It all Boils Down to Faith

reply to post by MitchL61

If it is absolute proof you're looking for, you will not find it.

That's no shocker.

Our Heavenly Father has purposely not given us proof of His existence so as to not interfere with our free agency. By proving to us that He exist, He would defeat His own plan to allow us to choose for ourselves. There has to be an element of faith involved, that way God knows we chose Him because of desire and faith, not because we were compelled to.

But like I posted on the first page, there are 21 other religions or branches of religion that have over half a million members. How can people who don't even hear about a Bible in their life have the option to choose correctly for themselves if they have their own religious text?

reply to post by TupacShakur

How can people who don't even hear about a Bible in their life have the option to choose correctly for themselves if they have their own religious text?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believes that all people will eventually have the opportunity to receive the fullness of the gospel, whether in this life or the next. We also believe that children who die before the age of 8 (age of accountabilty) will automatically receive a degree of glory. The church is actively performing baptisms and other ordinances on behalf of the deceased in order to give those who have passed on an opportunity to accept or deny these ordinances. God is just. We will all be held accountable and judged according to the lives we've led and the information we've been given. "To whom much is given, much is required"

reply to post by MitchL61


By the way you tell of your beliefs, it seem as though you often don't distinguish between what is fact and what is faith.

Do you distinguish between truths and faith, but write as if your beliefs are facts, or do you simply not have a distinction? If not, do you think receptors, that would make others interpret their beliefs as faith, aren't firing in your brain? I'm not saying you have a faulty brain so if it comes across like that, forgive me.

I think what is happening is that your mind has accepted faiths, about god, as truths, and because of that, the receptors that make you distinguish between faiths and facts, about god, do not fire.

What I'm trying to ask is do you knowingly claim faith based beliefs as a facts? Do you make that distinction?

reply to post by MitchL61

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believes that all people will eventually have the opportunity to receive the fullness of the gospel, whether in this life or the next.

In this life, no, millions of people will definitely not hear a word of it in their entire life.

What do you mean in the next life? Are you talking about reincarnation? If you worship another God and are a part of another religion, don't you go to hell? Will they have a chance to brush up on their gospel while they are burning in hell?

We also believe that children who die before the age of 8 (age of accountabilty) will automatically receive a degree of glory.

What about mentally retarded people who are not intelligent enough to comprehend what the Bible, religion, or God is, do they also get a Get-Into-Heaven-Free Pass?

We will all be held accountable and judged according to the lives we've led and the information we've been given. "To whom much is given, much is required"

So if we've acquired so much information that we've realized religions are illogical and that it's unfair to choose one religion over the other ones, will he judge us fairly?

reply to post by Bleeeeep

By the way you tell of your beliefs, it seem as though you often don't distinguish between what is fact and what is faith.

I'm sorry, you are right. I hope my statements do not come across as arrogance. I do believe these things with all my heart, and I have a personal testimony that many of these things are indeed, true. As a result, I may have a tendency to express some of my beliefs as facts, because in my mind, they are. But I went back over and read some of my replies, and I probably could have worded them a little differently. Please forgive me, I did not mean to come across as a "know-it-all".

reply to post by TupacShakur

What about mentally retarded people who are not intelligent enough to comprehend what the Bible, religion, or God is, do they also get a Get-Into-Heaven-Free Pass?

Yes

reply to post by MitchL61


I see. I was wrong in my assessment about you then, sorry. You do indeed make a distinction between faith and fact. Now we just need to work on some of the others, atheist and theist alike, who don't make the distinction of faith and fact.

reply to post by TupacShakur

What do you mean in the next life? Are you talking about reincarnation? If you worship another God and are a part of another religion, don't you go to hell? Will they have a chance to brush up on their gospel while they are burning in hell?

I'm referring to the after-life, not re-incarnation. If you do worship any other God besides the true God, yes you will go to hell. I believe when we die, we are not immediately consigned to our eternal fate, that will not happen until judgement day. But, one will have time to repent in the after-life prior to judgement.

reply to post by TupacShakur


I'm fond of the apocalypse of peter rather than of john. peter's version implies that all who go to hell serve their punishment and are then allowed into heaven.

Originally posted by MitchL61

You contradict yourself in these two sentences. You give examples of when He has given evidence, and then ask why can't He give us evidence.

Because, he had open communications with us in the past. That's either a story or true. If it's true, then he had no problem revealing himself without breaking "free agency" before, meaning he shouldn't now. If it's a story, it's obvious why he isn't showing up anymore.

Originally posted by MitchL61
He has given us more than enough evidence of His existence. To me, the very earth, moon, planets, and universe, with their perfect motion, and all the creations testify of a supreme creator.

we've got a giant universe, where .005% of it it can sustain life. That's thousands of "Goldilocks Zones", just withing the visible universe. Even more beyond what we can see.

If you provide an explanation more something, that doesn't mean the explanation is automatically true. With all the other gods who could of created the universe too, you could use that arguement in favor of them. Or you could stick with scientific understanding, and not making drastic assumptions. Because that is not evidence.

Also, lets say, on all the thousands of threads, with the even more number of pages on the threads, and the even higher number of posts on all the pages. Lets say there's one pixel that stands out, hidden in the millions of posts in ATS. A single pixel. What you're claiming is the same as if I said all of ATS was made for that pixel.

Compared to the universe, we're even smaller than a pixel, and it's bigger around us than we'll ever see. That doesn't testify a Supreme Creator, that testifies that it isn't all for us.

Originally posted by MitchL61
Think about this for a moment: Christ was not rich, He was not a king, a ruler, He was not exceptionally beautiful, and yet He lived a life so meaningful and impressive that we measure our years by His birth. BC and AD. Too many people underestimate the importance of Christ's life and His mission.

BCE - Before Common Era
CE - Common Era

Just because the early churches hijacked our calender system means nothing. They hijacked everything they could for control. I mean, seriously, Jesus wasn't even born at 0, unlike most people think. going by the bible's timeline and historical knowledge, he was born at 2 CE. Or 2 AD if you will.

Anyways, there's so much discrepancy over Jesus's life. The majority of the story was likely fabricated, with possible roots of an actual preacher, but nothing like the actual story.

The Jesus story isn't modern proof at all.

And again, if they got that much proof in the past, and they didn't listen, why can't we be given about that much proof now?

Originally posted by MitchL61
God is perfect. If He is perfect, then He must possess certain attributes. Among them are merciful and just. How can God be both merciful and just? Through His Son, Jesus Christ. We are all sinners, and therefore a punishment is assigned for our transgressions. This punishment must be applied in order for the demands of justice to be met. But those who are willing to recognize Christ for who He truly is, The Son of God, and be baptized in His name, and keep His commandments, can receive forgiveness through the merits of Christ's atonement, and God's grace, That is the only way that mercy can be given and the demands of justice satisfied.

God is neither merciful nor just. All you have to do is read the Old Testimate to know that.

And it's not justice to punish people who didn't know any better(because he intentionally didn't let them know better), and let the lucky ones gain forgiveness. That's quite the opposite of justice.

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx

And it's not justice to punish people who didn't know any better(because he intentionally didn't let them know better), and let the lucky ones gain forgiveness. That's quite the opposite of justice.

I appreciate your intelligent replies. You've given responses to specific statements, and done so without being offensive. That is what this forum is all about. I do not get upset when someone disagrees with me, so long as they are civil about it, and you have been. I'm going to refer back to my original post, "It all boils down to faith", It appears to me that I will not be able to convince you of the things I believe, and you will not convince me that what you believe is true. I am not asking anyone to take my word for it. If you read my responses, I am suggesting that one humbles him/herself and ask God what is true. That is what I did, and I received an answer. I believe the fulness of the gospel has been restored to the earth in these latter-days so that we can prepare to usher in the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx


You wrote:

["And it's not justice to punish people who didn't know any better(because he intentionally didn't let them know better), and let the lucky ones gain forgiveness. That's quite the opposite of justice."]

From a rational position, I can ofcourse only agree with you. And when that is said, still another step can be taken in the direction of 'boiling things down'. The invasive factions of abrahamic religion is not only about 'faith' per se. It's about faith in absolute, self-proclaimed authority.

And it doesn't matter if the perspective on the situation is one of some christianities (et al) as systems of social engineering, a para-normal demon 'god'-pretender or from a trans-cosmic perspective.


Self-proclaimed 'authority' saturates such theism from the start to the end.

reply to post by MitchL61


A agree that civil debate is the right way to go about it. I hate when things turn into a hate fest just because people have different ideas.

We can leave it at our differences here if you wish.

I will add though, I have tried numerous times to 'humble myself' to god and receive an answer. No answers been given ever though, and I can say honestly that god would have known I would've been receptive to any proof he'd give me, yet he didn't. So that doesn't work for everybody.

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx

I will add though, I have tried numerous times to 'humble myself' to god and receive an answer. No answers been given ever though, and I can say honestly that god would have known I would've been receptive to any proof he'd give me, yet he didn't. So that doesn't work for everybody.

Please do not give up seeking for answers. I'm sure you come to this site because you are seeking greater light and knowledge. I commend you for that. I do not pretend to know all of God's purposes and reasoning for why He works the way He does, and I admit that there are certain things that I take just on blind faith. I think maybe one of the reasons He does not always answer those who seek answers is because by doing so, you would be under a greater obligation to serve Him. And in His infinite wisdom, He knows one would come under greater condemnation if He were to reveal answers to them and then they still didn't repent and serve Him. God loves all His children, and desires nothing more than to share all His knowledge with us, but He knows we must be ready and prepared to act on it when we do. A father my be excited to have his son start driving, but he doesn't throw him the keys to the car when he's 12 yrs old, he waits until he is ready for the responsibility.

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx


BRAVO BRAVO BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx

Originally posted by MitchL61

You contradict yourself in these two sentences. You give examples of when He has given evidence, and then ask why can't He give us evidence.

Because, he had open communications with us in the past. That's either a story or true. If it's true, then he had no problem revealing himself without breaking "free agency" before, meaning he shouldn't now. If it's a story, it's obvious why he isn't showing up anymore.

Originally posted by MitchL61
He has given us more than enough evidence of His existence. To me, the very earth, moon, planets, and universe, with their perfect motion, and all the creations testify of a supreme creator.

we've got a giant universe, where .005% of it it can sustain life. That's thousands of "Goldilocks Zones", just withing the visible universe. Even more beyond what we can see.

If you provide an explanation more something, that doesn't mean the explanation is automatically true. With all the other gods who could of created the universe too, you could use that arguement in favor of them. Or you could stick with scientific understanding, and not making drastic assumptions. Because that is not evidence.

Also, lets say, on all the thousands of threads, with the even more number of pages on the threads, and the even higher number of posts on all the pages. Lets say there's one pixel that stands out, hidden in the millions of posts in ATS. A single pixel. What you're claiming is the same as if I said all of ATS was made for that pixel.

Compared to the universe, we're even smaller than a pixel, and it's bigger around us than we'll ever see. That doesn't testify a Supreme Creator, that testifies that it isn't all for us.

Originally posted by MitchL61
Think about this for a moment: Christ was not rich, He was not a king, a ruler, He was not exceptionally beautiful, and yet He lived a life so meaningful and impressive that we measure our years by His birth. BC and AD. Too many people underestimate the importance of Christ's life and His mission.

BCE - Before Common Era
CE - Common Era

Just because the early churches hijacked our calender system means nothing. They hijacked everything they could for control. I mean, seriously, Jesus wasn't even born at 0, unlike most people think. going by the bible's timeline and historical knowledge, he was born at 2 CE. Or 2 AD if you will.

Anyways, there's so much discrepancy over Jesus's life. The majority of the story was likely fabricated, with possible roots of an actual preacher, but nothing like the actual story.

The Jesus story isn't modern proof at all.

And again, if they got that much proof in the past, and they didn't listen, why can't we be given about that much proof now?

Originally posted by MitchL61
God is perfect. If He is perfect, then He must possess certain attributes. Among them are merciful and just. How can God be both merciful and just? Through His Son, Jesus Christ. We are all sinners, and therefore a punishment is assigned for our transgressions. This punishment must be applied in order for the demands of justice to be met. But those who are willing to recognize Christ for who He truly is, The Son of God, and be baptized in His name, and keep His commandments, can receive forgiveness through the merits of Christ's atonement, and God's grace, That is the only way that mercy can be given and the demands of justice satisfied.

God is neither merciful nor just. All you have to do is read the Old Testimate to know that.

And it's not justice to punish people who didn't know any better(because he intentionally didn't let them know better), and let the lucky ones gain forgiveness. That's quite the opposite of justice.

BRAVO BRAVO BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply to post by MitchL61

I'm referring to the after-life, not re-incarnation. If you do worship any other God besides the true God, yes you will go to hell.

You don't find that unfair? You push the idea that your God is fair and just, yet when it comes to belief, if a person chooses any other God they are punished by being tortured and burning in hell for eternity. How is that fair?

People born in other countries who are raised in a deeply religious family will grow up worshipping their God and believing that he is the true God. If they never even hear about the Bible in their life or don't even read a page of it, how is it fair that God sends them to a land of fire and pain because they were born in the wrong country? A geographically-biased God is nowhere near "fair" and "just".

I believe when we die, we are not immediately consigned to our eternal fate, that will not happen until judgement day. But, one will have time to repent in the after-life prior to judgement.

...So people don't go to hell until judgement day? That means that there is currently nobody in hell, correct?

Where are those people who are destined to go to hell at right now? Are they chilling in limbo, sitting on chairs in a land of nothingness being handed Bibles, and just waiting until judgement day?

Or is the judgement day that you refer to the time that you get called into Gods office, sort of like sitting in the waiting room of a Doctors office and then being called in after waiting for your examination?

reply to post by Bleeeeep

I'm fond of the apocalypse of peter rather than of john. peter's version implies that all who go to hell serve their punishment and are then allowed into heaven.

Ah, a happy ending, much like most fairy tales have.

This is a much better alternative though. However in this scenario I think there are some that should stay in hell forever. For example, sociopathical serial killers who think of nothing but killing and hurting others and show absolutely no remorse for their actions. Allowing them into heaven after being tortured for a while or doing community service or something seems like it would cause some problems.

reply to post by TupacShakur

...So people don't go to hell until judgement day? That means that there is currently nobody in hell, correct? Where are those people who are destined to go to hell at right now? Are they chilling in limbo, sitting on chairs in a land of nothingness being handed Bibles, and just waiting until judgement day? Or is the judgement day that you refer to the time that you get called into Gods office, sort of like sitting in the waiting room of a Doctors office and then being called in after waiting for your examination?

I believe they go to the spirit world, where missionary work can continue until judgement day. It is harder to repent in the spirit world because one is without their physical body, and many of the our transgressions are related to physical sin, i.e. adultery, and substance abuse.

reply to post by TupacShakur

You don't find that unfair? You push the idea that your God is fair and just, yet when it comes to belief, if a person chooses any other God they are punished by being tortured and burning in hell for eternity. How is that fair? People born in other countries who are raised in a deeply religious family will grow up worshipping their God and believing that he is the true God. If they never even hear about the Bible in their life or don't even read a page of it, how is it fair that God sends them to a land of fire and pain because they were born in the wrong country? A geographically-biased God is nowhere near "fair" and "just".

Those that will be consigned to endless torment in the lake of fire, or cast into outer darkness, are the truly wicked. Those that have rejected the gospel after they have received a witness of it, and turned totally away from it. I believe all people will eventually have an opportunity to receive the fulness of the gospel. Those who have lived righteously will receive a degree of glory, but will be damned. (unable to progress) Only those who have had faith in Jesus Christ, been baptized in His name, received the Holy Ghost, been married and sealed for time and all eternity in His holy temple will receive all that the Father has. By this I mean that Heavenly Father wants His children to have all that He has, continue to grow and progress until we receive a fulness of the Father's glory. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints currently has missionaries in every country, as well as doing temple work for the deceased who have passed without hearing the gospel or having the important ordinances performed. This work is being done for all deceased, not just those who died in America.