TA-THREATS: Recent Terrorism Dry Run on Flight 327?

Heads up, this is not the same Annie Jacobsen. Here's a link to a picture of Annie Jacobsen who wrote the article. Annie Jacobsen

She kind of looks like Cameron Diaz, doesn't she?

Another thing to consider when thinking about terrorists recruiting non-arabs is what they all have in common, they fail and they are captured. Their hearts arent in it. Do you think Reids shoe bomb was really a dud, or do you think maybe he realized at the last minute he didnt want his body to be ripped apart for this cause? I think he wanted to be caught so he wasnt seen as a coward by his buddies. This tactic has not paid off for Al Queda yet. Its hard to get someone with a future whose society hasnt blamed another culture for the fact that they have no future. It takes a kind of hate and desperation that can only be planted and harvested over a long period of time.

All I'm saying is that its better to cover all your bases then to focus on one particular threat. There are radical muslims in the phillipines (asian), Chechnya (white), and kenya (black) and none of those places are known for their native arab culture. Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani doesent look very arabic to me. Faces of Al-Qaeda
Granted the leadership will be largely arab but that does not necessarily mean the grunts will be as well.

Originally posted by boogyman
All I'm saying is that its better to cover all your bases then to focus on one particular threat.

Sure, fine. You can place a primary emphasis on Arabs, Levantines, Persians, South Asians, and North Africans. Then also be on the lookout for Chechens. Then pay some attention to suspicious Filipinos (who really have taken to operations in their own country and who only comprise about 4% of that country's population), Indonesians, and West and East Africans. At anothe rlevel, focus can be payed to Westerners who have converted to Islam and have spent time in countries with terrorist connections, like John Walker Lindh.

One of the previous poster was right. The highest likelihood of finding a terrorist is finding someone who was immersed in his ideology, usually in a country which harbors and sanctions such beliefs, preferably with significant support of the population.

What I assume when people say "Arab" is that they mean moslems from North Africa eastward to Pakistan and Afghanistan. I reckon that many people who actually know the different nationalities wouldn't be able to guess who's who if shown pictures and asked to determine a Jordanian versus a Qatari.

[edit on 19-7-2004 by Eastern_Diamondback]

Originally posted by curme
Do people believe that blacks should be followed around by mall security too?

Mmm, an interesting point. A couple of years ago a senior London police officer was heavily repremanded and subsequently dismissed from his post because of a similar type of thing. He was discussing aggravated assaults and violent robberies & muggings involving firearms in an area of London called Brixton. Now, Brixton is perhaps THE black area in London, the black population making up well over 75% of the local residents. The officer in question, utilising sophisticated Scotland Yard profiling techniques, came up with the simple fact that in over 99% of recorded cases over the previous year that the perpetrator was a black male aged between 16 and 30 for these specific crimes.

However, the 'mistake' that the man in question made was to recommend that his force focus primarily on this group when investigating crimes of this nature, in this area.

Here's the point. The chap knew that violent street-crime in this part of town was nearly always down to young black males. By automatically ignoring all other races he could speed up the capture and detention of these suspects while not wasting millions of the tax payers cash being 'PC'. Totally sensible I thought. Totally sensible everyone I know thought. Totally sensible the whole country thought, with a couple of exceptions: The PC thugs and rampant lefties who ruin things for the majority.

The same goes for Arabic males boarding flights. They should all be given a much more thorough searching than any white, black, oriental etc passengers, as they are the ones who are most likely to be attempting to commit the crime.

Of course the likelyhood is that they are not, but why bother to pander to the senseless ramblings of a few lefty nutters? We should do ourselves and our countries' a favour, and get past this pc-rhetoric before it costs us more lives.

B

The higher up in power you go, the less common sense and more stupidity you have(as proved by Bush).

If the KKK were crashing planes, what possible reason could they think of to search black people? Wouldnt anyone with half a brain think that would take manpower away from trying to find the possible attackers and increase the chances of a successful attack.

Its a really sad world when being PC is going to cost many, many lives.

I listened to a very interesting discussion concerning minority groups in the U.S. and there ability to when voting in unision change the outcome of political elections. This is the major reason why our politicans have pursued
the arena of political correctness. They pander to these groups in the hopes of gaining there vote and sway the election. If you are an ardent rebulican or demorcrat they have no worry.
I bring this to you attention only to point out that your local and regional care nothing about the majority of Americans. The incident that transpired onboard this particular commerical carrier happens on a daily bases. Our government is not looking out for the welfare of the majority only the minority.
If you want to change this political climate. speak out like this woman has. You voice of of distain multiplied be hundreds of others will have an impact.

in stopping al-Qaida terrorism.

Discrimination by "national origin", and especially religion, is.

Here, the language and character of the names are more useful than the photographs.

What got me reading this article was the response by the air marshalls - 'we can't do anything until there is an event'. YIKES. The 'event' would be for the plane to blow up ... THEN they can do something? Everyone would be dead. No one could then 'do something'. How screwed up is that?

I'm sure this won't be popular but ... racial profiling works. No one likes to admit it. When racial profiling is used, crime goes down drastically. It's a statistical fact. Catholic priests aren't hijacking planes and mass murdering ... it's young muslim men. Profile them. I'm sure the innocent muslim men who fly will be glad that the flight is that much safer and that they'll live and not be blown up.

If there was a middle aged white woman running around the mall stealing things, I wouldn't mind in the least having security keep an eye on me while shopping in the mall. I would know that if they catch the woman, it would be better for everyone.

I don't mind profiling in my direction, I would hope young muslim men wouldn't mind either. If they do mind, then they should educate their fellow muslims that they shouldn't be terrorists. So far, I haven't heard anything come out of the American Muslim community about teaching their young men not to murder in the name of Allah, or that they are in disagreement with the murderers.

Annie Jacobsen has followed up her original article with another that addresses many issues brought up by posters to the original news story. In this followup she includes many opinions by aircrew its an interesting read.

Annie Jacobsen Followup Article

I just wish to present one question for those who are against profiling in situations where peoples lives are at stake. And no dodging or redirecting. Do you believe that if terrorists do get another plane because security was busy frisking somebodys grandma from Wisconsin, while letting a group of young arabic/muslim males go by, that it is a fair price to pay so as not to hurt any feelings? This question is not about what has or has not happened, just what if, is it worth it?

[edit on 19-7-2004 by jd27]

Its not a question of feelings its a question of practicality. Its impractical from a security stand point to assume that only one target poses a threat. What are you saying that no matter what all Arab males should be searched automatically. Okay fine then what about their families are we supposed to search them automatically too. What if the Arab man and the Grandma from wisconsin are traveling together do we just check the arab or do we check both of them? What if Grandma is traveling by her self but is really close freinds with an arab man back in wisconsin do you ignore her because shes not an arab? It is impossible to determine the sympathies of an individual 100% of the time just by their appearance. The only way for the system to be effective is to view everyone with suspicion.

[edit on 20-7-2004 by boogyman]

See, that was a redirection. This is not a discussion about whether people who arent part of the jihad have the capability to commit a terrorist act. We all do, but the fact that you just arent absorbing here is that the statistics, the chance that grandma from Wisconsins arab friend has convinced her to murder thousands of her fellow Americans in exchange for 72 virgins in the afterlife is just not likely. How is this eluding you? Not one terror attack in the current war on terror has been commited by one of these extremist muslim whiteboys from California you speak of. There have of course been fanatical terrorists here in America, but up until this point they only go after whatever it is that angers them (i.e. abortion clinics, etc.) But they are generally IRA like in that they dont aim to inflict the max amount of casualties, just make a forceful and intimidating statement. They have never targeted planes, and if youre talking about logical security, how can you say we should start directing scarce manpower to focus on situations that are only minutely possible? And Im also not stating that we only search Arabs and not other passengers everybody should be screened, but those who are from these regions with these teachings we have mentioned in previous posts, should be screened more thoroughly, and if theres a guy with a flat-top and a Ted Nugent shirt on, search him too. But you know as well as I grandma from Wisconsin will NOT blow up the plane. Hopefully her arab friend will understand its for his own safety he be screened and that the security will be well trained enough to truly let him know its not a personal attack, and that theres no dislike only extreme caution in these extreme times. And when a group of blonde militant muslim surfers from Cali hijack a plane, then I will feel like an a$$, but I dont see that happening. And you never answered my question, would it be worth it?

[edit on 20-7-2004 by jd27]

[edit on 20-7-2004 by jd27]

MSNBC's Scarborough Country aired a full interview with the Jacobsens. Looks like MSNBC posted the interview on their website as well.

msnbc.msn.com...

She claims to have several commercial pilots who are willing to go on record to expose what they claim is the airline's "dirty little secret". Apparently, these pilots claim there have been several "dry runs" recently on other flights as well!

(From her 2nd article)

"Gary Boettcher, Member, Board of Directors, Allied Pilots Association, said, "Folks, I am a Captain with a major airline. I was very involved with the Arming Pilots effort. Your reprint of this airborne event is not a singular nor isolated experience. The terrorists are probing us all the time."

During a later phone conversation I had with Boettcher, he told me that based on his experience, it was his opinion that I was likely on a dry run. He said he's had many of these experiences and so have many of his fellow captains. They've been trying to speak out about this but so far their words have been falling on deaf ears.

According to Mark Bogosian, B-757/767 pilot for American Airlines, "The incident you wrote about, and incidents like it, occur more than you like to think. It is a ���€š���"dirty little secret' that all of us, as crew members, have known about for quite some time."



[edit on 20-7-2004 by loam]

[edit on 20-7-2004 by loam]

discrimination by "race" is not helpful

in stopping al-Qaida terrorism.

Discrimination by "national origin", and especially religion, is.

Who's saying race alone? Of course it's best to be as specific as possible. But people have to start somewhere. Unless a man was wearing some outward symobols, could you tell apart a Lebanese Catholic from a Syrian Moslem? My guess is that if both were wearing the exact same clothing and didn't speak a word, not even fellow Lebanese and Syrians would be able to tell the difference.

So what to do? You narrow down the pool. Arab/North African/Levantine/Persian/SouthAsian >>>> Moslems >>>> country of origin >>>> male >>>> young adult >>>> extremist influence >>>> those who have spent time in terrorist hotbeds. Go as far as you can go with available information.

In addition to that, you can be on the lookout for other suspicious people.

The reporter on Scarbough County confirmed what some suspected, there were 14 Arabs on-board, um, they were musicians. They were checked out before and after boarding. (See the " False alarm July 19 Video: NBC's Pete Williams clarifies the Jacobsen's story.")

So what do we have? People reading suspicion into the simplist of acts that would of gone un-noticed if the musicians were white. Is this country safer? Now people can't even fly without going into hysterics when brown people go to the bathhroom.

This isn't about racial profiling, because the brown people were checked out. This is about acting like an idiot every time your in a room with a brown person. Reading something sinister into acts you wouldn't think about if the person were white. Almost wetting yourself everytime you see an Arab.

Why were people so quick to believe this story? It's like they wanted there to be hijackers. Why? To confirm your xenophobic suspicions? To justify your racism? To make you feel better about it?

curme I know you so want this to go away but even you have to admit that the 9/11 highjackers were not blond blue eyed nordic types, nobody here is advocating police state tactics against "brown" skinned people as you put it. Even you must admit that the policy of fining an airline for quetioning more than two "brown" people for a flight that may have as many as 200-300 hundred on it is not serving anyones security needs including those oft mentioned brown people - common sense needs to prevail in all aspects of this issue - that was the true point of Jacobsens story in the first place. searching a 6 year old of any race or an infirm older person is patently stupid and purely political in nature, it serves no other useful function and is a complete waste of time and effort period.

As to the TV interview proving they were musicians, wait a minute Annie in a followup says that was never really proven other than thats what the 14 claimed,

Then I spoke with a producer from ABC. She explained that she could not get Dave Adams, Head of Public Affairs of the Federal Air Marshal Services (FAM), on the phone. So she asked me some of the questions that she had wanted to ask him: Where exactly did this band of 14 musicians play? What was the name of the band? Who booked the band and what kind of music did they play? Did anyone follow up and actually witness these 14 men performing at their desert casino gig? I had none of the answers, even though I had asked Adams these exact questions myself when we spoke last week.

curme imagine for a moment that you are a terrorist leader and you want to test current security and response, are you going to send known operators with dirty records or more likely being the smart terrorist that you are, your going to send unknowns with clean records to do this recon. Logic and common sense curme! Thats all this is about.

Some comments from Annies new article about the occurence of dryruns and security check procedures,

And I now have another important question... Is there a link between my experience on flight #327 and the arrest of Ali Mohamed Almosaleh by customs agents at the Minneapolis Airport on July 7 (approximately one week after my flight)? Almosaleh was traveling from Damascus, Syria, to Minneapolis on KLM/Northwest Airlines. According to CNN.com, "Agents found Almosaleh to be carrying what they described as a suicide note and DVDs containing anti-American material."

It was initially reported by CNN.com that the man "is not known to the intelligence community, and that his name was not on any terrorist watch list." The following day, on TwinCities.com, the St. Paul Pioneer Press reported that Almosaleh "had something with him indicating a connection with at least one known terrorist." So, did a more thorough check of the man reveal this critical new information? Remember, according to Adams, FAM checked the 14 Syrian men on my flight against the terrorist watch lists. They found no match, so they let them go. I wonder what might have happened if the 14 Syrians on my flight had been looked into more thoroughly?

These comments from airline flight crew on frequency of dryruns,

According to Mark Bogosian, B-757/767 pilot for American Airlines, "The incident you wrote about, and incidents like it, occur more than you like to think. It is a"dirty little secret' that all of us, as crew members, have known about for quite some time."

curme whats violates someones civil rights more egregiously - being offended by a security check or losing ones life because a security check was not done?

I say losing your life takes preference in pondering harm to someones rights, trumps everytime in my book.

Originally posted by curme
So what do we have? People reading suspicion into the simplist of acts that would of gone un-noticed if the musicians were white.

When white people get a track record of airline hijackings then you can start making comparisons.

Is this country safer? Now people can't even fly without going into hysterics when brown people go to the bathhroom.

Whether people are safer is a completely different from whether they feel safer. I venture to say that all the passengers on the four hijacked flights Sept. 11 felt safe taking the flights.

This is about acting like an idiot every time your in a room with a brown person. Reading something sinister into acts you wouldn't think about if the person were white. Almost wetting yourself everytime you see an Arab.

Like I said, when white people get that track record of hijackings then you can talk.

Why were people so quick to believe this story? It's like they wanted there to be hijackers. Why? To confirm your xenophobic suspicions? To justify your racism? To make you feel better about it?

Maybe because the account Mrs. Jacobsen gave was true and corroborated by additional witnesses and officials. When 7 Arab men who have been acting strangely the entire flight suddenly get up to use the bathroom simultaneously, despite the fact that they were not supposed to get up during the approach, there's reason to be concerned. If that's racism, then maybe there need to be more racists.

Originally posted by Phoenix

curme whats violates someones civil rights more egregiously - being offended by a security check or losing ones life because a security check was not done?

I say losing your life takes preference in pondering harm to someones rights, trumps everytime in my book.

It's not about seciurity checks, these people were checked before and after. It's about going nuts every time an Arab person sneezes. It's about holding your purse a little tighter when you walk by a black person. It's people seeking confirmation that, yes, brown people are bad. It's about some lady on a plane who went into hysterics at seeing a Arab band, and started to apply conspiracy to every move they made, and the millions of bloggers who wanted to believe her to justify thier own fear of minorities.

curme your digressing and changing the subject, all of this back and forth has hinged on the singular issue of passenger "profiling" as a means of securing an aircraft from terrorist acts, recent history demonstrated the threat comes from a paticular type of person other than 7 year old children, this you seem to discount entirely in your effort to have no prejudice involved in profiling passengers, you continue to ignore such things as the American Airline pilots comment that there is a pattern of this activity across the board - I guess he's just a nervous nellie too?

Besides how many 14 member bands from Syria play desert venues do you know of? I'll guess the answer to that is a big fat zero.

It is unfortunate that we are in this predicament but a reasonable response to security needs is in order, profiling IS one aspect that is crippling the system as it stands.

Do you have no care for the people that may die due to the current policy?

As it stands there is a giant hole in security for those that want to cause harm to step right on through and I have seen no practicle suggestion from you on how to close that gap.