Why have we not seen disclosure? This is possibly a big reason...

Originally posted by Ex_CT2
A good place to start is with Stanton Friedman's review of this book. Hint: He's not a fan.

Stanton Friedman? Why him? He never made it in Nuclear Physics and went into UFOlogy instead and he claims Roswell was aliens also Why is he any different?

There is really no proof to back up his claims in complete honesty. That goes for anyone's claims of UFO information or sightings. I have yet to see definitive proof yet because it hasn't been announced and made public knowledge. We have only speculation and claims. Some of these claims come from highly credible people, but the highly credible people who have abused their positions to gain attention have nearly ruined it for those being so completely honest, directly to the public...yet the public refuses to believe due to a circle of bad decision makers. This is where we, as humans, have every right to believe a specific person. It is our choice.

We make these decisions on a daily basis. This particular gentleman I have given..."the benefit of the doubt". If he happens to be lying, that won't ruin my opinion of future...story tellers, so to speak, until they're proven otherwise!

There may be embellishment going on in his stories...but I am sure there is some truth behind it.

We see it in movies every day. TV shows, commercials. Hell, even some of the news we see now days has some truth in it, but truth is so obscure, it's really impossible to know for certainty unless you PROVE it to yourself!

We can't. We simply choose to believe it based on the feeling we get watching it and/or reading it. Intuition may have something to do with it also...I guess.

Originally posted by yeahright
reply to post by Ex_CT2

 

The whole field is fraught with the same cast of characters who have been lobbing potshots at each other for decades. You might notice, Boylan is in the Hall of Shame on the ufowatchdog site, so what conclusion you can draw from Boylan listing Corso as a good guy is shaky.

All these guys have their own lists. I've seen enough of the famous and infamous and their various supporters and detractors march through here to not put a lot of stock in the drama. It gets way too personal, way too fast. It's becoming an exceedingly rare ability to be able to disagree without someone taking serious personal umbrage. And some of that is due to the disagreement stepping over the line. No one can be mistaken any more. They have to be nuts, or agenda laden according to the "other side".

i wonder what could be accomplished if we could suppress the petty squabbles and do an honest, agenda free and credit neutral, search for the truth? As has been said, "It's remarkable what can be accomplished when no one cares who gets the credit".

Like we'll ever know.

You make a good point about Boylan and Corso; and I agree. After having found that Corso was not in the UFO Watchdog Hall of Shame (as I expected), I simply wanted to find a list that he was on--even though I don't agree with that list.

But here's how it shakes out for me: There's little disagreement within Ufology that Friedman is one of the Good Guys. I've followed him for years. He's a hard worker and a diligent researcher, and I've never seen him try to pass off anything less than thoroughly, rigorously checked information. He's trying to sell books--but who isn't--and he's a regular on the circuit. He's a master debater, and he calls out those who are dishonest and less-than-rigorous in no uncertain terms. All that puts him at the top of my list.

And thus, any Good Guys on his list are on my list, and any Bad Guys likewise. Similarly, those who end up on any list that he's on I tend to give the benefit of the doubt.

At the same time, there's no substitute for doing one's own research--and that's all I'm suggesting to anyone. I've seen far, far too many people here who regurgitate the most horrendous garbage as solid fact, as if they knew exactly who's who and what's what in the UFO and Alien world--just because they're followed some popular author or group who's pulled an entire mythology out of their ***.

So nobody listen to me. Do your own research. But for god's sake--DO THE RESEARCH!

nice video, i like it!

We see it in movies every day. TV shows, commercials. Hell, even some of the news we see now days has some truth in it, but truth is so obscure, it's really impossible to know for certainty unless you PROVE it to yourself! We can't. We simply choose to believe it based on the feeling we get watching it and/or reading it. Intuition may have something to do with it also...I guess.

I agree man. People out there always want YOU to convince them..... just isn't going to work that way until pandoras box is opened.

Anyone a little interested in UFOs has probably read the OPs story already ..... and to be honest ...it's just like all the other UFO/Alien stories we hear about that seem so Fantastical that they can't be true....but deep down some of us know there is truth to some of this.

@Zorgon..... lol man you are doggin on Stanton for not making it in Nuclear Physics ....lol ....that's a little harsh... perhaps he just followed what truly inspired and intrigued him... which is UFOs.

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Ex_CT2
A good place to start is with Stanton Friedman's review of this book. Hint: He's not a fan.

Stanton Friedman? Why him? He never made it in Nuclear Physics

What does that mean?

Originally posted by dplum517
@Zorgon..... lol man you are doggin on Stanton for not making it in Nuclear Physics ....lol ....that's a little harsh... perhaps he just followed what truly inspired and intrigued him... which is UFOs.

Is it really? On his own website biography he lists many companies he worked for for a short time and all the projects were canceled. He then went into UFOlogy to lecture and sell books... must have made a good buck.... but his real claim to fame seems to be bashing Bob Lazar at every chance. Even today his front page has this;

Last Update: Saturday, July 16, 2011 (EVENTS SECTION)

* The Bob Lazar Fraud
www.stantonfriedman.com...

Bob has been gone for years. No one would have heard of Area 51 if it wasn't for Bob. Doesn't matter whether you believe his story... he told it and left the field over 20 years ago. Stanton seems to feel that only his version is the truth, that everyone else is wrong or a fraud. Seems a common trait amongst whistle blowers these days.

I talked to Ed Fouche(TR3-B) who told me Stanton supports him that the TR3B was made by us... yet in the recent interview on ATS Stanton says it was alien made. Ed was quite surprised at this turn...

Stanton says "some UFO's are Alien" and that Roswell was real... but in the end he has no more proof than anyone else does. I am not sure why whistle blowers feel the need to attack each other. It seems counter productive to getting at any truth. If they were all on the same page, then skeptics would be hard pressed to debunk things, but as long as their stories conflict with each other we will get nowhere... and UFOlogy will remain a joke

Clifford Stone was for a long time an ATS Poster Boy with his collection of FOIA docuents? What happened to him? I never found out why he fell out of grace. John Lear... many came to ATS because he was here...

Today one is the current favor, the next he is out the door...

Bill Cooper thread to destroy him...
Bill Cooper Destroyed by Don Ecker
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Stanton Friedman on Philip Corso
www.stantonfriedman.com...

Stanton Friedman: Zeti-Reticuli System, Corso, UFO CoverUp Live
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Jose Escamilla came to ATS... got himself banned
Martyn Stubbs aka Secretnasaman... also gone to the axe

Steven Greer... well a hundred threads against him here
Project Camelot had a great start... then they too went into meltdown

Bob Dean a great story... then he started adding known fakes to his lectures
Dr Lier... now supports the Jerusalem video and claims he was on the scene for the Turkey UFO videos

So who is left to believe? Are any of the stories real? Maybe that is why the government doesn't silence them.



THIS is why we haven't seen disclosure... no one can get together on what that disclosure is

The disclosure in MY opinion would be that we are in fact, at a war with aliens. They say the truth is so shocking, no one really has a clue. We think there's benevolent alien beings all around us, when most of them are completely apathetic to us, or are doing pure information gathering. Not in the sense of how we function as a society but how we are made up genetically and how our brains and bodies work.

My belief on the subject is that this is most likely true. This is one really, really, good reason that disclosure is being avoided.

One Roswell crash sparked our leap in technology and to where it is now. A single crash.

Our government now has the capability to shoot these craft down. They know this. Yet they still linger around our planet, coming down and plucking information, against what we want as people but our government as well (this is one I believe everyone agrees on).

The funniest part is, these aliens don't appear to be as intelligent as we thought, in a way of common sense. They fly these craft over our planet, knowing they can be shot down. We take their technology, reverse engineer it, and improve upon it. This process is taking much longer and much more money than they ever expected (they being our government, the skunk works etc) but we have a long time to catch up in understanding this technology.


I'm nearly to the point that yeah, if I see them land now...it's shoot first and ask questions later. From a majority of the descriptions these beings ARE apathetic to us. In a way, they don't show emotions physically, they can project them on you mentally. In the end, I don't believe they are hostile, but they're like ant drones, out for a singular purpose. Collecting information.

I'll close by saying that our God, our creators creator, has an insatiable thirst for knowledge. I really wonder who...or what, that is. I can say though, that I am extremely intrigued.

reply to post by zorgon

On his own website biography he lists many companies he worked for for a short time and all the projects were canceled

Well, lets not make him out to be responsible for those projects being cancelled. Those type of projects are most likely cancelled all the time and there is an entire team of Scientists that were on the project.

Stanton seems to feel that only his version is the truth, that everyone else is wrong or a fraud. Seems a common trait amongst whistle blowers these days.

I agree, this is a problem. Stanton seems to accentuate his "I am right" attitude because he was trained as a hardcore scientist and even though he's in Ufology he still has that Scientist attitude.

Stanton says "some UFO's are Alien" and that Roswell was real... but in the end he has no more proof than anyone else does. I am not sure why whistle blowers feel the need to attack each other. It seems counter productive to getting at any truth.

You're right....but like others Stanton has spent an enormous amount of time looking at Govt documents through FOIA. He has spent years going through various alphabet agencies trying to get documents and hopefully being a thorn in their side.
So I think his sense of Roswell being "real" comes from all of his personal research. Which I tend to agree with.

Also.... even though he is critical of the OPs book and author.... He still agrees with a lot of what he has said.

Unfortunately, I find the book most unsatisfactory even though it includes many claims with which I agree.

That's him just being his stubborn critical self.

So who is left to believe? Are any of the stories real? Maybe that is why the government doesn't silence them.

In the end... I agree with you man. I, like you and others am a very skeptical person. I don't necessarily "believe" all of these people.... I listen to all of them to hear what they have to say... whether it be ...Leir.. Greer... Cooper ...Lazar .... folks in Camelot.....
And from there I just absorb the info with a healthy dose of skepticism.

THIS is why we haven't seen disclosure... no one can get together on what that disclosure is

Well hopefully we can at least agree that "disclosure" will come from a Government body or the Aliens themselves.


P.S. I still think the Jerusalem video is 50/50. There is no comparison to other fakes. IMO that's how good it was. When it originally happened .....videos 1, 2, & 4 were amazing pieces of work......they put any other hoax to shame.... and if it is a hoax.... the true people behind it have an agenda we should want to find out.

So you think going to war with an alien species is going to consist of nothing more than firing some laser beams to shoot down a few ships and then it's over?

If you have any knowledge of warfare you should know that even the smallest scale conflicts can result in massive destruction. What your suggesting would be like us going to war with China, sending a few unmanned drones in which get shot down and China declaring winning the war because of that.

Do you not think we might fight back a little harder? Now you can quote this guys credentials and list all of our technological programs all day but your obviously missing the bigger picture of what a war would entail.

I think you are not seeing the forest through the trees. Any conflict with an alien species would not be kept a secret for very long.

Originally posted by Still Naive?
... We think there's benevolent alien beings all around us, when most of them are completely apathetic to us, or are doing pure information gathering. Not in the sense of how we function as a society but how we are made up genetically and how our brains and bodies work.

Are you sure of that? What "aliens" have you met? Or are you basing your opinion on selective evidence? Selective being those who cry the loudest, not necessarily the majority of experiencers?

Our government now has the capability to shoot these craft down. They know this. Yet they still linger around our planet, coming down and plucking information, against what we want as people but our government as well (this is one I believe everyone agrees on).

Hmmm, I don't agree. If aliens are flying around our planet even though they know they could be shot down by us at any given time, wouldn't it be more likely that we are not necessarily at war? Wouldn't it make more sense that we might not have the capability to take them out of the sky or space at all? Or perhaps, we may even be in collusion with them at some level?

I'm nearly to the point that yeah, if I see them land now...it's shoot first and ask questions later. From a majority of the descriptions these beings ARE apathetic to us. In a way, they don't show emotions physically, they can project them on you mentally. In the end, I don't believe they are hostile, but they're like ant drones, out for a singular purpose. Collecting information.

Wow. You would risk potentially starting a real world war with... another world of technologically superior intelligent beings?! Has it occured to you that perhaps the craft/tech we see in our skies is basic stuff for them? That they wouldn't commit their "big guns" until the !@#$ hits the fan? And then it's on like Donkey Kong, and over in seconds?

In fact, they wouldn't commit anything "advanced" here for the sole purpose that it could be captured and reverse engineered. It's like Alexander starting a war with modern US. He sees jeeps cross the field in seconds and bullets flying everywhere and thinking this is the best we can throw at him because that's all that he's seen... what a critical mistake he would make.

Originally posted by dplum517
I agree, this is a problem. Stanton seems to accentuate his "I am right" attitude because he was trained as a hardcore scientist and even though he's in Ufology he still has that Scientist attitude.

Nothing wrong with that, but despite his scientific background, he has nothing solid to show us, just his version of the story...

You're right....but like others Stanton has spent an enormous amount of time looking at Govt documents through FOIA. He has spent years going through various alphabet agencies trying to get documents and hopefully being a thorn in their side.

So have I for over 35 years... I just didn't go on the circuit You should see my email list. I was even visited for three days of 'chat'. That visit was really interesting... as this person drove across the USA 'visiting' Pegasus members... funny thing is he was here on ATS for some time Kind of a long interesting story where it led.

I asked one of my contacts about this visit...

Your note is full of so many things that we could chat about...literally for hours. What really caught my interest was the story about the 'visitor' y'all had. I used to do similar things...get in the car...drive over half of God's Creation to 'visit' with people, scientists and some folks with special skills. Remember...for someone to be able to do that (travel, etc.)...that takes a 'budget', schedules, etc. And in order for someone to do something like that (like I used to do right after 9/11 thru early -03)...someone who has a discretionary budget generally finances those kind of 'intel' projects. Does the term 'reconoiter' mean anything to you? (LOL)! Just be careful.. They probably don't consider you guys to be a threat, or they'd have already 'bored you to death with conversation' (ROTFFL!). A futher consideration is the 'spoon-feed-effect'. No need to extrapolate on that issue/prospect.

Hey...I get a sense that you're a good man and want to share something with you. Attached is a Manuscript

That manuscript is why I am still sticking with all this... but in all those years and all those contacts, it points more to black ops projects then full out alien visitation. I have talked to people as high as the pentagon and get great info on military stuff I can trace and verify... but I only get stories about the visitors. These stories are great, these people are not in the UFO circuit... but still they are stories.

I don't have a photo of an Alien, or a verifiable saucer after all these years. But I have some great shots of other stuff

So I think his sense of Roswell being "real" comes from all of his personal research. Which I tend to agree with.

I too get a sense that it is real... but I lean to its one of ours and the Aliens was the cover story

A bunch of years ago I read something written by Herman Oberth... in that he talked of 'electric spaceships NOT of ionic propulsion" Okay we now have ion engines Deep Space 1 used one, but this was 1939...

Today because of another thread I searched again and found it online. The book was "Possibilities of Space Flight." Published in 1939. Oberth was von Braun's mentor...

Here is a very interesting statement by von Braun...

""Professor Oberth has been right with so many of his early proposals," von Braun told Stuhlinger in 1947, "I wouldn't be a bit surprised if we flew to Mars electrically."

Stuhlinger immersed himself in electric propulsion theory. He found a copy of Oberth's book, "Possibilities of Space Flight." Published in 1939, Oberth devoted a chapter to the various problems of electric propulsion systems, envisioning one design that might carry a 150-ton payload. In studying the origins of interest in electric propulsion, Stuhlinger learned that the American rocket pioneer, Dr. Robert Goddard, had examined the subject as early as 1906. Goddard had mentioned the possibility of accelerating electrically charged particles to very high velocities without the need for high temperatures.

Studies in electric propulsion became more frequent following WWII, and in 1955 Stuhlinger presented a paper at the International Astronautical Congress in Vienna entitled, "Possibilities of Electrical Space Ship Propulsion." During his presentation, Stuhlinger discussed a proposal made by von Braun two years earlier, to use chemical propulsion to send a spaceship to Mars.

science.nasa.gov...

So the more I look, the more I find that we have stuff way ahead of where they tell us we are... Electric spaceships and ion engines already looked at by those German scientists that were about to become part of the NAZI war machine.

In the end... I agree with you man. I, like you and others am a very skeptical person. I don't necessarily "believe" all of these people.... I listen to all of them to hear what they have to say... whether it be ...Leir.. Greer... Cooper ...Lazar .... folks in Camelot.....
And from there I just absorb the info with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Well I am a little different. I listen to the stories... and I KNOW that they add 'embelishments' for the audience... John Lear is an expert at that. What I do is I look for the clues and follow them. If its BS, I soon run into dead ends, if it has merit, I usually end up at some dot mil site and get a file.

Satnton may be a nice guy... I never met him. But until he has a piece of alien metal to show me, he is just another story teller

Well hopefully we can at least agree that "disclosure" will come from a Government body or the Aliens themselves.

Most likely the latter

P.S. I still think the Jerusalem video is 50/50. There is no comparison to other fakes. IMO that's how good it was.

I thought it was good at first too... but the fact that it happened where it did and no alarms went off when Israel is in a heightened state of alert, the fact that no other person on the street noticed it (it did hang around for some time lighting up the area, and the fact that the video makers were a group of Israeli film students... that kinda says it all to me... before the ATS debunking team took over

If all these whistle blowers had decided to get together and get their stories straight, the debunkers wouldn't have stood a chance... but calling each other frauds and selling books... kinda destroys UFOlogy. I miss the days when the likes of Jacque Vallee were the spearhead... ah the good old days

Originally posted by Still Naive?

Why have we not seen disclosure?

Perhaps because there is nothing to disclose in regards to UFO's and aliens....

reply to post by Still Naive?


"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Why should anyone have to "debunk" something that has no evidence to support it?

reply to post by zorgon


Thanks for the reply and the info. I do like reading new stuff. Sounds like you have some age and experience on me which I respect and take into account.

It does sound like other forms of propulsion could account for a lot of UFO sightings especially if those propulsion methods make no sound.

But.... I can't help but think that those forms of propulsion don't exhibit some of the traits of classic UFO sightings that seem to involve the manipulation of gravity.

That manuscript is why I am still sticking with all this... but in all those years and all those contacts, it points more to black ops projects then full out alien visitation. I have talked to people as high as the pentagon and get great info on military stuff I can trace and verify... but I only get stories about the visitors. These stories are great, these people are not in the UFO circuit... but still they are stories.

...Well ... I sure wish I knew what that manuscript said.