Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Great post and I agree 100%.

The fear of hell keeps fundamentalist Christians in line like no other.

And at the same time it was this same questioning of the morality of hell, that made me look away from Christianity to other belief systems and philosophies in the first place. I cannot reconcile the idea of a loving, all-powered being that governs the universe, that will also either send you to hell or allow you to go to hell indefinitely just because you don't believe in him. I've heard all the semantic arguments around this too and none of them make the situation any more sensible to me. It's nothing but a paradigm of fear, either "go with us or be punished forever when you die."

Always nice to find a good mind.

Fight on friend. Theist stupidity will eventually fall.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Ubeen
I am sorry I don't follow the logic. This is what I got
The existence of god hinges on your understanding of hell.

1.If hell is illogical then God does not exist?
2. Or if God is illogical hell can not exist?
3.If you do bad you will damed to illogical?
4. Or is this about the rest of your revelation about how you understand of all human thought and you are the new messiah? If so, I here some people are looking for you.

No offense please but I am most confused????

My reply to your--

1 ----- If God exists he would be a moral God and a moral God would not need or want an immoral construct like hell.

2 ----- See my 1

3 ----- Huh? You somehow fixated on logic instead of the moral question.

4 ----- Most theists are delusional and they are the ones who need help.

To your second post and why I discuss things I do not believe in. Simple.
I am my brothers keeper and when I see him thinking poorly, I feel a responsibility to help him think right and morally.
Not to destroy his faith. I am a religionist. I seek to send his faith to a better and more moral God.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

1. Is it morals and good justice for a soul to be able to sin for a finite time and then have to suffer torture for infinity?

No it is not moral. I think many preachers jump to conclusion when they say you will burn in hell forever. They are judging others based off of uncertainty. I wouldn't say sinners would burn because that in itself would be a lie on my part. Will the soul be tortured? My belief indicates that it will not. I think the Earth was built so our souls can experience, learn, and grow. We are children in this world and when we graduate we will inherit the kingdom.

From what I understand, again not certain, in the end you will meet with God and you will be shown your whole life. Everything will be unveiled and you will feel every emotion that you made others feel. In example, if you stole you will watch yourself stealing and the emotions felt by the other side.

Will you burn in hell? I think God knows when he created the Earth that humanity will not be perfect. Otherwise we would be born perfect beings. We must try out best to learn from our mistakes.

2. Is it good morals and justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?

Again we are uncertain what lies beyond the veil of life. Hitler or Stalin might not be burning in hell after all. For all we know the soul could be purified after death and their process on Earth starts all over again until they graduate.

3. Is it good morals and justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

No it is not. I think hell could be a re-purification of the soul. I don't think people will spend an eternity in hell. I think people who don't want to repent will return to the Earth to relive their lives and start over again until they learn what they came here to learn.

4. Is it good morals and justice to keep a soul alive in hell instead of killing it for mercies sake?

I answered no to all of the above and determined that there is no way in hell that a hell would be a moral construct and that a good God would not create such a place. If hell exists then Bible God cannot if he is a good God.

You are absolutely right. I don't think God would want his creations to be suffering. If we were created in his image than he must feel the same emotions as us but on a greater scale. So even though you can't place your shoes on something that grand you can determine that he doesn't want to see us suffer. We go through enough on the Earth so why do we have to suffer again after we die?

If you answered no, as I did, then the existence of Bible God also gives a no answer.

If you answered yes to any of the above then let us examine your reasons for thinking that God would create this, to you, moral construct called hell.

Please justify your yes and show what I am to give a rebuttal to and let us try to reason together. This is mostly impossible from what I have seen and experienced but having kept this O P fairly simple, I am hopping that we can.

Regards
DL

PS. The next post is to give you a glimpse of what others think of some of these issues and to stimulate thought. There is quite a bit of it and it is there for reference only.

People who judge others and scare people to join religion are not actually doing themselves or the religion any good. You can read the bible and go to church a hundred times a day it still doesn't make you a good person. You are judged based on what is in your heart not what is around you.

I don't go to church nor read the Bible but I somehow feel close to God. I am a sinner and I know it but I still try my best to stop sinning. People who claim they don't sin, they might be right on the outside, but sinning is not a materialistic thing. If you seem perfect on the outside you will sin on the inside.

But you are right OP. I don't think God wants his creations to suffer. A hell might be to purify the soul until the soul can repent for the wrong doings. Once the soul repents than the process of healing can begin.

Originally posted by Equinox99

Originally posted by Greatest I am

1. Is it morals and good justice for a soul to be able to sin for a finite time and then have to suffer torture for infinity?

No it is not moral. I think many preachers jump to conclusion when they say you will burn in hell forever. They are judging others based off of uncertainty. I wouldn't say sinners would burn because that in itself would be a lie on my part. Will the soul be tortured? My belief indicates that it will not. I think the Earth was built so our souls can experience, learn, and grow. We are children in this world and when we graduate we will inherit the kingdom.

From what I understand, again not certain, in the end you will meet with God and you will be shown your whole life. Everything will be unveiled and you will feel every emotion that you made others feel. In example, if you stole you will watch yourself stealing and the emotions felt by the other side.

Will you burn in hell? I think God knows when he created the Earth that humanity will not be perfect. Otherwise we would be born perfect beings. We must try out best to learn from our mistakes.

2. Is it good morals and justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?

Again we are uncertain what lies beyond the veil of life. Hitler or Stalin might not be burning in hell after all. For all we know the soul could be purified after death and their process on Earth starts all over again until they graduate.

3. Is it good morals and justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

No it is not. I think hell could be a re-purification of the soul. I don't think people will spend an eternity in hell. I think people who don't want to repent will return to the Earth to relive their lives and start over again until they learn what they came here to learn.

4. Is it good morals and justice to keep a soul alive in hell instead of killing it for mercies sake?

I answered no to all of the above and determined that there is no way in hell that a hell would be a moral construct and that a good God would not create such a place. If hell exists then Bible God cannot if he is a good God.

You are absolutely right. I don't think God would want his creations to be suffering. If we were created in his image than he must feel the same emotions as us but on a greater scale. So even though you can't place your shoes on something that grand you can determine that he doesn't want to see us suffer. We go through enough on the Earth so why do we have to suffer again after we die?

If you answered no, as I did, then the existence of Bible God also gives a no answer.

If you answered yes to any of the above then let us examine your reasons for thinking that God would create this, to you, moral construct called hell.

Please justify your yes and show what I am to give a rebuttal to and let us try to reason together. This is mostly impossible from what I have seen and experienced but having kept this O P fairly simple, I am hopping that we can.

Regards
DL

PS. The next post is to give you a glimpse of what others think of some of these issues and to stimulate thought. There is quite a bit of it and it is there for reference only.

People who judge others and scare people to join religion are not actually doing themselves or the religion any good. You can read the bible and go to church a hundred times a day it still doesn't make you a good person. You are judged based on what is in your heart not what is around you.

I don't go to church nor read the Bible but I somehow feel close to God. I am a sinner and I know it but I still try my best to stop sinning. People who claim they don't sin, they might be right on the outside, but sinning is not a materialistic thing. If you seem perfect on the outside you will sin on the inside.

But you are right OP. I don't think God wants his creations to suffer. A hell might be to purify the soul until the soul can repent for the wrong doings. Once the soul repents than the process of healing can begin.

Right on bro... i'll star that

I wonder what people think the guide lines of sin are.... I know its defined in the bible but i'd like to hear other peoples perspective.


If you break one of the commandments are you doomed to hell?

Equinox99


Not badly said at all friend.

Let us hope theists who believe in hell heed your words.

One little thing. I do not read the Bible literally or indeed too seriously but it is still what I call a book of wisdom.

You indicated that God's emotions and feelings somehow surpass man's. You may have a point as we may not ever be able to know this as a fact but I would like to point out that scripture says that we became as god's through A & E. This indicates to me that we can and do match God's morals and emotions so to say we somehow remain inferior to him, would be false.

As children of God, we do meet his standards. IMO.

Regards
DL

Akragon

Depending on how you read scripture, God himself does not always keep his own commandments.

Does he go to hell?
I would say that if we do then he should as well.

Most theist though indicate that God can break his own rules with impunity because, are you ready for the must stupid line they can ever say, because he is God.

That goes hand in hand with the stupid----the Bible is the truth because it says it is the truth.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Akragon

Depending on how you read scripture, God himself does not always keep his own commandments.

Does he go to hell?
I would say that if we do then he should as well.

Most theist though indicate that God can break his own rules with impunity because, are you ready for the must stupid line they can ever say, because he is God.

That goes hand in hand with the stupid----the Bible is the truth because it says it is the truth.

Regards
DL

Hmmm....i'd think being "God" creator of all things, he'd be beyond the so called "rules". What does it matter if he breaks the rules...technically he has no one to answer to if he does.

This is also thinking that God should be personafied....perhaps my thoughts of God are different then others.

Re Akragon

You wrote:

["Hmmm....i'd think being "God" creator of all things, he'd be beyond the so called "rules". What does it matter if he breaks the rules...technically he has no one to answer to if he does."]

There's this old story about the theology student, who instead of learning bibleverses, scholastic and rhetoric, which at that time were christian virtues, spent his time boozing and playing cards (the story doesn't tell anything about ladies of the night though). When he finally had his examination, he was told to discourse on infallibility, predestination and similar christian topics of great importance.

To which he answered: "Everybody knows, that even God himself can't trump an ace with a king".

An alleged omnipotent creator could ofcourse change the rules or make the occasional exception without having anyone to answer to. But then the alleged OT 'god' certainly had identity and character, what with all the blood and control-freakiness, so the rules for the allegedly created seem to have a purpose ('intelligent design' according to christians attending evening classes in beginners' science). Thus changing the rules could jeopardize this purpose, and six or seven days work would go down the drain (unless Stephen Hawkins is right, and universes kind of make baby-universes to continue their species).

So maybe things are as they were expected to be, and the whole ethical perspective is besides the point. Creation could very well turn out to be a very complex sado-masochistic game, and as with advanced sadism the simple pleasure of just hurting someone wouldn't be enough. The victim has to say "PLEASE hurt me" (I must add, that I have no firsthand specific knowledge on the subject of S-M except from generally being part of this universe).

The whole story could be read and re-interpretated this way, adding still another sect to bible-rumination.

An alleged omnipotent creator could ofcourse change the rules or make the occasional exception without having anyone to answer to. But then the alleged OT 'god' certainly had identity and character, what with all the blood and control-freakiness, so the rules for the allegedly created seem to have a purpose ('intelligent design' according to christians attending evening classes in beginners' science). Thus changing the rules could jeopardize this purpose, and six or seven days work would go down the drain (unless Stephen Hawkins is right, and universes kind of make baby-universes to continue their species).

I don't see why God would have to change any rules or follow any guidelines...I'd think God would be beyond any rules clasified by human minds... Again being this omnipotent creator of everything, why would any rule apply.

Perhaps these rules don't apply to things outside the physical or material world.

So maybe things are as they were expected to be, and the whole ethical perspective is besides the point. Creation could very well turn out to be a very complex sado-masochistic game, and as with advanced sadism the simple pleasure of just hurting someone wouldn't be enough. The victim has to say "PLEASE hurt me..

The whole story could be read and re-interpretated this way, adding still another sect to bible-rumination.

I look at it this way, pain and suffering in the world is caused by whatever those people might have done in past incarnations....This is why it says "do to others what you would like to be done to you"... Its a very logical system....if you cause pain that exact pain will come back to you.... If you kill, you will be killed. Everything evens out sooner or later in this life or the next. Your Karma will always come back to you.

If you look at life this way, you can clearly see why there is so much pain and suffering in the world...Every person is guilty of his past sins. When you die....(assuming you haven't learned what you are here to learn) You get a clean slate, but you still owe your Karma. This might mean for instance, if you were a murderer, you will experience the torture you put whoever you murdered through in your previous life at some point in your new life.

The idea is simple, yet if you think about it....its completely logical.

This is why i've said before (perhaps not here) God does not interven in what happens here, the system is already perfect so theres no need.

Wow I was challenged to debate this by the OP.
First supposition.
Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.
Point 1 rebuttal
not a argument just a question ( please state source from religious texts if relevant to argument)( your opinion of others beliefs not supported)

Point 2 rebuttal
same as point one

Point 2.5 rebuttal
supposition, no support to OP

point 3 rebuttal
same as point one.

Point 4 rebuttal
same as point one

Conclusions to points
conclusion accepted only upon restatement.
You have determined there is no Hell if a good God exist. (please support original or restate)

If your challenge to debate was something that is not debatable therefore I could not win. Then I accept .I have been defeated. Don't hate the player hate the game.

My father tells me that if I get to close to the road I will die. He further tells me that if I go onto the highway, I will be struck by a car or a semi tractor trailer and willl be killed. Do not go to the road. Do as I say or suffer the consequences.

I ignore what he tells me, go out to the highway...play in the road...and I am killed. Is that the fault of my father? Does that make him evil?

God tells us not to sin...do not sin...follow Me and My word... if you do not, you will die eternally and go to Hell.

We ignore His word and His warnings...we sin, and refuse to follow Him...we die and go to hell... does that make God evil? Who is really at fault?

There are sinners...God will not surround Himself with sinners...he had to create a place for them...Hell.

Hell is an eternity away from God...all alone...away from all of those that you love, loved, or will love....darkness and absolute void and emptiness.

The depiction of hell is really an analogy of a burning trash pile ...like the one that caonstantly burned on the edge of Jerusalem in a ravine...because at that point, our refusal of God and death.... we become as trash... by our own device..tossed away.

Most of our views of hell come from Greek-Roman mythology and Dante's Inferno

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Akragon

Depending on how you read scripture, God himself does not always keep his own commandments.

Does he go to hell?
I would say that if we do then he should as well.

Most theist though indicate that God can break his own rules with impunity because, are you ready for the must stupid line they can ever say, because he is God.

That goes hand in hand with the stupid----the Bible is the truth because it says it is the truth.

Regards
DL

Hmmm....i'd think being "God" creator of all things, he'd be beyond the so called "rules". What does it matter if he breaks the rules...technically he has no one to answer to if he does.

This is also thinking that God should be personafied....perhaps my thoughts of God are different then others.

So you think it good policy for a law maker to say do as I say and not as I do?

Quite the position.

You will have to educate our law makers then and quote them scripture that says we are to emulate God and be as perfect as he is. Yuk.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Ubeen
Wow I was challenged to debate this by the OP.
First supposition.
Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.
Point 1 rebuttal
not a argument just a question ( please state source from religious texts if relevant to argument)( your opinion of others beliefs not supported)

Point 2 rebuttal
same as point one

Point 2.5 rebuttal
supposition, no support to OP

point 3 rebuttal
same as point one.

Point 4 rebuttal
same as point one

Conclusions to points
conclusion accepted only upon restatement.
You have determined there is no Hell if a good God exist. (please support original or restate)

If your challenge to debate was something that is not debatable therefore I could not win. Then I accept .I have been defeated. Don't hate the player hate the game.

edit on 8-1-2011 by Ubeen because: (no reason given)

This was in my second post and deals with your rebuttal.

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Hell, if it exists, goes against the above scripture unless you think hell is a good place.
If you agree that hell is a bad place then obviously, God would not use it to fight evil if scripture is to be believed.

You may want to view those links in post 2.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by AlreadyGone
My father tells me that if I get to close to the road I will die. He further tells me that if I go onto the highway, I will be struck by a car or a semi tractor trailer and willl be killed. Do not go to the road. Do as I say or suffer the consequences.

I ignore what he tells me, go out to the highway...play in the road...and I am killed. Is that the fault of my father? Does that make him evil?

Yes it does if you make your analogy more exact.

Let us look at a, to you, more real scenario.

Adam and Eve. You will see them as sinning and dying.
I will see them as doing the right thing, seeking knowledge and God, as they are dying, withholding the tree of life that would save them.

In your faulty scenario, you would have to add that your father prevented the ambulance from reaching you to save your life.

Do try to be more honest eh.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Akragon

Depending on how you read scripture, God himself does not always keep his own commandments.

Does he go to hell?
I would say that if we do then he should as well.

Most theist though indicate that God can break his own rules with impunity because, are you ready for the must stupid line they can ever say, because he is God.

That goes hand in hand with the stupid----the Bible is the truth because it says it is the truth.

Regards
DL

Hmmm....i'd think being "God" creator of all things, he'd be beyond the so called "rules". What does it matter if he breaks the rules...technically he has no one to answer to if he does.

This is also thinking that God should be personafied....perhaps my thoughts of God are different then others.

So you think it good policy for a law maker to say do as I say and not as I do?

Quite the position.

You will have to educate our law makers then and quote them scripture that says we are to emulate God and be as perfect as he is. Yuk.

Regards
DL

That isn't my postion on that particular subjuct, although you must admit. Many "law makers" do exactly that...

If you consider God as one of the human race which most seem to for some reason, i guess he should be subject to said laws....

Again i think God would not be subject to the same rules that apply to us.

Are your children subject to the same laws as you?

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Akragon

Depending on how you read scripture, God himself does not always keep his own commandments.

Does he go to hell?
I would say that if we do then he should as well.

Most theist though indicate that God can break his own rules with impunity because, are you ready for the must stupid line they can ever say, because he is God.

That goes hand in hand with the stupid----the Bible is the truth because it says it is the truth.

Regards
DL

Hmmm....i'd think being "God" creator of all things, he'd be beyond the so called "rules". What does it matter if he breaks the rules...technically he has no one to answer to if he does.

This is also thinking that God should be personafied....perhaps my thoughts of God are different then others.

So you think it good policy for a law maker to say do as I say and not as I do?

Quite the position.

You will have to educate our law makers then and quote them scripture that says we are to emulate God and be as perfect as he is. Yuk.

Regards
DL

That isn't my postion on that particular subjuct, although you must admit. Many "law makers" do exactly that...

If you consider God as one of the human race which most seem to for some reason, i guess he should be subject to said laws....

Again i think God would not be subject to the same rules that apply to us.

Are your children subject to the same laws as you?

Absolutely.

My laws for them follow their age and I would apply them to myself at the age in question. Once they reach adult age, if my rules say do as I say and not as I do then I would be just as big of a hypocrite as your God.

If they break any law then they suffer the consequences.

Unlike your God, I do not punish others for their infractions. That would be immoral. Right?

Think original sin.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


Why do you keep saying "my God"

I don't have any specific "diety" that i would call God....IMO God is everything and everyone. Not some psycho in the clouds waiting to spike a lightining bolt at me if i sin.

God isn't a he or a him...God IMO is the all...In everyone and everything. God doesn't punish sinners, you make your own Karma, be it positive or negitive. Life corrects itself accordingly...

So please Stop with the "My God" garbage

Re Akragon

You wrote:

["I don't see why God would have to change any rules or follow any guidelines...I'd think God would be beyond any rules clasified by human minds... Again being this omnipotent creator of everything, why would any rule apply."]

An alleged creator 'god' wouldn't be answering to 'anyone', but would relate to the purpose of his alleged creation. And as far as we can observe the visible part of creation, there are rules regulating it (cosmic structure, 'natural' laws). Change these rules, and the outcome will be changed from the expected ones. Obviously the alleged OT 'god' has 'needs' of his own (worship, blood, dominance), and existence as mankind usually experiences it is serving the alleged creators needs, not the needs of the created. This model can be considered as an intellectual similarity to gnostic and Hinayana cosmogony.

Quote: ["Perhaps these rules don't apply to things outside the physical or material world."]

I don't want to digress too far from topic, but what's beyond 'event horizon' (creation point) can mostly only be guessed at, though we can formulate a few working hypotheses. Most of all there's no reason whatsoever, that creation or the intent in it (if any) per se represents ultimate reality. Letting creation represent ultimate reality is what I call the swiss cheese analogy. There are knowledge gaps, and ideological extremists love to fill these gaps out with wild fantasies and speculations without any justification.

Our present best sources of information on this lie with chaos-theory, a subject still in its infancy.

Quote: ["I look at it this way, pain and suffering in the world is caused by whatever those people might have done in past incarnations....This is why it says "do to others what you would like to be done to you"... Its a very logical system....if you cause pain that exact pain will come back to you.... If you kill, you will be killed. Everything evens out sooner or later in this life or the next. Your Karma will always come back to you."]

Karma-theory is as speculative as most other religious or semi-religious ideas, and have turned more and more into doctrinal forms, based on assumptions. Do not confuse causality with karma, especially as causality may not function the same way 'outside' creation as inside.

And as to "do to others what you would like to be done to you"... there's nothing 'logical' about it. Ideological extremists of all kinds have through history had the most bizarre and violent ideas of what they want done to them. Martyrdom, flagellantism, fakir-practises, being sacrificed together with semi-divine humans or to meet a 'god', being a suicidal storm-trooper to further an ideology etc. Maybe 'others' aren't so keen on being included in such insanities.

Quote: ["If you look at life this way, you can clearly see why there is so much pain and suffering in the world."]

I don't look at it this way, as the whole argumentation is a result of speculative assumptions.

Quote: ["..Every person is guilty of his past sins."]

How do you know that?

Quote: ["When you die....(assuming you haven't learned what you are here to learn) You get a clean slate,"]

What says, that we're here to learn anything? You're putting up imaginary aims.

Quote: ["This is why i've said before (perhaps not here) God does not interven in what happens here, the system is already perfect so theres no need."]

Assuming that your whole chain of speculations is correct, yes. And ofcourse assuming, that we had the slightest inkling about the nature of this 'god'. Otherwise: NO.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Why do you keep saying "my God"

I don't have any specific "diety" that i would call God....IMO God is everything and everyone. Not some psycho in the clouds waiting to spike a lightining bolt at me if i sin.

God isn't a he or a him...God IMO is the all...In everyone and everything. God doesn't punish sinners, you make your own Karma, be it positive or negitive. Life corrects itself accordingly...

So please Stop with the "My God" garbage

Then if God is us, stop saying that we cannot understand God.
How in hell do you know what it understands in the first lace.
The God you promote is just as imaginary as any other without proof.
It is one you made up.

Regards
DL

Re AlreadyGone

You wrote:

["My father tells me that if I get to close to the road I will die. He further tells me that if I go onto the highway, I will be struck by a car or a semi tractor trailer and willl be killed. Do not go to the road. Do as I say or suffer the consequences.

I ignore what he tells me, go out to the highway...play in the road...and I am killed. Is that the fault of my father? Does that make him evil?

God tells us not to sin...do not sin...follow Me and My word... if you do not, you will die eternally and go to Hell."]

Before you can get into this presently popular fad of 'divine fatherhood' comparable to the more mundane version, you'll have to establish the existence of this entity, which people outside your holy bubble consider a fantasy.

But let's hypothetically assume the existence of such an entity. Then you'll have to demonstrate, that he/it is a representative of ultimate reality and morality. Hitler (considered as a semi-divinity) also told his 'children' not to mix with jews, as this was a 'sin'.

And: "follow Me and My word". Where's the difference from all the other control-freaks. Follow Me, or "you'll go to a kz-camp".

Quote: ["We ignore His word and His warnings...we sin, and refuse to follow Him...we die and go to hell... does that make God evil? Who is really at fault?"] etc. etc.

The rest of your post is just a parrot-like sermon from your book of confusion. If you have any point beyond the unavoidable 'I'm right, because I'm right' circle-argumentation (turning up at practically every thread) then say so. It's more realistic to preach in churches than on debate forums.