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Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.

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posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 01:06 PM
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Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.

At the end of the day, with a God who hides, the only good way to ascertain if he would be real or not is by his morality. This assumes that having a sense of morality is good and not having it is not and that a God would be good.

The pivotal question for God’s existence is;---- would a good God create a place like hell?

The definition of hell here is the one of eternal fire and torture with no chance of reprieve.
IOW. The traditional hell

To help me determine if there was a real Bible God or not, I asked and answered a few simple question for myself.

1. Is it morals and good justice for a soul to be able to sin for a finite time and then have to suffer torture for infinity?

2. Is it good morals and justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?

Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.

3. Is it good morals and justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

4. Is it good morals and justice to keep a soul alive in hell instead of killing it for mercies sake?

I answered no to all of the above and determined that there is no way in hell that a hell would be a moral construct and that a good God would not create such a place. If hell exists then Bible God cannot if he is a good God.

If you answered no, as I did, then the existence of Bible God also gives a no answer.

If you answered yes to any of the above then let us examine your reasons for thinking that God would create this, to you, moral construct called hell.

Please justify your yes and show what I am to give a rebuttal to and let us try to reason together. This is mostly impossible from what I have seen and experienced but having kept this O P fairly simple, I am hopping that we can.


Regards
DL


PS. The next post is to give you a glimpse of what others think of some of these issues and to stimulate thought. There is quite a bit of it and it is there for reference only.




posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 01:07 PM
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On hell.

Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...


Is God good?

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...


Satan’s history.

www.religioustolerance.org...

www.religioustolerance.org...

abcnews.go.com... -----About ½ way down the page.




O T, N T, Jesus and hell.

www.youtube.com.../u/2/k88ntaUXP2c


What the Bible says.

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

By any definition, sendind souls to hell is overcoming evil with evil and hell in this sense is not Biblical.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 01:21 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 



God created hell for His angels and not for us. He does not wish ANYONE to go there. Also I'm still not convinced hell is eternal torture, because I can't find anywhere that the bible says that. Also how can hell be eternal if the only way to eternal life is Jesus? It's not eternal life in heaven or hell. It's eternal life with Jesus or nothing. In revelation it says that death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire and dies a second death. How can something eternal die? I'm not fully convinced when people say that some will burn in hell for eternity. I don't think a loving God would do that.



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 01:27 PM
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putting my philosophical and theological cap on for a few minutes...


God is the all forgiving. By this theory, a person burning in a pit of hell can be saved simply by saying "sorry". there is no asterisk by the word all. therefore, all means alive, dead, etc.

If God cannot forgive a person in hell and save them, then he has limitations...making him not omnipotent. If he can forgive but chooses not to for a person in hell, he is then a liar...and a liar is a sinner, and therefore God is not a deity as described.

If God can and will forgive...being all forgiving, all merciful, then hell doesn't exist overall..except for purposefully chosen and continued choosing of remaining in hell

A interesting quote comes to mind. Better to rule in hell, than serve in heaven. This would suggest that even Lucifer could go back to serving God in heaven if he chooses...but for now, he chooses to rule hell.

Just some sort of theological food for thought...to summerise..if there is an inescapable hell, then either God is limited, or a liar.
edit on 4-1-2011 by SaturnFX because: speelingz



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX
Just some sort of theological food for thought...to summerise..if there is an inescapable hell, then either God is limited, or a liar.


Beyond that, as an omniscient being, he would know whether or not one would go to hell before said person was even born. Kind of negating the whole idea of free will. In this context, god would have created said system knowing exactly who will or will not be sent there. thus lending credibility to the idea that this hell would have a capacity limit which is already known. Custom made for your pain!



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by freedish
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



God created hell for His angels and not for us. He does not wish ANYONE to go there. Also I'm still not convinced hell is eternal torture, because I can't find anywhere that the bible says that. Also how can hell be eternal if the only way to eternal life is Jesus? It's not eternal life in heaven or hell. It's eternal life with Jesus or nothing. In revelation it says that death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire and dies a second death. How can something eternal die? I'm not fully convinced when people say that some will burn in hell for eternity. I don't think a loving God would do that.


Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking)
epart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Note the word eternal.

I tried to specify the eternal place of suffering because scripture does and it is the one accepted by the majority from what I can tell.

If you want to soften the blow and deny the quote above then show how you think a Hitler would be punished.

My view is that we all end in heaven but most do not like that because of their love of hate and they demand retribution against Hitlers and Stalins.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX
putting my philosophical and theological cap on for a few minutes...


God is the all forgiving. By this theory, a person burning in a pit of hell can be saved simply by saying "sorry". there is no asterisk by the word all. therefore, all means alive, dead, etc.

If God cannot forgive a person in hell and save them, then he has limitations...making him not omnipotent. If he can forgive but chooses not to for a person in hell, he is then a liar...and a liar is a sinner, and therefore God is not a deity as described.

If God can and will forgive...being all forgiving, all merciful, then hell doesn't exist overall..except for purposefully chosen and continued choosing of remaining in hell

A interesting quote comes to mind. Better to rule in hell, than serve in heaven. This would suggest that even Lucifer could go back to serving God in heaven if he chooses...but for now, he chooses to rule hell.

Just some sort of theological food for thought...to summerise..if there is an inescapable hell, then either God is limited, or a liar.
edit on 4-1-2011 by SaturnFX because: speelingz


I agree. Most Christians will not.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


God is many things to many people. Many who do not believe in hell, believe in a god.



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 02:06 PM
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Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


God is many things to many people. Many who do not believe in hell, believe in a god.


Even people who claim to subscribe to the same belief system will all have different perspectives and conceptualizations of the same issue. whether or not they realize it is a different matter. But its easier to hit a stationary target, no?



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


God is many things to many people. Many who do not believe in hell, believe in a god.


Sure but then how do they say that sinners get their just rewards and if all get the same reward, what is the point of enduring a hardship by always trying to do the right thing ?

People seem to hate my idea that we all get to heaven because they want retribution way to much.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
People seem to hate my idea that we all get to heaven because they want retribution way to much.


You should be aware of the... vague nature of statements like that. considering that such a statement would also include yourself. Unless, of course, you are not a person. If that is the case, carry on



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking)
epart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Note the word eternal.

I tried to specify the eternal place of suffering because scripture does and it is the one accepted by the majority from what I can tell.

If you want to soften the blow and deny the quote above then show how you think a Hitler would be punished.

My view is that we all end in heaven but most do not like that because of their love of hate and they demand retribution against Hitlers and Stalins.

Regards
DL


Actually, that also doesn't even say its the eternal place for angels or devils...the fires are eternal...and it was prepared for em...but does it say "for all time"

and I guess that brings me back to a original point...what if some fallen angel asked God for forgivness...is God all forgiving, all merciful, or are there alot of contingencies...

For the infallible book of answers...it sure does leave alot of questions hanging about some pretty fundamental aspects. I think they need to do a part 3 or 4 (4 if you think the koran is part 3)



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 02:17 PM
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"For the infallible book of answers"

Oops. I though you were referring to me with that phrase since there is no other.

Except for the rest of you guys here.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 02:29 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Answers are found in all different places, and often in the strangest places. No one knows it all, but some can grasp the first step most never ever percieve at any moment in there lifes.

Thats why all religions have real truths, but no one religion has any total answer for anyone really. Plus its great that truths for one, and ones life has no bearing on another, as experience means alot to learning truths.



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX
For the infallible book of answers...


The bible itself says it is not the "source" and that answers can be found elsewhere. Its organized religion and atheism that does that.

bible.cc...
bible.cc...

And from another perspective, if one views that the bible is trying to teach us that God is all things, and all that is, the following verses, normally used for proving inerrancy (either for or against it), can be taken in a different light.

bible.cc...
bible.cc...
bible.cc...
bible.cc... bible.cc... (couldnt figure out how to get them both on the same link)

And so on and so forth. Either way, the only ones to say the bible is inerrant (either for or against) are organized religion and atheists. The bible itself does not claim it is exclusively the word of god, it actually says something quite different if one can actually look at it from a different perspective (which everyone does anyway). What it does say is that the word of god itself is inerrant, and if taken into a pantheistic context (which the bible can easily be understood from), then it would simply be a given that all things, including the bible, are the inerrant word of god.

That was quite interesting, havent really looked into the bible in a.. long time.

And just a note, im not too vested in such an argument, as i heard from someone once "I do not have any horses in this race." Im just in a "pot-stirrer" mood



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by freedish
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



God created hell for His angels and not for us. He does not wish ANYONE to go there. Also I'm still not convinced hell is eternal torture, because I can't find anywhere that the bible says that. Also how can hell be eternal if the only way to eternal life is Jesus? It's not eternal life in heaven or hell. It's eternal life with Jesus or nothing. In revelation it says that death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire and dies a second death. How can something eternal die? I'm not fully convinced when people say that some will burn in hell for eternity. I don't think a loving God would do that.


Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking)
epart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Note the word eternal.

I tried to specify the eternal place of suffering because scripture does and it is the one accepted by the majority from what I can tell.

If you want to soften the blow and deny the quote above then show how you think a Hitler would be punished.

My view is that we all end in heaven but most do not like that because of their love of hate and they demand retribution against Hitlers and Stalins.

Regards
DL


This is the same eternal fire used when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jude 1:7
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Let me ask you, is there still fire there today burning where Sodom and Gomorrah was? No. That's because 'Eternal fire' isn't describing the length of the fire, but the intensity of the fire. That's why Sodom and Gomorrah was never rebuilt, and never will be.
edit on 4-1-2011 by freedish because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 08:35 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Great post and I agree 100%.

The fear of hell keeps fundamentalist Christians in line like no other.

And at the same time it was this same questioning of the morality of hell, that made me look away from Christianity to other belief systems and philosophies in the first place. I cannot reconcile the idea of a loving, all-powered being that governs the universe, that will also either send you to hell or allow you to go to hell indefinitely just because you don't believe in him. I've heard all the semantic arguments around this too and none of them make the situation any more sensible to me. It's nothing but a paradigm of fear, either "go with us or be punished forever when you die."



posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 03:58 AM
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I am sorry I don't follow the logic. This is what I got
The existence of god hinges on your understanding of hell.

1.If hell is illogical then God does not exist?
2. Or if God is illogical hell can not exist?
3.If you do bad you will damed to illogical?
4. Or is this about the rest of your revelation about how you understand of all human thought and you are the new messiah? If so, I here some people are looking for you.

No offense please but I am most confused????



posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 08:08 AM
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Now for another type of language. This will explain my confusion. What would the purpose of a debate be when you want to debate what you believe to be completely false. That it's not false. Again I remain confused?



posted on Jan, 8 2011 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by freedish

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by freedish
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



God created hell for His angels and not for us. He does not wish ANYONE to go there. Also I'm still not convinced hell is eternal torture, because I can't find anywhere that the bible says that. Also how can hell be eternal if the only way to eternal life is Jesus? It's not eternal life in heaven or hell. It's eternal life with Jesus or nothing. In revelation it says that death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire and dies a second death. How can something eternal die? I'm not fully convinced when people say that some will burn in hell for eternity. I don't think a loving God would do that.


Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking)
epart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Note the word eternal.

I tried to specify the eternal place of suffering because scripture does and it is the one accepted by the majority from what I can tell.

If you want to soften the blow and deny the quote above then show how you think a Hitler would be punished.

My view is that we all end in heaven but most do not like that because of their love of hate and they demand retribution against Hitlers and Stalins.

Regards
DL


This is the same eternal fire used when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jude 1:7
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Let me ask you, is there still fire there today burning where Sodom and Gomorrah was? No. That's because 'Eternal fire' isn't describing the length of the fire, but the intensity of the fire. That's why Sodom and Gomorrah was never rebuilt, and never will be.
edit on 4-1-2011 by freedish because: (no reason given)


Thanks for reminding us of one of God's immoral acts against mankind.

His murders and insanity should always be at the forefront of our minds when wondering if we should follow you immoral genocidal maniac.

Regards
DL



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