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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

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posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by Wertwog
Question for Silver or anyone.

Is it even possible for spent fuel to achieve a "prompt criticality"? It was my understanding it can catch fire and melt into a blob (the poolium sliding down the wall of #4) p681, or go critical (but promptly?). Can someone explain how a hydrogen explosion could force spent fuel to go 'promptly' critical?

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Silverlok
I think that since ATS has done much work on the subject someone here should get to name that poolium falls thing(visible in the upper left hand corner at about 1:21...any suggestions?



edit on 19-6-2011 by Wertwog because: Unicorns are sad moonbats get all the attention.


Although I freely admit to not being anything near an expert on nukes, I can state the following based on my experiences.

There are several examples of smaller detonations initiating far larger ones. Some examples:

1. Dynamite requires a "blasting cap" to detonate. This is a smaller explosion that then causes the mass of high explosives to react and explode. This is also typical of most other commercial explosives on the market.

2. Nuke explosions are a result of high explosives, exploding inward into a "core" of nuclear material, which compresses the core to cause it to explode, again at a much higher level than the high explosives.

As a matter of debate, let's assume (yeah I know) that the SFP melted and fell into a mass blob at the bottom of the SFP. So, you have an extremely tough concrete enclosure, that is only open from the top, exposed to the interior of the building.

A hydrogen explosion takes place (lower explosion). All of the concussion force from this explosion could then compact the "blob" that is surrounded on all sides in the same type of fashion that a regular nuke weapon would be compressed on all sides.

The mass reaches prompt criticallity and explodes.

I know, standing by with kevlar suit on.




posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 10:40 AM
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Originally posted by DancedWithWolves
Another nuclear plant put on ALERT. This time in Nebraska.
Anyone have a list of all the various nuclear plants popping off with some alert or transgression around the world? Not a good sign when we are trying to keep up with the "list." Safe nuclear is a lie. This latest plant is operating at full capacity. Grand. Just Grand.








20.06.2011 USA State of Nebraska Fort Calhoun Nuclear Power Plant Blair Read
10.06.2011 USA State of California San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Read
06.06.2011 Egypt Capital City Anshas Nuclear Reactor Cairo Read
31.05.2011 Japan Province of Fukushima Fukushima I. (Daiichi) Nuclear Power Plant Read
29.05.2011 Limerick Nuclear Power Plant Limerick Township Read
27.05.2011 Japan Prefecture of Fukushima Fukushima 2 (Daini) Nuclear Power Plant Naraha Read
13.05.2011 Sweden Varberg Municipality Ringhals Nuclear Power Plant Read
05.05.2011 Germany State of Bavaria Gundremmingen Nuclear Power Plant Gundremmingen Read
05.05.2011 RUS Russia [Asia] Siberia Taimyr Nucelar Icebreaker (Kara Sea) Read
04.05.2011 USA State of New York Nine Mile Nuclear Power Plant Oswego Read
03.05.2011 USA State of Mississippi Grand Gulf Nuclear Power Plant Port Gibson Read
02.05.2011 Japan Prefecture of Fukui Tsuruga Nuclear Power Plant Tsuruga Read


And thats just the last month and a half.

The link below allows you to search all nuclear 'incidents' by date range

Search Database Here



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 11:40 AM
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reply to post by mattandkat
 


Take a look on Lucas cam - Unit 4 is going wacko..."Steam"? Is a good question!!

lucaswhitefieldhixson.com...

Not good at all..and wind blowing it south...

Sigh...

- Purple Chive



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by Purplechive
reply to post by zworld
 


Our beloved French Dude, "playbacklapompe"...who can make us laugh at the irony or cry about the tragedy...

35,000 children to wear dosimeters...



- Purple Chive


All of the French Dude's Youtube videos about Fukushima have been removed!!! THIS IS SCARY!!!

Hitler?

enenews.com...

How do you contact Youtube and scream?

- Purple Chive



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 11:55 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by Purplechive
reply to post by mattandkat
 


Take a look on Lucas cam - Unit 4 is going wacko..."Steam"? Is a good question!!

lucaswhitefieldhixson.com...

Not good at all..and wind blowing it south...

Sigh...

- Purple Chive



Thats not good at all. I have never seen it do this before (maybe because I have missed it) but that CAN NOT be good.



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by matadoor

Originally posted by Wertwog
Question for Silver or anyone.

Is it even possible for spent fuel to achieve a "prompt criticality"? It was my understanding it can catch fire and melt into a blob (the poolium sliding down the wall of #4) p681, or go critical (but promptly?). Can someone explain how a hydrogen explosion could force spent fuel to go 'promptly' critical?

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Silverlok
I think that since ATS has done much work on the subject someone here should get to name that poolium falls thing(visible in the upper left hand corner at about 1:21...any suggestions?



edit on 19-6-2011 by Wertwog because: Unicorns are sad moonbats get all the attention.


Although I freely admit to not being anything near an expert on nukes, I can state the following based on my experiences.

There are several examples of smaller detonations initiating far larger ones. Some examples:

1. Dynamite requires a "blasting cap" to detonate. This is a smaller explosion that then causes the mass of high explosives to react and explode. This is also typical of most other commercial explosives on the market.

2. Nuke explosions are a result of high explosives, exploding inward into a "core" of nuclear material, which compresses the core to cause it to explode, again at a much higher level than the high explosives.

As a matter of debate, let's assume (yeah I know) that the SFP melted and fell into a mass blob at the bottom of the SFP. So, you have an extremely tough concrete enclosure, that is only open from the top, exposed to the interior of the building.

A hydrogen explosion takes place (lower explosion). All of the concussion force from this explosion could then compact the "blob" that is surrounded on all sides in the same type of fashion that a regular nuke weapon would be compressed on all sides.

The mass reaches prompt criticallity and explodes.

I know, standing by with kevlar suit on.



I wonder if we are confusing prompt as in quick or rapid with prompt as in in cause to occur? In the above examples criticality occurs promptly. But maybe we are looking for something that would prompt, or cause criticality to occur but not necessarily in a rapid fashion.

After all of TEPCO's press releases I think I am starting to look at everything and through the filter of what it would mean using the same word but with one of it's alternate definitions.



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 12:35 PM
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When we are looking at the "blob" at the bottom of the SFP, we need to (in my opinion) cease to think about this mass as a "reactor" and instead look at it as a blob of fission materials. As such, let's look at the different ways to build a nuke bomb.

From here: en.wikipedia.org...-type_weapon

Nuclear weapon designs are physical, chemical, and engineering arrangements that cause the physics package[1] of a nuclear weapon to detonate. There are three basic design types. In all three, the explosive energy of deployed devices has been derived primarily from nuclear fission, not fusion.

Pure fission weapons were the first nuclear weapons built and have so far been the only type ever used in warfare. The active material is fissile uranium (U-235) or plutonium (Pu-239), explosively assembled into a chain-reacting critical mass by one of two methods:

Gun assembly: one piece of fissile uranium is fired at a fissile uranium target at the end of the weapon, similar to firing a bullet down a gun barrel, achieving critical mass when combined.

Implosion: a fissile mass of either material (U-235, Pu-239, or a combination) is surrounded by high explosives that compress the mass, resulting in criticality.

The implosion method can use either uranium or plutonium as fuel.

Edit - what if it has both?

The gun method only uses uranium. Plutonium is considered impractical for the gun method because of early triggering due to Pu-240 contamination and due to its time constant for prompt critical fission being much shorter than that of U-235.



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by Purplechive
reply to post by mattandkat
 


Take a look on Lucas cam - Unit 4 is going wacko..."Steam"? Is a good question!!

lucaswhitefieldhixson.com...

Not good at all..and wind blowing it south...

Sigh...

- Purple Chive



Whoa, I don't know what's happening there but that much steam or smoke can't be a good thing,
I use the direct link to the fukcam, it loads much quicker.

Editing to add screenshot



And for those of you (not looking at you mrbullshow) that say it's fog, look at the huge plume spewing out of building number four.
edit on 20/6/11 by yellowbeard because: screenshot and comment added



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by yellowbeard
 


I don't think it EVER stops spewing, just that under better (or worse - depends on how you look at it) environmental conditions we are able to see the spewing better.



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 03:14 PM
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reply to post by yellowbeard
 


And the black smoke still billowing out underneath the cat walk. Still wonder what that is about.

- Purple Chive



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 03:31 PM
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Report: Fukushima reactor water may be 144 times as radioactive as anticipated — Would be almost 20 times total Chernobyl release

Contaminated Water Processing at #Fukushima: The Water Was Simply Too “Hot”, EX-SKF, June 19, 2011:

[...] Well, over 100,000 tonnes of highly contaminated water at Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant are estimated to contain 720,000 terabecquerels of radioactive materials.

If Kurion’s vessel absorbed enough radioactive materials in 5 hours and it should have taken 30 days, as I wrote in my previous post, the water was 144 times as radioactive as the system had anticipated.

If the water actually turns out to be 144 times as radioactive, the Fukushima accident would need a new INES category and should not be placed in the same category (Level 7) as the Chernobyl accident which released only 5.6 million terabecquerels of radioactive materials. Maybe it should be simply called “Level Fukushima”.

[144 x 720,000 / 5,600,000 = 18.5]

All is well citizen!



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by Vitchilo
Report: Fukushima reactor water may be 144 times as radioactive as anticipated — Would be almost 20 times total Chernobyl release

Contaminated Water Processing at #Fukushima: The Water Was Simply Too “Hot”, EX-SKF, June 19, 2011:

[...] Well, over 100,000 tonnes of highly contaminated water at Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant are estimated to contain 720,000 terabecquerels of radioactive materials.

If Kurion’s vessel absorbed enough radioactive materials in 5 hours and it should have taken 30 days, as I wrote in my previous post, the water was 144 times as radioactive as the system had anticipated.

If the water actually turns out to be 144 times as radioactive, the Fukushima accident would need a new INES category and should not be placed in the same category (Level 7) as the Chernobyl accident which released only 5.6 million terabecquerels of radioactive materials. Maybe it should be simply called “Level Fukushima”.

[144 x 720,000 / 5,600,000 = 18.5]

All is well citizen!


Well, when the water is glowing yellow/green, I'd say it's pretty radioactive!!



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by matadoor
Although I freely admit to not being anything near an expert on nukes, I can state the following based on my experiences.

There are several examples of smaller detonations initiating far larger ones. Some examples:

1. Dynamite requires a "blasting cap" to detonate. This is a smaller explosion that then causes the mass of high explosives to react and explode. This is also typical of most other commercial explosives on the market.

2. Nuke explosions are a result of high explosives, exploding inward into a "core" of nuclear material, which compresses the core to cause it to explode, again at a much higher level than the high explosives.

As a matter of debate, let's assume (yeah I know) that the SFP melted and fell into a mass blob at the bottom of the SFP. So, you have an extremely tough concrete enclosure, that is only open from the top, exposed to the interior of the building.

A hydrogen explosion takes place (lower explosion). All of the concussion force from this explosion could then compact the "blob" that is surrounded on all sides in the same type of fashion that a regular nuke weapon would be compressed on all sides.

The mass reaches prompt criticallity and explodes.

I know, standing by with kevlar suit on.



Good solid line of reasoning brother but that chain of events depends on the SFR pool being dry or very close to it.

Water is not able to be compacted (for all intents and purposes). If the hydrogen popped it would have displaced the water, expending it's energy on that rather than compacting that geometrically unstable blob of crapola on the bottom of the SFR pool.

Now if that pool was dry there is a damn good chance that the fissile material was shoved over to one side or the other possibly putting enough uranium/plutonium in one mass to get it to go boom. The sole problem I have with that is the SFR assemblies are not just fissile material but all kinds of steel, zirconium alloys and other metals that are now a homogenous mass.

Like I said before I don't know how they build the things- I just look at the crater and figure out what happened
Not sure if the poolium could have gone off with all the extra junk melted into it- anyone got input on that?



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 04:01 PM
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UK Government SECRET documents on Fukushima disaster obtained through freedom of information request.

Guardian Report

The secret documents

The documents reveal that the UK government had an ongoing analysis of the situation and was preparing to issue a quarantine of Japan and its products whilst protecting nationals living in the country.

I'm pretty sure the US and other first world governments were doing the same.

Some interesting points raised and details given in both the report and the guardian article.



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by SFA437

Originally posted by matadoor
Although I freely admit to not being anything near an expert on nukes, I can state the following based on my experiences.

There are several examples of smaller detonations initiating far larger ones. Some examples:

1. Dynamite requires a "blasting cap" to detonate. This is a smaller explosion that then causes the mass of high explosives to react and explode. This is also typical of most other commercial explosives on the market.

2. Nuke explosions are a result of high explosives, exploding inward into a "core" of nuclear material, which compresses the core to cause it to explode, again at a much higher level than the high explosives.

As a matter of debate, let's assume (yeah I know) that the SFP melted and fell into a mass blob at the bottom of the SFP. So, you have an extremely tough concrete enclosure, that is only open from the top, exposed to the interior of the building.

A hydrogen explosion takes place (lower explosion). All of the concussion force from this explosion could then compact the "blob" that is surrounded on all sides in the same type of fashion that a regular nuke weapon would be compressed on all sides.

The mass reaches prompt criticallity and explodes.

I know, standing by with kevlar suit on.



Good solid line of reasoning brother but that chain of events depends on the SFR pool being dry or very close to it.

Water is not able to be compacted (for all intents and purposes). If the hydrogen popped it would have displaced the water, expending it's energy on that rather than compacting that geometrically unstable blob of crapola on the bottom of the SFR pool.

Now if that pool was dry there is a damn good chance that the fissile material was shoved over to one side or the other possibly putting enough uranium/plutonium in one mass to get it to go boom. The sole problem I have with that is the SFR assemblies are not just fissile material but all kinds of steel, zirconium alloys and other metals that are now a homogenous mass.

Like I said before I don't know how they build the things- I just look at the crater and figure out what happened
Not sure if the poolium could have gone off with all the extra junk melted into it- anyone got input on that?


If the fission material melted, I think we can ASSume that the water was already vaporized and long gone, hence why the material melted in the first place.

At the temps that the mass would have reached, I'd imagine that a great amount of anything that went into the pool would have boiled off, with only base materials that could survive the temps to be remaining. I've seen estimates to as much as 5,000 degrees F as to the temp of the pooled fission materials. Here is a chart of the various boiling points of metals.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com...

If it indeed went to 5,000 degrees, most of those metals would be percolated out, but since this has never happened before (that we know of or that there are no records of), a lot of this is "shot in the dark".

So, mass wise, I'd suggest that there would be a vast majority of fission material left, and a minimal amount of "extra goo" remaining.

Having typed that, I'm now also sitting here thinking about how the different liquid metals would be layered as they boiled at their various temps. The lighter metals would be on top boiling, with the heavy fission materials at the bottom. With that in mind, the outer "casing" of various metals might actually help the mass below achieve prompt criticality by focusing the energy of the hydrogen blast, directly to the core of fission materials, like a lens focusing light.



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 04:11 PM
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Youtube Contact Link!!! French Dude - "Playbacklapompe" videos removed!!



Follow this link and INUNDATE Youtube with the horror and revulsion that "Playbacklapompe" videos on Fukushima were removed!!

www.google.com...

www.google.com...

Folks...this is a serious threat to democracy and our friggen lives!!

What's next - "they" remove this ATS forum?

OOOOhhhhh...

- Purple Chive

On Edit: There is a place for comments on the Youtube help center link. www.google.com...

Please express your outrage!!

edit on 20-6-2011 by Purplechive because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by matadoor
If the fission material melted, I think we can ASSume that the water was already vaporized and long gone, hence why the material melted in the first place.

At the temps that the mass would have reached, I'd imagine that a great amount of anything that went into the pool would have boiled off, with only base materials that could survive the temps to be remaining. I've seen estimates to as much as 5,000 degrees F as to the temp of the pooled fission materials. Here is a chart of the various boiling points of metals.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com...

If it indeed went to 5,000 degrees, most of those metals would be percolated out, but since this has never happened before (that we know of or that there are no records of), a lot of this is "shot in the dark".

So, mass wise, I'd suggest that there would be a vast majority of fission material left, and a minimal amount of "extra goo" remaining.

Having typed that, I'm now also sitting here thinking about how the different liquid metals would be layered as they boiled at their various temps. The lighter metals would be on top boiling, with the heavy fission materials at the bottom. With that in mind, the outer "casing" of various metals might actually help the mass below achieve prompt criticality by focusing the energy of the hydrogen blast, directly to the core of fission materials, like a lens focusing light.


Ya know I think you hit the nail on the head!

All along I've been working with TEPCO's temp figures (yeah I know, I know) which had the SFR pool itself just at or slightly below boiling. Considering I spotted poolium falls on #4 when TEPCO was saying the pool was 60C +/- a few degrees- this was a HUGE oversight on my part. Bet that damn pool in #3 was bone dry and open air. The spraying kept it crusted over as lighter materials migrated to the top/sides...

That makes sense as to what happened with the SFR pool but I still contend, and will until my dying breath, that the #3 RPV blew straight up.

OK thinking this through now...

There was a hydrogen blast. The SFR pool had previously breached, dried and melted eventually crusting over. The hydrogen blast compacts the poolium enough to get it to go boom and THAT explosion would have more than sufficient force to knock the bottom out of a weakened, white hot RPV dropping the core into the flooded containment. That flashes over and blows the lid clear off the flange accounting for the linear/directional blast which bent those girders straight up (posted a pic a while back of the probable exit hole).

That would also explain the blasted and flat out MELTED girders over the probable SFR pool location.

Think we have a winner- someone prove me wrong



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by SFA437

Originally posted by matadoor
If the fission material melted, I think we can ASSume that the water was already vaporized and long gone, hence why the material melted in the first place.

At the temps that the mass would have reached, I'd imagine that a great amount of anything that went into the pool would have boiled off, with only base materials that could survive the temps to be remaining. I've seen estimates to as much as 5,000 degrees F as to the temp of the pooled fission materials. Here is a chart of the various boiling points of metals.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com...

If it indeed went to 5,000 degrees, most of those metals would be percolated out, but since this has never happened before (that we know of or that there are no records of), a lot of this is "shot in the dark".

So, mass wise, I'd suggest that there would be a vast majority of fission material left, and a minimal amount of "extra goo" remaining.

Having typed that, I'm now also sitting here thinking about how the different liquid metals would be layered as they boiled at their various temps. The lighter metals would be on top boiling, with the heavy fission materials at the bottom. With that in mind, the outer "casing" of various metals might actually help the mass below achieve prompt criticality by focusing the energy of the hydrogen blast, directly to the core of fission materials, like a lens focusing light.


Ya know I think you hit the nail on the head!

All along I've been working with TEPCO's temp figures (yeah I know, I know) which had the SFR pool itself just at or slightly below boiling. Considering I spotted poolium falls on #4 when TEPCO was saying the pool was 60C +/- a few degrees- this was a HUGE oversight on my part. Bet that damn pool in #3 was bone dry and open air. The spraying kept it crusted over as lighter materials migrated to the top/sides...

That makes sense as to what happened with the SFR pool but I still contend, and will until my dying breath, that the #3 RPV blew straight up.

OK thinking this through now...

There was a hydrogen blast. The SFR pool had previously breached, dried and melted eventually crusting over. The hydrogen blast compacts the poolium enough to get it to go boom and THAT explosion would have more than sufficient force to knock the bottom out of a weakened, white hot RPV dropping the core into the flooded containment. That flashes over and blows the lid clear off the flange accounting for the linear/directional blast which bent those girders straight up (posted a pic a while back of the probable exit hole).

That would also explain the blasted and flat out MELTED girders over the probable SFR pool location.

Think we have a winner- someone prove me wrong


And that my friends, explains "prompt criticality". It explains why there is plutonium scattered for miles around, matter of fact, explains almost everything we have seen to date.

It also explains why there isn't really much left of the #3 SFP. The only thing remaining is the remnants of the fissionable materials that didn't blow, because either they were seperated from the main mass, or they existed in a different layer of the melted blob and never achieved criticality, or they were older rods that couldn't sustain criticality.

What we basically witnessed was the largest nuclear explosion that has most likely ever existed, but since it was not "contained" on all four sides, it blew straight up (mostly) with residual impacts on all sides and bottom.

If you remember the scientist on the movie "Armageodon" explaining why they needed to drill into the asteroid. Light a firecracker in your palm with your hand open, your get burned. Light it with your fist closed, you will need help writing for the rest of your life. Same thing here. Had the spent fuel pool been all enclosed, the resulting explosion would have leveled Fukashima completely and utterly. There would be a smoking crater there now.

Then think this further. Had that happened, would this have resulted in providing the needed energy to cook off the other cores?

Man, THAT right there is why these reactors should NEVER be located this close together.

I honestly don't have a clue about the RPV. maybe it got blown off, don't know. I hope so. Because what scares me the most, is that unless the bottoms completely fell out of them, they ARE contained on all sides, and the resulting explosion would be rated in megatons.



posted on Jun, 20 2011 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by matadoor
 


so if i understand what you said correctly if the roof hadent blown or allready blown it would have been alot worse correct? how sure are we that the roof exploding was from the hydrogen and not from charges or some kind on the roof because they saw this coming?what ever happend to the photos from god only knows what page of this thread that were talking about suposded boddies on the roof could they have set hte charges then succum to the raidiation or are we thinking it was just the hydrogen alone that by chance did this?



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