TA-THREATS: Recent Terrorism Dry Run on Flight 327?

Originally posted by Phoenix
you continue to ignore such things as the American Airline pilots comment that there is a pattern of this activity across the board - I guess he's just a nervous nellie too?

Just for the record, that e-mail was from someone Annie said was a pilot. She really isn't the best source for reliable info.

I don't know about you, but if I saw this on my flight, and I've flown alot, I'd be getting up and getting to know about 13 other friends real quick. I'd state my observation, and ask if they'd simply mind standing (I'd look for the bigger guys, hehe), up near these gents, to "discourage" any harmful activity. Wouldn't need to say a word, or anything else but simply make it clear that we weren't going to put up with that crap anymore....

Originally posted by curme

Originally posted by Phoenix
you continue to ignore such things as the American Airline pilots comment that there is a pattern of this activity across the board - I guess he's just a nervous nellie too?

Just for the record, that e-mail was from someone Annie said was a pilot. She really isn't the best source for reliable info.

Heres another one she mentioned

Gary Boettcher, Member, Board of Directors, Allied Pilots Association, said, "Folks, I am a Captain with a major airline. I was very involved with the Arming Pilots effort. Your reprint of this airborne event is not a singular nor isolated experience. The terrorists are probing us all the time."

Since I believe these were real emails I have no reason to make further steps.

Maybe you could google them and send them an email asking if they are truthful or not since that is the only way to prove or disprove Annie's veracity for yourself rather than making unfounded assertions.

During a later phone conversation I had with Boettcher, he told me that based on his experience, it was his opinion that I was likely on a dry run. He said he's had many of these experiences and so have many of his fellow captains. They've been trying to speak out about this but so far their words have been falling on deaf ears.

trying to speak out about it? Words falling on deaf ears? Hasn't he heard of the internet? This story has proven that just a sniff of a rumour is all over the internet within a few days. Maybe if they want to get the message out they should do a little more than just whispering amongst themselves...

One other thing I find a bit strange.. why didn't any other passengers report this to the media? Or why didn't they at least try talking to the "hijackers"?

If I saw someone acting as suspicious like this I'd challenge them myself. I've done it before on tube trains, like when people leave the bag at the end of the carriage where it looks un-attended. In the very least, if it was obvious that other passengers were wary, I'd rustle together a small posse and make it damn clear we were all watching them closely. There's no laws against that.



[edit on 20-7-2004 by muppet]

Probably because many of the passengers were ordinary folks who had little reason reporting it to the media. They probably saw the guys pulled over by the feds and figured case closed.

If I saw it, I wouldnt be reporting it to news networks if someone else already reported it. I would be warning family and friends though.

Curme is totally missing the point. Who carea what those 14 Arabs CLAIMED to be? You think, "Oh, the passed security allready". What a joke.

You obviously havent been flying too much lately. Security at airports is a friggin joke.

Remeber, the 9/11 hijackers all passed security checks too. They were even pulled aside to be checked again. Obviously, security check or, no, had the passengers on 9/11 been more suspicous of "brown men" on thier aircraft acting strangely, they might be alive today.

If I see 14 brown men all getting up to use the bathroom together when they are supposed to be seated, you better believe im gonna get suspicous and watch them like a hawk. If I see 14 white boys all getting up together and acting strangely, you better believe Im gonna watch them like a hawk.

But so far, I havent seen a gaggle of white boys acting wierd.

Perhaps the Arabs should not act like a bunch of idiots and behave in a way thats gonna get suspicon thrown on them. I have been on several flights since 9/11 with "brown men" on them, and no one gave them a second glance.

Because they were acting normally.

One other thing I find a bit strange.. why didn't any other passengers report this to the media?

That's a legitimate question. However, it may be possible that they will if it's mentioned more prominently in national news broadcasts. And perhaps seeing as though there wasn't an actual incident, people will fear being labeled racist for being suspicious of Arabs.

If I saw someone acting as suspicious like this I'd challenge them myself. I've done it before on tube trains, like when people leave the bag at the end of the carriage where it looks un-attended.

I've had an experience with an unattented briefcase on a train before. It was scary as hell. While I was still living in Chicago, I was taking the El train from Midway airport to my job downtown. As I sat in the second car waiting to depart, a man in his mid 30's entered and sat down near the door. He was carrying a rather large briefcase which he rested gently on the ground. I thought it was a little odd. He then stood up and walked around the car, leaving his briefcase unattended. Again I thought it was odd, so I kept one eye on him, another on the briefcase, just in case he was a naive out of towner who could have it stolen. After about 30 seconds he actually stepped out of the car to look at the train schedule, and I thought to myself "WTF?" At this point I started getting nervous that maybe there was more to the breifcase than I thought. Keep in mind, this was years before 9/11, maybe 1996 or 1997, when suicide bombers were all the rage in Israel. Then to my horror, the bell signalling "doors closing" sounded off. I saw the man a decent distance away from his breifcase, and I feared he wouldn't get back in, wondering at the same time if he had any intention of doing so. At this moment I jumped up and was ready to yell at full volume as I raced off the train. At this point the man noticed the doors about to close, and he jumped into the train car before his cargo was left behind. I waas quite relieved at this sight. When he settled down into his seat i rushed over toward him and gave him a piece of my mind. Fortunately I was civil. I told him he couldn't know who was on the train and he was at risk of having his breifcase stolen. And then I told him that since I had no idea who he was I feared that he left a bomb on the train. I ended by telling him to please be more sensible and not to do something like that again. We rode the train for the next 25 minutes in silence without so much as a glance at each other. It wasn't a fun experience.

[edit on 7/20/2004 by Eastern_Diamondback]

Why haven't one of the arab (i said it) men come forward. Sorry, but this pc stuff is out of control.

There is a thing called profiling. If you are a young black or white, dressed in hip-hop clothing, a cop is more likely to stop you in a car, than the neatly dressed WHITE OR BLACK kid in a car. This may not be fair, but if you present your self as someone who screams 'probable cause', well, live with it. If I was walking down a street alone with my wife and I saw a group of 14 people of any color, i would wonder what was going on. Then, if they started acting strangely, or did something to give me a 'gut feeling', i would act on it.

Now 14 arab looking gentlemen board a plane, you are damn right I am suspicious. Took less than half that number on 9/11. and what kind of band are these guys? 14 members? Are they an Arab ska-band?

Also think that if these 14 men were on this plane add they crashed it, we would be sitting here arguing WHY they were all allowed on the plane. We cannot have it both ways, and remember, flying is not a right, it is a privelage.

If I saw someone acting as suspicious like this I'd challenge them myself. I've done it before on tube trains, like when people leave the bag at the end of the carriage where it looks un-attended. In the very least, if it was obvious that other passengers were wary, I'd rustle together a small posse and make it damn clear we were all watching them closely. There's no laws against that.

Hey! That's my idea! (I mentioned it above, hehe..) But feel perfectly free to use it, in fact, it'd make my very happy.

I'm with Skadi...14 guys getting up and behaving like that and I don't care if they are black, white, purple, whatever, something has to be done....

Personally, I am, and have been, sick of all this PC bullcrap. Now there are many middle easterners who travel everyday by plane. I know I've seen many...no biggie, in most cases, they are citizens just like you and I, or are here for legitimate reasons. But, as long as they, just like everyone else, behave in a normal manner, I'm cool with it. You don't need to discriminate in order to be aware of your surroundings. These passengers, and flight attendants, etc. were so busy being afraid of political correctness. Sorry, but in a choice between fear of being PC, and fear of being crashed into a building.....I know which one is going to win out....

Eastern_Diamondback,

You did the right thing. Everybody these days knows about the security threats, and no-one should ever be offended by someone doing their bit.

i had a strange situation once when I got on a tube train(northern line) and there was a bag in standing area by the door, against one side. I asked if the bag belonged to anyone, and an old asian chap help his hand up. I said "excuse me but would you mind keeping your bag with you, or staying with it" He turned out to have bad english but you could instantly tell he was a respectable old man, and realised what I was saying and why.

He stood up to lean over to pull it closer, and then a couple of Irish guys sitting opposite started giving ME grief telling me to mind my own business! I told them they of all people should be aware of the issues regarding unattended bags, and they just continued to give me grief, trying to stare me out. At one point one of themsaid "**** off and mind your own business, there are 4 plain clothed police on this train."

I thought, "yeah right" told them to mind THERE own business, by which time my stop had arrived, so I passed the bag over to the Asian guy who didn't seem to have a clue what was going on, he thanked me and I got off.

You meet all sorts on tube trains.

[edit on 20-7-2004 by muppet]

Originally posted by Gazrok]
Hey! That's my idea! (I mentioned it above, hehe..) But feel perfectly free to use it, in fact, it'd make my very happy.

Sorry... I didn't see your suggestion!! honest! Great minds think alike I guess. Personally I'd go for two or three groups of 6 or 7 people, all relatively close but in different directions around the "suspects". Lots of direct eye contact, and two or three "talkers" to get them chatting. maybe I'm getting a bit theatrical though......


[edit on 20-7-2004 by muppet]

Trust me, even one on two (7 people) and I bet they'd back down...(unless they had guns, which isn't likely much anymore) Filthy cowards....

Originally posted by Gazrok
Trust me, even one on two (7 people) and I bet they'd back down...(unless they had guns, which isn't likely much anymore)

Filthy cowards....

You mean the musicians going to the bathroom? Now we have a bunch of people harrassing Arabs because everytihing they do is perceived as some kind of threat. There is no suspicious behavior anymore. Everything they do is suspicious. I am so glad I'm white. whenever I scratch my ass, I don't have a bunch of people afraid I'm going to pull a stick of dynamite from between my butt cheeks. Hell, I could do plant a bomb somewhere, no one cares about me. Everybody is watching the brown people.

I think we agree that security should be for everyone, and suspicous people should be watched closely.

Those 14 Syrians were checked out, before and after. They were just musicians. It's how they were treated that is so disgusting. Every innocent action turned into a sinister plot of treachery.

What a relief, the mysterious goateed one, mouthed the word "No" at the last minute. Seemed to me like they'd already gotten away with everything they wanted to do up until that point. Jesus! And people will just lap this grade B plotline up.

Perhaps the nice Arab you were friendly with at first (aren't they all so pleasant?) was giving you the stinkeye because everyone on the plane was staring at him, waiting to light his shoes on fire? "My goodness, that man was so much friendlier when hundreds of people on board a plane weren't suspecting him of being a terrorist!"

I think where we part is that everytime an Arab asks for a pillow on an airplane, you people think he is going to smother you with it.

I don't know about you, but I have quite a few arab friends, and other "brown" men as well.

Those 14 Syrians were checked out, before and after. They were just musicians. It's how they were treated that is so disgusting. Every innocent action turned into a sinister plot of treachery.

I don't care if you're white, black, whatever, when FOURTEEN men get up on an airplane, AT THE SAME TIME, and some guard doors, others take cameras and phones into the bathroom, and others take up other STANDING positions...I'm going to be a little concerned!

If you read my suggestion, I did not advocate violence, I advocated establishing an opposing presence, as a deterrent against activity. If they were just getting up to stretch their legs, then fine, I'd sit down when they do... This is about BEHAVIOR, not color. If YOU saw this (please actually READ the article to see the behavior) happening on YOUR plane, would you just think nothing of it? I know I wouldn't....

Curme, your inability to engage the issues here shows you have no arguewment to stand on.

Those "brown" people were behaving very wierd. You havent even tried to debate one legit point here. Im not even going to argue with you, its pointless, you are drunk of left wing "all white people are paranoid racists" wine. Brown people should NEVER be looked at. Nope, none of thier actions are suspicous. All our imaginations.

Read above. I have been on several post 9/11 flights where there were Arabs or middle easterns, and no one ghave them a second glance when they ordered a drink, went to the bathroom, ect. because they werent doing anything TO alarm anyone. They were behaving in a manner in which was not strange. Was not odd. And there was more than one on my flight to britain.

It is clear from this news article that these supposed "musicians" were more than what they seemd, or on some pretty bad drugs and behaving erratically. Anyone in thier right mind witnessing therse people behaving as they did would be alarmed incredibly. The way these guys were acting is NOT normal behavior for an airplane passenger.

RTemeber, this was a DRY run. You know, go through the motions without actually doin anything? They DID do this before 9/11 as well. Was the guy who witnessed the odd behavior of the 4 arab men on the boston to los angelas flight, a week before 9/11, a paranoid white person because he reported the wierd behavior of the Arabs?

if so, then maybe paranoid white people are what we need.

Originally posted by GazrokIf YOU saw this (please actually READ the article to see the behavior) happening on YOUR plane, would you just think nothing of it? I know I wouldn't....

If I saw this behavior, then I agree with you, but I don't believe Annie's account of what happened. I believe she embellished it through hysteria and paranoia, and maybe a need for some recognition. It all comes down to whether you believe her or not, I don't. The story sounds too inconsistent and implausible.

Curme, whether this woman embellished this story or not is really not relevant to the discussion at hand. And personally I doubt she made it up, she may have through descriptive writing inadvertantly horrored it up a bit, but I believe this happened. Whether the dude stared her down or not and turned into pure evil once the plane got off the ground is questionable, but we know for sure there are laws against thoroughly screening all 14 of these men, and that is completely negligent. And no Im not scared of "brown" people or think they are all up to no good, were all buddies with the arabs that own stores in our neighborhoods, we probably all have at least one healthcare provider that is from the middle east, they are good people that are here to make a living and are not interested in jihad. But there is a very large and growing number of people from that region that are, and theres no way to tell who is and who isnt a terrorist just by looking. And there is just too much at stake when it comes to peoples lives. The arabs who are here honestly should understand whats at stake, and direct their anger towards those who wish to murder us, and the governments that support them. I will ask another question of those against profiling, since my last went unanswered. If you had to drop off your child at the terminal to go visit his grandparents, and you saw those 14 Syrian elvis impersonators, or musicians, or whatever they said they were, or any group of young arabic/muslim men boarding your childs flight with all kinds of carry-on luggage after breezing through the fine-fearing security checkpoints, how would you honestly feel sending your child on that flight. I hope to get an answer, but I expect dodging or redirecting as with my last question.


[edit on 20-7-2004 by jd27]

I did not answer your question because it was a leading question. Either I come off as callous and uncaring about the safety of innocent people or I agree with your assertation that those arabs should be put through a pointless search that will divert manpower from other areas. What do you mean by "while letting a group of young arabic/muslim males go by" are you saying that any arab man who happens to want to get someplace by plane should be pulled aside and strip searched. Do you have any idea how many Arab men come through the airport on a daily basis? It is impossible to search every one of them and still maintain security for the "minutely possible" as you put it. By the way it turns out the minutely possible might not be so minute after all... Europe fears converts may aid Islamic militants

In response to your second question i wouldnt feel threatened at all. Why? because I know the terrorists are not stupid at least the pro's arent anyway. If they were going to strike they wouldn't do it in a way so obvious that all the armchair anti-terror czars can come up with the easy answer to screen all the arabs which is , or to screen all muslims which is even more infeasible.

Please grace me with one incident in which recently converted muslims have pulled off a succesful attack, just one incident, please. And my second question was would you put your CHILD on that plane, not yourself, you cant answer either question because you have no ground to stand on in your argument. More attention should be paid to arabs in these times when it comes to the security of a large amount of people whos lives you have no right to endanger with your bleeding heart. Im not talking about following them around as they go about their daily lives, or placing them in concentration camps although youll probably try and pin that to me. Im just saying that you cannot put the what ifs in the same basket as the what was and what is, and to this point any recruiting of children and grandmothers has not occured, you can speculate and the media can speculate, but you have no facts, you are full of what ifs, sure theres plenty of arabs passing through airports, and those with children and grandmothers should not undergo extra screening, because terrorists arent stupid enough to blow their support back home by bringing women and children on suicide missions, thats another well have to "cross that bridge when we come to it" situation. Until then lone and groups of arab males should undergo extra screening, trust me, I wish it didnt have to come to this, but the price of error is to high. We have to go by the facts, and Im not going to go into all of them again. And once again you dodged my question when I asked if you would put your CHILD on that plane, you seemed to have answered by saying YOU wouldnt be afraid on that flight. Would you trust your assumption that the war on terror is completely fabricated and there isnt nations full of muslim men that hate us, with youre childs life? I look forward to redirect #3.

[edit on 21-7-2004 by jd27]

Honestly though I think we are just having a failure to communicate here.
These are my beliefs regarding the prevention of airline terrorism.

1. Profiling has its place just not at the airport security checkpoint because by then its already too late. If our intelligence services failed to pick up these guys after months of surveilance dont think a search no matter how thorough will prevent them from carrying out their goals. Also don't think the security peole are just going to turn a blind eye to suspicious arabs because they want to be PC. The same suspicions that you have they have too and if they get a weird vibe off of a guy they be darn will sure to double and triple check him. Remember their jobs are at stake.

2. Air marshalls should not be restricted by PC rules when something actually might be going down. Also air marshalls should not be required to follow a dress code that screams "I work for the government" Everyone knows the best undercover agents blend in with their surroundings. After all the terrorist use profiling as well.

3. We need uniform rules and standards when it comes to airport security. I'm tired of hearing how each airport has a different interpretation of their S.O.P. Oh and try not change the rules every other week it just makes them look like idiots.

4. Increase the number of security personel. Many airport checkpoints are currently understaffed. To get around this the powers that be reduced the number of screeners required to safely run a lane from 7 to 4. If you see less then four complain to someone. Screeners are basically forced to operate in a more "efficient" manner basically doing two jobs at once causing them to become fatigued. Do you really want someone handling security who is haveing to keep an eye on the xray, handle reruns, and make sure the belt doesent overflow while answering questions from passengers all at the same time?

5. Make sure the airlines remember who the boss is. Ease of passenger flow does not come before safety yet the airlines and some TSA administrators think other wise.Flight Risk

6. Revise the procedure to select passengers for more thorough checks. The current system selects roughly 14% of passengers for secondary screening and is based on such vague information as last minute booking, one way tickets, and internet ticket purchase. So the end result is whenever a flight gets cancelled security gets swamped because everyone on that flight winds up making a last minute booking and gets pulled aside. I hear that they are going to revise the system shortly to focus on criminal records and other more useful information like actual gathered intelligence (extremeist affliation etc.)
Whether or not the changes will be effective remains to be seen.

7. Remove the private company jokers form the security process! Most people think this already occoured with the creation of TSA. It hasnt since there is a shortage of screeners at certain airports, private security has stepped in to fill the need. Nothing obvious of course they usually wind up maintaing control of public exit points when passenger flow is low (usually during the early or late shifts). Unacceptable non the less. Through in the fact that airports will be soon given the option to opt out of being required to have security be handled by TSA and you have apotential mess on your hands.

8.Increase the standards and training for TSA screeners. Nothing major just make sure they have at least the mental competence and common sense required of a police officer, and give them more detailed training in bomb operation and weapon recognition. The fact that they have to wait for the police to show up to verify that the lighter shaped like a derringer is in fact just a lighter is ridiculous in my opinion.

Thats more or less it...
Remember I have no problem with the concept of profiling. Profiling has always had a place as a vital tool in law enforcement. Just make sure its being done for the right reasons and not out of intellectual and bureacratic lazyness.
just a regular Arab=bad reason!
Person with ties religious extremism=good reason!
person acting visibly suspicious who is an arab=good reason!

I hope we can put this disagreement behind us.

It does seem we have more in common then I previously thought. I too believe in increased security personel, I also agree that they have the potential to become fatigued and thus miss vital signs. The only hang-up is the deciphering who is a suspicious arab and who is not, if it were go time for a real operation, Im sure they would act as civil and non-chalant as possible, they wouldnt try to board with cammo fatigues, a turbine and an AK-47 slung over their shoulder. Atta had befriended several Americans before 9/11, nobody for a minute thought he could do something like that, by the time you see somebody acting suspicious it may be far too late. Again I am not a racist, I have no dislike for arab/muslim people, I have muslim friends, but you also cant leave your back turned so some arab who looks innocent enough but has been manufactured as a weapon by his culture, can stick a knife in it. Like we said before, generally that kind of hate comes from a lifetime of conditioning, the kind of hate that drives someone to cut of the head of another man with a small knife. That cruelty is seen as justified over there. Converts have not been in that oven long enough. But I wish you no hard feelings as this is a civilized discussion, and Im sure you do care if people die, its just that when security is as stretched as we both agree it is our feelings differ over where focus should be. And the reason I asked the question about if you would put your child on that flight is to maybe make you imagine it and maybe then youll see that you too would have an inner conflict about whether a group of young arab men on a plane with your child sits well in your stomach. Because everybody on any plane is somebodies child. But that is just the way I feel and youre entitled to your opinion also, but as it stands I will not fly or put my child on a plane with the current security situation, however you propose we fix it. But theres no need for hard feelings, debate is good and we wouldnt have a democracy if it wasnt, after all were all in the same boat.

[edit on 21-7-2004 by jd27]