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Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.

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posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


this world is imperfect, you can not live perfectly in an imperfect world even if you isolate yourself in the wilderness away from any imperfection one may perceive.

instead one must go into the world and lead or teach by example.

I am not content with being a God nor anything near perfect, yet I admire the perfection of love...


edit on 1/16/2011 by Cosmic.Artifact because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 07:25 PM
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Originally posted by Heatrae
This is my first post on this thread, and I hope DL, the OP reads it. I have debated the likes of DL many a time on other forums, and the modus-operandi is almost always the same:

First... Athiest / Agnostic OP starts a thread about Hell and tries to stoke a response from Christians.


thank you friend for the heads-up...

I like being here, but am such a noob... to claim a "WIN" of me is not much a prize really.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 08:33 PM
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Eternity is quite a long time and I usually ask something about the immorality of infinite torture for a finite sin but let'd deal with what you said instead.

Punishment is usually given to change thoughts or actions and cause someone to repent so that they do not do some action or think in a certain way. Once rehabilitated, to continue punishing for no reason other than the punishment itself is pointless and could be seen as just cruelty.

You said punishment is forever.
It would be pointless then would it not because, let's face it, if a sinner has not repented after burning for a few millionb years, he is not going to repent or change his thinking about his sin.

What is the value then of the torture if not just done out of cruelty?
If no result or change will happen for the soul evenwith infinite torture, would the moral thing to do not be to just kill the soul.

Regards
DL


DL- Your train of thought has my respect. I wrestled for a number of years with some of the same questions, such as is Hell forever, if so. why does one need to be in that horrible place for eternity? I sincerely sought answers and in due time what I learned helped me understand a little more about this, although i don't pretend to have all the answers.

You mentioned "infinite torture for a finite sin" you are on the right track with that. What I learned was that when we, as finite humans, commit a sin against God, who is infinite, we have an infinite , not finite, debt to repay. When Christ Jesus died for our sins, he repaid, by virtue of his infinite nature as the son of God, our sin debt in full. If a person rejects Christ as his Lord and savior, he, by default, has to pay for his own sin debt.

That is why it lasts forever, because a finite being can't pay an infinite debt. If he could, I suppose there would be a point in time where his soul would simply be "annhiliated" ( See doctrine of annhilation)

Hell is not about correction or repentance, it is about wrath. Many like to talk about the love of God, which is easy to talk about, but they like to skip over the wrathful God part. Mercy, Grace and Forgiveness are only available on this side. Once we die, the book is closed and our chances to repent are over. Thats why it says in the Bible "NOW is the day of salvation" and "Seek the Lord why he may be found"

This may sound cruel to some, but it depends on how you look at it. From what I've learned, nobody should be able to go to Heaven, our default destination is Hell, for all have sinned... Save for those that place their complete trust in the finished work of Christ.

See the parable Jesus taught in Matthew 18 : 23-35 about the unforgiving servant who was put in the prison and tortured by the master until he repaid the (unrepayable sum) in full.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 11:00 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 



You can shrug off my so called straw man if you like but it is based on scripture.


No, it's based on ignorant conjecture. I refuse to acknowledge your straw man. Since you're fond of Proverbs:


Proverbs 26:4 ~ "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him."



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 05:25 AM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.

At the end of the day, with a God who hides, the only good way to ascertain if he would be real or not is by his morality. This assumes that having a sense of morality is good and not having it is not and that a God would be good.

The pivotal question for God’s existence is;---- would a good God create a place like hell?

The definition of hell here is the one of eternal fire and torture with no chance of reprieve.
IOW. The traditional hell

To help me determine if there was a real Bible God or not, I asked and answered a few simple question for myself.

1. Is it morals and good justice for a soul to be able to sin for a finite time and then have to suffer torture for infinity?

2. Is it good morals and justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?

Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.

3. Is it good morals and justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

4. Is it good morals and justice to keep a soul alive in hell instead of killing it for mercies sake?

I answered no to all of the above and determined that there is no way in hell that a hell would be a moral construct and that a good God would not create such a place. If hell exists then Bible God cannot if he is a good God.

If you answered no, as I did, then the existence of Bible God also gives a no answer.

If you answered yes to any of the above then let us examine your reasons for thinking that God would create this, to you, moral construct called hell.

Please justify your yes and show what I am to give a rebuttal to and let us try to reason together. This is mostly impossible from what I have seen and experienced but having kept this O P fairly simple, I am hopping that we can.


Regards
DL


PS. The next post is to give you a glimpse of what others think of some of these issues and to stimulate thought. There is quite a bit of it and it is there for reference only.

I am taking the 3rd alternative, as James Tiberius Kirk would always do! I am a Christian Universalist, and we believe that Hell is not eternal, and its purpose is corrective.
William Barclay explains Christian Universalism
Vicky



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact

Originally posted by Greatest I am
I use our because I see myself as part of a demographic common


since I do not know you that well, can you please clear up for me with a clear statement on which demographic this is please... (denomination, sect, group, religion, or other)


those with your mind set


I am quite sorry, maybe you do not understand my mind-set... my mind-set is that of an individual person, my thoughts are unique and my own creation.

Therefore (I am) my own person, and I live under my God...


I consider myself a member of the world demographic common. A world citizen.
All of mankind is my brother.
All the classes that you mention show that you have a tribal mentality and perhaps short sighted in your view. Most are.

This Bishop speaks to this.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

How can your thoughts be your own and unique while you live under a God?
What you describe is someone who has placed himself above God.
To live under God means accepting his rules. You are not allowed to have unique rules.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 11:27 AM
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reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact
 


You admit that our destiny is to be sons of God.

Are you a parent? Do you want your children to always be below you somewhere or do you want then to be better than yourself?

Why then do you think your heavenly father would want anything less for his children?

A & E are our archetypal examples to emulate. They became as Gods and so can you if you open your mind.

Scripture urges you to be as perfect as God. You will never reach him if you place yourself below him somewhere.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


this world is imperfect, you can not live perfectly in an imperfect world even if you isolate yourself in the wilderness away from any imperfection one may perceive.

instead one must go into the world and lead or teach by example.

I am not content with being a God nor anything near perfect, yet I admire the perfection of love...


edit on 1/16/2011 by Cosmic.Artifact because: (no reason given)


When Darwin found the Galapagos Islands, do you think he found an imperfect environment and nature or do you think he found a perfectly evolving system?

If imperfect, what was imperfect?
If perfect, what makes you think the evolving perfection of the world stopped at that border?

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 11:49 AM
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reply to post by Heatrae
 


Thanks for changing your initial attack to one of respect.

I see though that you are mired in a doctrin of hate and wrath over love, mercy and a God who loses some of the souls he created,
To maintain that view, you must ignore scripture like this one of many examples.

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Hell would obviously not be good and would therefore not be something a good God would use.

I will not likely be able to convert you to a better way of thought so I will let this loving preacher try.

Let me know your thoughts.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 11:54 AM
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reply to post by Vicky32
 


Thanks for this. The universalist creed has cast off the tribalism that has shackled Christian thinking for a long time now and would be much closer to the truth of things than Christianity with their us and them attitude of hate for the others.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by freedish
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



God created hell for His angels and not for us. He does not wish ANYONE to go there. Also I'm still not convinced hell is eternal torture, because I can't find anywhere that the bible says that. Also how can hell be eternal if the only way to eternal life is Jesus? It's not eternal life in heaven or hell. It's eternal life with Jesus or nothing. In revelation it says that death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire and dies a second death. How can something eternal die? I'm not fully convinced when people say that some will burn in hell for eternity. I don't think a loving God would do that.




Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking)
epart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Note the word eternal.

I tried to specify the eternal place of suffering because scripture does and it is the one accepted by the majority from what I can tell.

If you want to soften the blow and deny the quote above then show how you think a Hitler would be punished.

My view is that we all end in heaven but most do not like that because of their love of hate and they demand retribution against Hitlers and Stalins.

Regards
DL



Hello,

Maybe if people STOPPED demanding retribution or just stopped demanding in general and started giving these evil figures would stop manifesting? Is it plausible that humanity brings the fires of hell on themselves through the agency of myopic and self-centered thinking?

Getting back on point, I think the idea of an eternal hell is accompanied with a substance called "Brimestone" an incense used for purification. This implies that any "Hell" is rehabilitating. At the very least imprisonment there could only be finite, say the span of a lifetime?

Thanks
edit on 18-1-2011 by Abovo because: bad post



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
How can your thoughts be your own and unique while you live under a God?

my thoughts are my own, even though I do still live under the rule of law and love, truth and justice, though we have freewill to create and think and be individuals given these rules. We have all types of artists, philosophers, musicians, novelist, ect, that all live or have lived by these rules but still create in a type of celebration and expression to glorify this God of love and truth.


What you describe is someone who has placed himself above God.

again I think you have the wrong idea and interpretation of the word of "book of wisdom" as you would call it and as I have also stated above.


To live under God means accepting his rules. You are not allowed to have unique rules.

to live under God means to accept his rules... it does not mean one can not still be creative, philosophical, musical or others. It simply means there are rules and ones which are written in stone and one can not change them, one only get to find joy in playing within these said rules... A person can even make a game like "chess" and define the rules of the board but how does this even imply that one can change the rules written in stone ?



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact
 


You admit that our destiny is to be sons of God.


your opening is flawed and with a position of intent...

being you did not quote my actual reply concerning your statement of my supposed admittance to destiny, here it is in case you did or do not understand my statement to you.


means to be like, do and try to act as, the son of God did... nothing more.


in nowhere did I mention destiny, therefore I will determine on my ride home weather to address or even read the rest of your reply, or better yet... opening assumptive statement.


edit on 1/18/2011 by Cosmic.Artifact because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
When Darwin found the Galapagos Islands, do you think he found an imperfect environment and nature or do you think he found a perfectly evolving system?

If imperfect, what was imperfect?
If perfect, what makes you think the evolving perfection of the world stopped at that border?

Regards
DL


the philosophy does not really interest me here... I will leave this for someone else to address, I would rather tackle established historical and philosophical debates before I make assumptions about what I feel Darwin felt he perceived.

the Galapagos is a unique and strange place indeed...



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
reply to post by Vicky32
 


Thanks for this. The universalist creed has cast off the tribalism that has shackled Christian thinking


the universalist creed has cast off guidance in favor of thinking themselves to be perfect, but no human is...



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 05:11 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
What you describe is someone who has placed himself above God.
Regards
DL

what you describe as the universalist creed to another poster describes and proves to point, the universalist creed...

the universalist place themselves above, not even hoping to be equal or that thereof...

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Thanks for this. The universalist creed has cast off the tribalism that has shackled Christian thinking for a long time now and would be much closer to the truth of things

I do not feel the need for the definition of universalism to be any clearer, unless that is you are not speaking for a majority of universalist ? and before I have even looked up he definition...



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 05:22 PM
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Unitarian Universalism: (I had a class reunion with a teacher who was one of these)


(II Timothy 3:1-7)

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.

www.contenderministries.org...



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
reply to post by Vicky32
 


Thanks for this. The universalist creed has cast off the tribalism that has shackled Christian thinking for a long time now and would be much closer to the truth of things than Christianity with their us and them attitude of hate for the others.

Regards
DL

Yes, I was utterly thrilled to discover it, from a book by Barclay in our church library!

Vicky



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 07:48 PM
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Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact

Originally posted by Greatest I am
What you describe is someone who has placed himself above God.
Regards
DL

what you describe as the universalist creed to another poster describes and proves to point, the universalist creed...

the universalist place themselves above, not even hoping to be equal or that thereof...

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Thanks for this. The universalist creed has cast off the tribalism that has shackled Christian thinking for a long time now and would be much closer to the truth of things

I do not feel the need for the definition of universalism to be any clearer, unless that is you are not speaking for a majority of universalist ? and before I have even looked up the definition...


I want to make it very clear that what I am advocating is Christian Universalism (absolutely not Unitarianism, which afaik is the next best thing to the abomination I've heard of, called "Christian atheism")! (Please follow the link.) It's not a matter of universalists putting themselves above God! In fact, it's not a 'free ride', or 'cheap grace' or anything of the sort. It's very expensive to God, and to those who wilfully reject Him - they have to be taught, and changed and cleansed.
I am finding some more links, and I really urge you to read them. George MacDonald, CS Lewis' mentor wrote of it in the 19th century, and MacDonald makes it very plain that it's not a free ride, and the CUs don't want to make themselves equal to God, much less above...
First article
An interesting perspective on judgement
Third article
Vicky
edit on 18/1/11 by Vicky32 because: To add something... and emphasise something else



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by Vicky32
I want to make it very clear that what I am advocating is


advocation anything in serious matters such as this, including Atheism is frowned upon...

I feel one can advocate their favorite band or historical painting, but when it comes to heartfelt beliefs, both sides (theist and atheist) are accused of doing it.

here I see mainly theists in defense and atheists on the offense, but that is just by my perception... still I see no one trying to convince anyone of belief in a Christian (or other) deity.

I will read through your post and links, I just wanted you to know how I respond to initial movements, I tell everyone openly about this. This is why I am responding to your opening...




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