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Aliens have not contacted us, therefore theres nothing to disclose

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posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 06:00 PM
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reply to post by Welfhard
 


Please, stop skirting my questions. A graphic designer is one thing, but an artist is another. We both would have to agree these images are very artistic. Not just anyone can pull these off. I know you are being stubborn with the only purpose is to save face. But stop and think a moment. Study the image, study the detail, look at how the geometry is completed to perfection. You need to see what you are doing so don't give me "why couldn't it have been done in the dark normally?" What level of intelligence would be needed to do these? Average? You sound like a smart chap so why such a mundane lack of cognizant thinking? Its foolish. It is that ego that keeps you from asking the correct questions, and not of one who claims to be skeptic. I'm skeptic. I'm skeptic that people could do these based on what I know "we" as "people" are capable of doing.




posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by FlySolo
 


Why would people have to see in the dark? Of the cropcircles known to me man made, how many of those people had trouble making intricate designs in crop at night time? If only there was some kind of gadget that allowed someone to see in the night. Something like goggles that ... I dunno, enhanced light. Nocurnal light-up glasses? And you don't have to have a high IQ to be a graphic designer.

I mean for goodness sake, there's a company that makes cropcircles by night on commission. One was even for a british comedy quiz show.


How many times does it need to be demonstrated that it's perfectly within human ability to make cropcircles?!

But I do wonder why aliens would come interstellar distances to put graffiti in our crops. If they wanted to send a message, there are better information mediums than corn. Metal is a good one. Do you suppose aliens have no smith technology?
edit on 18-4-2011 by Welfhard because: (no reason given)


I have never said that they couldn't be done. Look at the crabwood alien. Look at the artistic ability in it and compare it with your example of a boring design done in a few hours. If you can drag those guys in and have them pull off a 3-D 500 ft shadowed image with mathematical formula's a ascii and what have you, then I will shut my pie hole. Apples and oranges my friend.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by KrypticCriminal
 


Why are the OP's assumptions taken more seriously than other peoples?


Well firstly OP's assumptions are the SAME TWO everyone else here makes, the point is they're the only two he makes. OP's, or rather mainstream sciences' hypothesis, everyone else who are saying aliens are here are making many more baseless assumptions. That hypothesis is favoured because it relies on the least number of unknown variables.



A couple of post ago you were saying he was right. Then you downgraded this to saying he has a hypothesis. which has'nt been tested and cant be proven to be correct.


It's as right as you can get. People say lack of evidence is not evidence of absence, but I disagree. It is evidence of absence, just not conclusive proof. It's the best guess we have and the most conservative.



All your arguments so far are from the possition that science cant be wrong.


EXCUSE ME?! In the very post you just quoted, I did say:


I don't think it's impossible that the standard scientific view is wrong, but I recognise that it's all we've got to go on and there's no evidence anything else, ie. alien visitation, is the case.


So it would be nice if you stopped putting words in my mouth.
edit on 18-4-2011 by Welfhard because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 06:12 PM
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Originally posted by coolottie
reply to post by andre18
 

Here are 5 NASA Astronauts that say you are wrong. Now how do you think I am going to believe. Not you.

*New* Released Documentary for Disclosure.




Great start to an alien disclosure movie by showing known hoaxes at the beginning of the movie..
That Musain ( or however you spell it) is a complete joke.

I wouldn't expect anything less from you...since you claim to be an abductee and to have also worked for the government in was co working with aliens...



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 06:14 PM
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First aliens have helped us build great works of art but leave no proof of them ever being here..now they come billions of miles away to play in our fields...
...
This thread just get better and better.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 06:16 PM
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reply to post by FlySolo
 


Please, stop skirting my questions. A graphic designer is one thing, but an artist is another. We both would have to agree these images are very artistic. Not just anyone can pull these off.


Are you telling me it's impossible that people did these?



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by KrypticCriminal
 


Why are the OP's assumptions taken more seriously than other peoples?


Well firstly OP's assumptions are the SAME TWO everyone else here makes, the point is they're the only two he makes. OP's, or rather mainstream sciences' hypothesis, everyone else who are saying aliens are here are making many more baseless assumptions. That hypothesis is favoured because it relies on the least number of unknown variables.



A couple of post ago you were saying he was right. Then you downgraded this to saying he has a hypothesis. which has'nt been tested and cant be proven to be correct.


It's as right as you can get. People say lack of evidence is not evidence of absence, but I disagree. It is evidence of absence, just not conclusive proof. It's the best guess we have and the most conservative.


Right as you can get is'nt "right". To say its the best guess we have and then claim its right is a contradiction in terms. It would only be a right guess if it was proven to be true which non of the OP has been yet.

So what is it?
right or an educated guess?

Like i've said before there been plenty of other educated guesses made on this thread yet you dont consider these to be in anyway possible. Simply because they cant be proven.

You see my point.

Your hanging yourself with your own logic.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by Welfhard
Well firstly OP's assumptions are the SAME TWO everyone else here makes, the point is they're the only two he makes. OP's, or rather mainstream sciences' hypothesis, everyone else who are saying aliens are here are making many more baseless assumptions. That hypothesis is favoured because it relies on the least number of unknown variables.


you keep saying that everyone else who says aliens are here are making "baseless assumptions" .. but you're the only one who is saying they're baseless because you do not have the information or knowledge. it does not mean those people do not have anything to base on for their assumptions. basically, it's baseless to YOU but not to them. you base everything on what you know and reject what everyone else knows to be false.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 06:34 PM
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reply to post by KrypticCriminal
 


Ok. Fair enough. I don't think that OP is necessarily right, it's not something we can know.

But it's not an educated guess, it's the educated guess. The other guesses you refer to in this thread don't measure up because they make all sorts of baseless assumptions. For example:
There are ET civs in ear shot of the solar system,
ETs have transluminal travel
That communicating in crop circles makes more sense than communicating via books, megaliths or face to face conversation -OR- ETs come here to carve artistic graffiti into our crops,
that ets are here to bag and tag humans,
etc.



Occam's Razor plays favourites. We can't know incontrovertibly who's right, but we can say, based on how rational they are, whose positions are more likely.
edit on 18-4-2011 by Welfhard because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 06:46 PM
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reply to post by yic17
 

I appreciate your view but I disagree that "baseless" is a subjective term. Something is either baseless or it isn't. For example. Someone sees a light in the sky moving in mysterious ways over a city. A baseless assumption is that because it might not look natural means it must be alien. It's the same logic that lead people to think rain was magic or lightning bolts were sent from atop Mount Olympus by Zeus himself.

Thinking an abduction experiences means you must have been abducted by aliens and not hallucinating is a baseless assumption.
Thinking that its impossible that humans couldn't create all of the crop circles, is also such.

As far as I or any of the leading scientists at NASA, SETI etc. can figure, the only assumptions that aren't baseless for sure is that life most certainly exist elsewhere and that by sheer numbers of galaxies, stars and planets, intelligent life must also exist is.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 06:59 PM
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Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by KrypticCriminal
 


Ok. Fair enough. I don't think that OP is necessarily right, it's not something we can know.

But it's not an educated guess, it's the educated guess. The other guesses you refer to in this thread don't measure up because they make all sorts of baseless assumptions. For example:
There are ET civs in ear shot of the solar system,
ETs have transluminal travel
That communicating in crop circles makes more sense than communicating via books, megaliths or face to face conversation -OR- ETs come here to carve artistic graffiti into our crops,
that ets are here to bag and tag humans,
etc.



Occam's Razor plays favourites. We can't know incontrovertibly who's right, but we can say, based on how rational they are, whose positions are more likely.
edit on 18-4-2011 by Welfhard because: (no reason given)


I get what your saying. I dont think any of the theorys i personaly put forward are predicated on baseless asumptions. As for other peoples, its up to them to defend those. Ive made my points. The OP can consider or completely reject them. I dont really care which.

Nice talking with you.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 07:01 PM
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reply to post by Welfhard
 


Given the time frame and complexities. Yes. There is a whole other element to these other than just what meets the eye. But if you had watched the video, you would know this.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 07:13 PM
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Hello, andre18,

In my second reply, may I suggest that you start acting less a skeptic, and more like a UFO hunter.

To be a sucessful UFO hunter: You have to think why the these space alien entitie's would have any reason for coming to visit our Earth and which places they would like to visit?

I imagine that as long as these EBE's have not lost their appetite for sex, that these space alien arrivals could possibly be squishy.

Do you remember, any of the old I Love Lucy shows on TV? Especially the one where Lucy and her husband, Ricardo, go on a vacation out west, with their automobile, towing one of them airframe campers.

Lucy start's collecting a boulder from every western state, then she stores them in the camper. Let me tell ya, this is one you gotta see.

So, I just theorize, that the ET's would at least have the same wanting's like Lucy, and that they would want to do alittle collecting for themselve's, so their possible trillion mile voyage would have not been in vain.

Just sayin, "it's a very simple game,"

Erno86


edit on 18-4-2011 by Erno86 because: added a few words



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by KrypticCriminal

They could have been here a lot longer yet we did'nt have the technology to document it, and in more supersticious times, they could have easily been classed as demons or angels or gods.


The problem with the ancient astronaut theory is every one of those cave paintings are depictions of anthropomorphised human looking spirits. The cave painting are exactly the same nature as Egyptian god's that had human bodies and animal heads. They're just attributing themselves into their god's and since greys look like us, then of course you're going to make a connection that aren't there. I'm sort of confused why no one else realises that - sort of obvious.


As for what they would look like. Ive already gave you my points of view on this. You claim that aliens could'nt be the greys that people claim to have seen. yet you've got nothing but a theory to prove it. So its a pointless argument. They say yay, you say nay and so the circle goes.


Now hold on there, what i base my opinion on is the same as the scientists that are actually doing the search's for aliens including NASA. Now in the real word there's really only the space programs like the european or japanese programs and SETI who know the most likely ways to find alien life. The difference is alien abductions and ufo's are pseudoscience so i don't really think it's fair to say both our thoughts are based on the same level of reasoning and evidence and i think you know that but still enjoy the thrill of the thought that it might be true.
edit on 18-4-2011 by andre18 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by yic17
 

I appreciate your view but I disagree that "baseless" is a subjective term. Something is either baseless or it isn't. For example. Someone sees a light in the sky moving in mysterious ways over a city. A baseless assumption is that because it might not look natural means it must be alien. It's the same logic that lead people to think rain was magic or lightning bolts were sent from atop Mount Olympus by Zeus himself.

Thinking an abduction experiences means you must have been abducted by aliens and not hallucinating is a baseless assumption.
Thinking that its impossible that humans couldn't create all of the crop circles, is also such.

As far as I or any of the leading scientists at NASA, SETI etc. can figure, the only assumptions that aren't baseless for sure is that life most certainly exist elsewhere and that by sheer numbers of galaxies, stars and planets, intelligent life must also exist is.


First of all let me just give you a better idea of where I stand. I don't believe in UFOs/ETs simply because of countless videos of mysterious lights in the sky - and no I am not saying they must be UFOs from other planets. I also do not think that alien abductions cannot be hallucinations or that crop circles cannot ALL be created by humans. Now, you understand that I do not exclude any of those possibilities.

With that said, I am going to state my point. While I do not exclude the possibilities of the above you said - at the same time I do not think they are completely baseless as well. While they may not be proven by our technological science at the moment - that does not mean they cannot be true.

I mean .. it's much like in the past when everyone thought the Earth was flat. Just because that's what the majority believes - does that exclude other possibilities that maybe it's not flat? What I am saying is .. let's say 99% people believe the Earth to be flat. And then there are 1% people who say that the Earth is not flat. While the 1% people do not have science to back it up (yet), that doesn't mean it's completely baseless. Maybe these 1% people are basing on something that the current science has not yet proven - they're basing on their personal experience and combined knowledge. I mean if it's just 10 people then sure it might not be anything but when it's 1% of human population - tens of thousands of people - you have to give them SOME credit. Anyways, maybe that wasn't a very good example I don't know.

But now ... let's just apply that to today's UFO/ET topic. With hundreds and thousands of people claiming to be abducted - some even with things implanted inside of their body parts that doctors today are unable to remove.

With tens of thousands of videos on UFOs - you seriously think that there are tens of thousands of people from regular families with no video editing or acting background just all of a sudden want to create these UFO videos for fun and a little fame? Seriously? I am a graphic designer + video editor - went to a design school and even me or my friends don't go create UFO videos just for fun. And you really believe that tens and thousands of regular people just all of a sudden know how to edit videos or go hire someone to make them? I mean seriously .. there are tens of thousands of UFO videos .. even if just ONE of them was an actual craft from another planet - that's it. UFOs/ETs become REAL.

And then there are ancient alien artifacts that scientists and experts of all areas today are unable to debunk. Some of these artifacts simply cannot be made without today's technology - not just regular technology, but today's high end technology. Within the pyramids, there are parts of the blocks that are of perfect angle - meaning it can only be created with tools we have today. And then there are ancient cities with evidence of nuclear attack.

I mean really .. if you put ALL of these information together (and I only pointed out 3 of them. there are a lot more) .. you simply have to give some credit to these claims. I am not saying it's 100% true. All I am saying is that they are not so "baseless" as you may think. Seriously .. I am not trying to prove that the ETs definitely exist and have visited. But you cannot simply discredit them just because they don't pass your scientific standard.

p.s. and of course there's the recent FBI documents stating that they found 3 UFO crafts with 9 alien bodies inside during 1950 in New Mexico ...



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by andre18

Originally posted by KrypticCriminal

They could have been here a lot longer yet we did'nt have the technology to document it, and in more supersticious times, they could have easily been classed as demons or angels or gods.


The problem with the ancient astronaut theory is every one of those cave paintings are depictions of anthropomorphised human looking spirits. The cave painting are exactly the same nature as Egyptian god's that had human bodies and animal heads. They're just attributing themselves into their god's and since greys look like us, then of course you're going to make a connection that aren't there. I'm sort of confused why no one else realises that - sort of obvious.


As for what they would look like. Ive already gave you my points of view on this. You claim that aliens could'nt be the greys that people claim to have seen. yet you've got nothing but a theory to prove it. So its a pointless argument. They say yay, you say nay and so the circle goes.


Now hold on there, what i base my opinion on is the same as the scientists that are actually doing the search's for aliens including NASA. Now in the real word there's really only the space programs like the european or japanese programs and SETI who know the most likely ways to find alien life. The difference is alien abductions and ufo's are pseudoscience so i don't really think it's fair to say both our reasons are based on the same level of reasoning and evidence and i think you know that but still enjoy the thrill of the thought that it might be true.
edit on 18-4-2011 by andre18 because: (no reason given)


I agree, theres a lot about ancient alien theory that i find hard to swallow. They could have seen these things while under the influence of some kind of drug. Yet there are clear pictures of what appears to some kind of ship with figures looking out. Why would they come up with this? Then theres the similaritys between different cultures at different periods in time which had no contact with one another. Did they all have the same visions despite believing in completely different Gods?

I would never hold ancient astronaut theory up as any kind of proof, Although theres just enough in it to keep me interested. As for NASA and SETI. I would love to share your confidence that they know what there doing, what to look for and if they did ever find something. They would share it with the world. You must know that thats not how the world works. If NASA are so straight up then why do they blur out parts of images they get from the moon and Mars? Why did they stop the live feed they had going when people started to see strange things appearing? If you used some of your sceptisism and directed it at these Organisations that you put so much faith in. You might get a shock. You should never assume that what your being told is the truth. Everybody knows that the best lies are based on ellments of truth.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by yic17

I just have to respond to this ... how can you use your personal logic to think that you know that the aliens do not have their own logical motive? you know your logic does not mean their logic. just because you, one person, cannot come up with a logical motive does not mean "I" cannot come up with one (or hundreds of) logical motive or that the aliens cannot come up with a logical motive. your logic is only your own - it is ONE perspective out of the infinite perspectives of other people and beings. once you learn to change your perspective, perhaps then you will find many logical motives for them to visit us or have visited us.


I'll ask you this. Do you acknowledge that the people at SETI and NASA would now more then you and the average person about aliens? If your answer is yes, then don't you think it would be wise to inform and educate yourself around what these sort of enterprises do and know? Because that's exactly what i do. I base my opinions from what i learn from the very best in the field that would have the highest understanding of these sorts of things.

So i think it's only natural that my logical stand point would be more alertive to reason, since everyone here on ats else seems to think the efforts of NASA are against the very foundations it's actually supporting.
edit on 18-4-2011 by andre18 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by andre18

Originally posted by yic17

I just have to respond to this ... how can you use your personal logic to think that you know that the aliens do not have their own logical motive? you know your logic does not mean their logic. just because you, one person, cannot come up with a logical motive does not mean "I" cannot come up with one (or hundreds of) logical motive or that the aliens cannot come up with a logical motive. your logic is only your own - it is ONE perspective out of the infinite perspectives of other people and beings. once you learn to change your perspective, perhaps then you will find many logical motives for them to visit us or have visited us.


I'll ask you this. Do you acknowledge that the people at SETI and NASA would now more then you and the average person about aliens? If your answer is yes, then don't you think it would be wise to inform and educate yourself around what these sort of enterprises do? Because that's exactly what i do. I base my opinions from what i learn from the very best in the field that would have the highest understanding of these sorts of things.

So i think it's only natural that my logical stand point would be more alertive to reason, since everyone here on ats else seems to think the efforts of NASA are against the very foundations it's actually supporting.


Yes, I believe SOME people in SETI and NASA definitely know more than me and the average person about aliens. But that does not exclude the possibility that SETI and NASA are hiding the truth from us - or in your words - against the very foundations it's actually supporting.

There are logical reasons to believe that they are hiding the truth from us. One could be because the government does not think the average people can handle the truth. Another would be because if people know about the truth - the government may lose their power. Anyways, there are a whole bunch of logical reasons.

All I am saying is that one should not exclude other people's logical point of views just because it does not fit with your own. Or - just because you haven't thought of other logical reasons does not mean they do not exist or are not valid.

FINALLY .. why do so many people think that the efforts of NASA are against the very foundations it's actually supporting? Well .. look around .. we ARE inside of the CONSPIRACY THEORY forum!! ahahaha XD

People here believe there is a conspiracy going on!! If there isn't - then the government would either tell us straight - ETs EXIST or ETs DO NOT EXIST. But the reality is .. the mainstream government stays silent on the issue - while hundreds and even thousands of retired government officials (politicians, military personals, and scientists) claim that there IS a conspiracy, that ETs indeed exist, that the government HAS ET technology.

And you talk about NASA (authority) - even one of the astronauts Edgar Mitchell went on live TV CNN conference to say that aliens exist.
edit on 18-4-2011 by yic17 because: grammar error



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by KrypticCriminal
If NASA are so straight up then why do they blur out parts of images they get from the moon and Mars? Why did they stop the live feed they had going when people started to see strange things appearing? If you used some of your sceptisism and directed it at these Organisations that you put so much faith in. You might get a shock. You should never assume that what your being told is the truth. Everybody knows that the best lies are based on ellments of truth.


How about you show me some examples of blurred moon and mars images? Also, the whole escapade about NASA's tether footage is very well explained.

Here's a great example



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 09:05 PM
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reply to post by Welfhard
 
They do have to have a high level of education, and most are scientists. Plus why would they even talk about if publicly, when most people get nothing but ridiculed do like myself on ATS. They have been in space and saw them, some even before they went into space. I don't know of anyone here on ATS that has been in Space. They also are all under Very High Clearences, and you can be sure that even saying what they are publicly was approved by higher ups. And trust me, people have been jailed and inprisoned for talking too much. I have already put a lot of information on ATS, and some I probably shouldn't have. But all you have to do is go to my profile. And you will also see how hard somepeople tried to shut me up. Thank you for watching the video and I would wait a while before you watch anymore. There are also subliminal messages, that are intentionally not so hidden.



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