Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.

Re NOTurTypical

You wrote:

["So God is limited by human definitions of morality?

That's pretty arrogant."]


As my recent response to you clearly indicated, the arrogance is on your side. Any definition of 'limits' of 'god' (from whatever direction they come), are secondary to your subjective claims of such a 'god' actually existing in any specific way.

I can postulate 'god' as the man in the moon, invent all kind of fables and doctrines around him, and when opposed I can claim to the opposition: "You bear the burden of proof", as you do now.

Try to get around to co-sensus forms of argumentation (unless you just want to preach); stating your basis, justify your methodology, learn general semantics and logics, get an idea about science. Your 'general rhetorics' approach is just so many words.

Try to find a tangible point (if you have any apart from your almost solipsistic subjectivism) and stay with it. Any amount of non-sense can be send out, pretending to be the real thing.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You see, I feel the opposite. I think it would be immoral to have people around Him for eternity who want nothing to do with Him whatsoever.

He's the one that made them in the first place, so that's his fault.

Again, it's sick and twisted. He creates everything, including people that don't believe in him, apparently so he can make them suffer eternally. That's a whole new level of sick and twisted from anything humans could achieve.

With that said, my question is still unanswered:

Does God's existence depend on human definitions or standards of "Moral"?

In this case yes. Since the Christian God isn't proven and the existence of him/her/it is an opinion, not a fact anyway, if the fear-based "teachings" of Christianity don't offer morals that we like as individuals, or even make sense, then of course we can discard the notion of that God based on that.


You must believe in Satan, but you don't worship him do you? Why not? Because you must have some sense of morality separate from religion, that makes you see what God offers as favorable and what Satan offers as unfavorable. But the nonsense part comes in when you realize that God must have made both of them.

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Man doesn't = God. God is God, man is man. I'd argue that without a moral authority you have no rational basis for even arguing something moral or immoral.

If God has more moral authority than I then let him prove it by refuting my claim.
After all, he said that man = God.
He nor you can have it both ways.
You can stay on your knees with your head up his ass. I stand and have move on thank you very much.
Can you hear me in there?
Are you less intelligent than A & E?

Regards
DL

Relax junior, your sly remarks fall off me like water on a ducks back. We are not going to play shifting the burden of proof. The Bible never says man = God. man is created beings, God is the Creator.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
man is created beings, God is the Creator.

So why does he create men who won't believe in him, just to torture them?

Originally posted by bogomil
Re NOTurTypical

You wrote:

["So God is limited by human definitions of morality?

That's pretty arrogant."]


As my recent response to you clearly indicated, the arrogance is on your side. Any definition of 'limits' of 'god' (from whatever direction they come), are secondary to your subjective claims of such a 'god' actually existing in any specific way.

I can postulate 'god' as the man in the moon, invent all kind of fables and doctrines around him, and when opposed I can claim to the opposition: "You bear the burden of proof", as you do now.

Try to get around to co-sensus forms of argumentation (unless you just want to preach); stating your basis, justify your methodology, learn general semantics and logics, get an idea about science. Your 'general rhetorics' approach is just so many words.

Try to find a tangible point (if you have any apart from your almost solipsistic subjectivism) and stay with it. Any amount of non-sense can be send out, pretending to be the real thing.

edit on 13-1-2011 by bogomil because: spelling

Arrogant?

That is Biblical as well as logical is it not.

Do the equation. Math does not lie.

If A & E became as Gods, knowing good and evil. having God's moral sense IOW, then-----

Moral man = moral God
Moral God = moral man
It is not Moral man = moral God +
This is not arrogance it is fact according to scripture.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Man doesn't = God. God is God, man is man. I'd argue that without a moral authority you have no rational basis for even arguing something moral or immoral.

If God has more moral authority than I then let him prove it by refuting my claim.
After all, he said that man = God.
He nor you can have it both ways.
You can stay on your knees with your head up his ass. I stand and have move on thank you very much.
Can you hear me in there?
Are you less intelligent than A & E?

Regards
DL

Relax junior, your sly remarks fall off me like water on a ducks back. We are not going to play shifting the burden of proof. The Bible never says man = God. man is created beings, God is the Creator.

A man after my own heart. Now if you can only learn.

Ye are Gods.-----Jesus.

Well, there's one way to settle this, and that is, let's hear it from Yahweh himself. Today, brothers and sisters, we open the Good Book to Genesis chapter 3, verse 22:
22. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
I think in 3:22 God spells it out loud: yes, the snake had told the truth. Yes, in eating from that tree humans had become like God, by being able to tell good from evil.

I mean, hey, if you can't trust the LORD himself about it, who can you trust, eh?

Now the question for you is, are you ready to become an adult?
Here is how it is done.
Do not get me wrong here. I am a religionist like yourself and have no desire to kill your faith or your seeking God. I just want to show you my path I followed to apotheosis.
I actually found this link much later.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
man is created beings, God is the Creator.

So why does he create men who won't believe in him, just to torture them?

If I may add to this question.

I find it quite strange that man has evolved his thinking to where we try to recognize that within the human common, all men should be given the status of being equal.
We do this with charity and forgiveness even as we recognize that in reality, thanks to sickness and disease, we are not really all born equal. We do in a sense say that all souls are equal.
God though, by having an elect, creates souls unequal.

Any thoughts as to why mans morals and standards have exceeded God's?

Could it be because people of God have not allowed him to evolve and they prefer the old tribal ways of divisiveness instead of inclusion?

Do those believers love to hate so much that they cannot let the us and them become the us only?

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


Gen 3:22 happens to be one of my favorite versus, but in the context of the rest of the creation story and of course the Bible as a whole, man only "thinks" at that point he has become like God the creator.

Remember also the slip of the tongue, or better yet "lie" which was told to Eve and by whom and where he had fallen from.

Humans were more so godlike before the fall... (God "created" man "in his own image") this came before the fall of man...

now all have freewill and the choice to choose "life"

this was the best part though...

Gen 3:19

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

for all of the knowledge and wisdom one peruses takes us further from the truth that is life. If one does not learn how to be a kid again... one may not have the slightest chance of standing with God after the body returns to the dust.

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Humans were more so godlike before the fall... (God "created" man "in his own image") this came before the fall of man...

Do you think this statement is just a part of mans pride in himself. Apparently we are the universal embodiment of the untimate created (or evolved) life form, yet i can think of 100 species that are far more beautful then humans.

This isn't even considering any life form we haven't discovered.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Humans were more so godlike before the fall... (God "created" man "in his own image") this came before the fall of man...

Do you think this statement is just a part of mans pride in himself. Apparently we are the universal embodiment of the untimate created (or evolved) life form, yet i can think of 100 species that are far more beautful then humans.

This isn't even considering any life form we haven't discovered.

but humans do something, by our comprehension anyway, that other species do not do...

Knowledge has advanced us and evolved us to the point where most of the humans on this planet could not survive without technology even to keep us clothed and warm. The majority of people could not make it more than 2 weeks in the Outback or in the wilderness of Alaska if one was just dropped off there out of the blue and without assistance.

Our ancestors needed no clothes to keep them warm, our bodies were covered in hair at this point and we might just well have been closer to the truth of life and of love... for if we did not know love even when we were cavemen we would have not made it... Humans need and have always needed a special kind of attention to make it from birth, unlike alot of animals which are born walking and others which fend for themselves from the womb... Humans require nurturing to make it.

The biggest mistake one can make is to elevate themselves to godlike status, this has been proven and documented through history... for we can not all be gods now can we ? that would start more wars than one could even imagine (which is already happening in this universe, the net) there is only one true God and it just might be better we do not "see" him ! but that is not to say one can not "know" him.

btw: you did know all dogs go to heaven... didn't you

reply to post by Greatest I am


WOW, haha, you read that verse in Genesis to mean God is stating men became God???

He clearly says we became like Him in ONE aspect, knowing good from evil. That's it, nothing more, nothing less.

No wonder your Biblical literacy and scholarship is absurdly inadequate.

I'll leave it right here and not even get into the Greek, you haven't even grasped the English rendering of the text yet.

Do not get me wrong here. I am a religionist like yourself...

Stop right there. You may be a 'religionist', I most certainly am NOT. I hate religion, with the Christian form being the most repulsive. I believe in "redemption", the exact opposite of man-made religions.

Check out the video in my sig titled "Do You Hate Religion as Much as I Do?" if you're ignorant to the difference between the two terms.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


but nothing can be excluded though... (except Jediism)

is religion not a step to redemption ?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I still don't understand why you think your God would be loving and forgiving and then at the same time create people that won't believe in his just so they'll be sent to Hell to be tortured forever.

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

but nothing can be excluded though... (except Jediism)

is religion not a step to redemption ?

Have you watched my sig? The two terms are polar opposite.

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I still don't understand why you think your God would be loving and forgiving and then at the same time create people that won't believe in his just so they'll be sent to Hell to be tortured forever.

Because my God entered into human history and freely gave His sinless life in exchange for my sin. I'm one of those "Yes, Lord, I'm a sinner please help me." guys. I'm just one beggar showing another beggar where to find bread. God is love. And if you don't understand Genesis 6 and who the Rephaim were you'll never understand why God commanded genocide in the OT.

And it's coming again. Thankfully through the death of His Son, I'm reconciled to Him. God is love. His commandments were never to be broken. Satan is to blame for the fall, not God judging because of it. God knows beforehand which choice you'll choose. He's outside the space time dimension, He sees the end from the beginning. The master plan of God's for eternity is to find a "bride" for His Son, Jesus Christ.

That's why He gave you free will. To choose to love Him, follow His Word.

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Gen 3:22 happens to be one of my favorite versus, but in the context of the rest of the creation story and of course the Bible as a whole, man only "thinks" at that point he has become like God the creator.

Remember also the slip of the tongue, or better yet "lie" which was told to Eve and by whom and where he had fallen from.

Humans were more so godlike before the fall... (God "created" man "in his own image") this came before the fall of man...

now all have freewill and the choice to choose "life"

edit on 1/14/2011 by Cosmic.Artifact because: (no reason given)

There is so much wrong with your thinking that I do not know where to start.

Your whole theology is based on magic and miracles and talking animals.
If that is true then how in hell can I speak of true things with you from my, to me, more real world where snakes do not talk and water walking immortal Gods cannot die.

I have to start by showing you that the imaginary snake did not lie.
If you can, please show where it did lie?
I see it as giving A & E information that God had omitted. A & E did not know there eyes would be opened and be as God's till the snake told them.

So if you like, try to show where the snake lied or where God gave A & E all the facts.

You will also know that the Jews and Hebrews who wrote the O T never took their scriptures literally and were quite surprised when years later, Christians started to.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
this was the best part though...

Gen 3:19

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

for all of the knowledge and wisdom one peruses takes us further from the truth that is life. If one does not learn how to be a kid again... one may not have the slightest chance of standing with God after the body returns to the dust.

edit on 1/14/2011 by Cosmic.Artifact because: (no reason given)

Strange.

Most want to grow up but you want to be a kid again.

Oh well.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Humans were more so godlike before the fall... (God "created" man "in his own image") this came before the fall of man...

Do you think this statement is just a part of mans pride in himself. Apparently we are the universal embodiment of the untimate created (or evolved) life form, yet i can think of 100 species that are far more beautful then humans.

This isn't even considering any life form we haven't discovered.

I think it quite natural.

The God of ants is an ant.
The God of lions is a lion.
The God of man should be a man. not some alien super absentee God.
Who but a man can relate to the will of God.
There is only man.
Our first God was a man and our last shall be as well.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
reply to
The biggest mistake one can make is to elevate themselves to godlike status, this has been proven and documented through history... for we can not all be gods now can we ? "know" him.

btw: you did know all dogs go to heaven... didn't you

edit on 1/14/2011 by Cosmic.Artifact because: (no reason given)

Does that mean that this is poor advice from a book that says we are to emulate God and that the churches are wrong in helping us develop our moral sense to do just that?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Further, if we all get to heaven, are we to bunk with Hitler and Stalin?

Regards
DL