscribe to the fairy tale that has absolutely no evidence of proof backing it.

reply to post by Watts


Thank you for your comment. This is exactly the point I'm trying to make with my post. Everyone has to place their faith in something. If someone believes in evolution, then they are placing their faith in Darwin, and other theorists like him, or in the teacher who taught them evolution. Unless someone has actually taken the time to uncover evidence, conducted experiments, and substantiated findings for themselves, then they are placing their faith in what others have learned for themselves. So I can make the same argument for religion. If I have studied my scriptures, prayed, received answers for myself from the Holy Spirit confirming questions, seen blessings come from keeping the commandments, then I can truly say I have proof and evidence that God exists. That does not mean others will be convinced by my testimony. Only when a person is willing to experiment for themselves, and do their own investigating, will they be able to find the proof they are looking for.

Originally posted by Watts
Actually even atheism boils down to faith. They're putting all their eggs in the basket that says "there is no god therefore I can do whatever I want because I will never have to pay for any wrong doings or face any punishment for how I lived my life.".. so really its all faith. Everyone has faith, even if they don't realize it or refuse to admit the obvious, its just a matter of where that faith is put. Even scientists use faith once they reach the extremes of what science can prove, i.e. the "before" the big bang.

If god never said murder was wrong, would you be ok with murder? What about theft? Rape? You personally need god to tell you these things are wrong to know they are? I don't. What about the immoral things god either allowed or never talked about, like slavery, or the poor treatment of women? Do these things not bother you?

Atheists get their morals either solely from common sense and empathy, or subscribe to some other form of philosophy. As I'm sure you do, not from god.

Science is the opposite of faith. You're really stretching semantics to say that evidence and research take as much faith as an old book. And it's not faith when discussing highly unmeasurable situations, for several reasons. One, they're considered as possibilities, not accepted as fact until proven. Second, they hypothesize situtations, for direction for future study, To either prove or disprove when more facts emerge.

reply to post by TupacShakur


Last time I checked, we're all middlemen in this game. I highly doubt you're a scientist that has discovered anything in space for yourself so it could more than easily be said that its ironic that on a website based around conspiracy theories etc, where NASA is PROVEN to withhold/distort the truth and even flat out lie, you put ALL of your faith in what "the scientists"(that have been proven to sometimes lie to us) have told you lol.

Am I arguing that everything Nasa has said is a lie? Lol no, I'm just pointing out that while you arrogantly say belief in God is a fairy tale and mock the idea that something beyond our comprehension created the universe, you really don't know anything significant for yourself either outside of what you read on some website or in a book written by those same scientists. The idea that the infinitely complex universe randomly popped into existence from absolutely nothing for no special reason is just as outlandish and fairy tale-ish to me, as my belief in God is to you.

Don't get it twisted, you can believe whatever you want, I don't look at anyone any different for being atheist, hindu, muslim, or whatever. You are free to believe whatever you want. Your life has absolutely nothing to do with mine. I only argue the hypocrisy in the debate of "God" vs. "No God because its silly to think a powerful entity created this all when we all know it just randomly appeared out of a literal nowhere and the billions of coincidences that allow life to exist are ONLY coincidences and nothing more." You have your fairy tale, I have mine. And I'm totally fine with it.

Edit:
And I'll also add that yes, I do have a slightly biased view of atheists. Its one of my short-comings, I will own that. Is it wrong? Yeah. I have no problem admitting that at all. I honestly make efforts to change my outlook but it is what it is. Forgive my casting of judgement, it wasn't my intention to portray ALL atheists as wild immoral hooligans just because of a few personal experiences with them.

reply to post by MitchL61

someone believes in evolution, then they are placing their faith in Darwin, and other theorists like him, or in the teacher who taught them evolution.

Your ignorance makes me want to stab myself in the knee. You can't have faith in facts, evolution is a fact. Would you like to "uncover the evidence" that backs up evolution? [atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fc07dcbd42f1.jpg[/atsimg] Wolves evolved into this: [atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/140d57663485.jpg[/atsimg] as well as every other breed of dog that we see today.

You want to see the evidence backing up creationism?: [atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8b1826ef31bf.jpg[/atsimg]

You can't have faith in something that has proof backing it up, faith refers to a belief in a concept that has no proof backing it. Evolution has evidence to back it up.

So I can make the same argument for religion. If I have studied my scriptures, prayed, received answers for myself from the Holy Spirit confirming questions, seen blessings come from keeping the commandments, then I can truly say I have proof and evidence that God exists.

Yeah I read about some pretty convincing stuff in a book also: [atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/deaf52479bbd.jpg[/atsimg] I've studied the teachings of the Jedi extensively, and I can truly say that I have proof and evidence that Star Wars exists.

You say you've prayed and received answers, what were those prayers about? Did your prayers to end world hunger get answered? Did your prayers to give every homeless person a home to live in get answered? Did your prayers to end all wars get answered? Did your prayers to cure all diseases get answered? Did you prayers to save all terminally ill children from an untimely death get answered? Did your prayers to erase the Holocaust, and all of the other genocides that have taken place get answered? Nope, but I bet a lame prayer prayer for a job interivew callback or a headache to go away have been answered.

Prayer doesn't work, if it did, I would be the most deeply religious person on the planet, and I would devote my life to God and changing the world for the better. But it doesn't work that way, people pray that their husband won't die on his hospital bed, or they pray that their mentally retarded children will wake up with a normal intelligence level, but they're never answered by God.

The only prayers that people claim are answered occur because of a self-fulfilling prohpesy, meaning that the first thing that even remotely resembles something that you prayed about occurs and you conclude that your prayer was answered, when in reality it was just a meaningless event that would have occured either way.

That does not mean others will be convinced by my testimony. Only when a person is willing to experiment for themselves, and do their own investigating, will they be able to find the proof they are looking for.

Yeah, well I'm not going to devote my life to investigating religion when there is no proof for any of them. Also, which religion would I even choose? Should I construct a Wheel-of-Fortune type mechanism that lands on a religion and I go with it? Do I join the religion with the most followers? The religion that my peers are a part of? The religion that is most beneficial to society? There is no way to know which religion is the correct one, so what if you spent your whole life believing in one religion, and then you die and find out you were wrong? Would it be fair that you're punished for eternity because you didn't pick up the right book and go into the right expensive building and listen to the right religious sermon?

reply to post by TupacShakur


Your ignorance makes me want to stab YOU in the knee. I believe in God because I have investigated religion for myself, not because someone else investigated it, and told me their findings. Stop trying to make personal attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with you, and do a little investigating of your own instead of relying on others research.

reply to post by Watts

Last time I checked, we're all middlemen in this game. I highly doubt you're a scientist that has discovered anything in space for yourself so it could more than easily be said that its ironic that on a website based around conspiracy theories etc, where NASA is PROVEN to withhold/distort the truth and even flat out lie, you put ALL of your faith in what "the scientists"(that have been proven to sometimes lie to us) have told you lol.

Yeah I'm not a scientist, but I will be in 4.5 years after I major in Astronomy and Physics.

The thing that makes science different is the evidence backing it that is always provided when a new discovery is made. NASA doesn't just hold a press conference and say "Listen up fools, there are rogue planets made of an alien-engineered diamond like substance that are flying randomly around our solar system. Proof? I said so, there's your proof".

Am I arguing that everything Nasa has said is a lie? Lol no, I'm just pointing out that while you arrogantly say belief in God is a fairy tale and mock the idea that something beyond our comprehension created the universe, you really don't know anything significant for yourself either outside of what you read on some website or in a book written by those same scientists.

Yes, but they provide the evidence, the mathematical equations and calculations, the proof, the observations, the patterns, and any other proof backing up the theories. I actually understand many of the concepts, just because I had to learn it from somebody who learned it before me doesn't mean it's false, that's stupid.

I understand the evidence backing up the Big Bang, I understand how planets and stars form, I understand the expansion of the universe, I understand why galaxies bunch together, I understand why stars go supernova, I understand why the earth revolves around the sun, because any person can learn these concepts and confirm or refute them by making their own calculations, observations, and so on.

With religion, it's just "Daddy, how did the earth and life form?", "Well son, some omnipotent fairy-man used his magical powers to create everything. Nevermind the many other religions that have a different theory, this is what happened because my dad told me that it happened and I read about it in a book, his dad told him that's what happened because he read about it in a book, and so on".

You had to learn religion from somebody who understood it before you, so I could turn the tables and argue that you don't know anything significant other than what you were born being thumped with when you went to church with your family/peers. If you were born in an atheist community that doesn't even discuss the concept of religion, what is the likelihood that you would discover it for yourself?

If you were born in a society that didn't teach science on the other hand, you could figure out concepts without some old guy in a dress teaching them to you. Gravity: Things fall to the earth, I bet we could both figure that out pretty early in our life without a scientist teaching it to us. Could we figure out that a powerful ghost-man created everything without our family, peers, or churches teaching it to us? Absolutely not.

The idea that the infinitely complex universe randomly popped into existence from absolutely nothing for no special reason is just as outlandish and fairy tale-ish to me, as my belief in God is to you.

That's our current understanding though, there are theories that explain the Big Bang such as parallel universes creating a new universe when they collide, universes budding off from other universes like soap bubbles, and so on.

I completely disagree with what you're saying, just because we don't understand what kick-started the Big Bang and the creation of the complex universe doesn't mean that we cop-out and say "One day, there was a guy who created everything without somehow creating himself first."

The idea that some naturally occuring scientific phenomenon created the universe is not even in the ballpark of an invisible omnipotent man creating everything and sitting up in the clouds with our dead relatives.

Way back in the day, people didn't understand what the Sun was, so they worshipped it as a God because that's the best explanation they could come up with based on their primitive knowledge. Of course now we know what caused the sun to form, so the idea that it was some ball of God-juice sounds silly to us.

In hundreds of years, people will look back on the idea of some bearded cloud-dweller creating the universe and all of life and they will laugh. It will be no different than people laughing at the idea of a Sun-god.

You have your fairy tale, I have mine. And I'm totally fine with it.

That's not a fairy tale. That's a scientific theory based on the evidence. Sure, there were tons of coincidences, the star that went supernova where our solar system currently is just happened to contain the perfect amount of mass for all of the planets to form exactly as they did, the earth just happened to be the right distance from the sun to ensure the the water would remain in a liquid state, the right chemical composition just happened to come together one day and eventually evolve into the complex organisms that are smart enough to understand those concepts. But the thing about those stroke of lucks is that they happened.

The universe is so big and has been around for so long that the conditions for life would eventualy arise. Hundreds of billions of galaxies containing hundreds of billions of stars being in existence for billions of years will eventually develop a planet that's suitable for life, just like eventually somebody will win the lottery or be struck by lightning. A deity controls the order of the universe as much as he controls whether or not it will rain tomorrow or whether I will be killed in a head-on-crash tommorow, things just happen and that's the way it is.

The fairy tale is the idea that a mystical sorcerer created everything, a man survived in a fish for three days, an old guy put two of every animal on a boat and somehow kept them alive without starving to death or eating each other, a ghost-sperm impregnated a virgin, a talking bush, parting a sea with God-fueled telekinesis, and so on.

Science is not a fairy tale, religion is.

reply to post by MitchL61

Your ignorance makes me want to stab YOU in the knee. I believe in God because I have investigated religion for myself, not because someone else investigated it, and told me their findings.

If you were born in Afghanistan, Somalia, China, Vietnam, or Thailand, would you have investigated the religion that you are currently a part of, or would you investigate the religion that your family and peers are a part of and instilled into you from birth?

Stop trying to make personal attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with you,

You made the thread, I'm participating in the discussion. What do you expect when you make a religious thread? Only the people that agree with you will post, and those who disagree will not post?

and do a little investigating of your own instead of relying on others research.

What are you referring to? The Bible?

And why didn't you answer any of the questions in my last post that was directed towards you? You have enough faith to believe in a story that has no evidence backing it, but you don't have enough faith to answer questions that somebody who questions your faith asks?