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Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.

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posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Jesus Christ.

That's why He gave you free will. To choose to love Him, follow His Word.


Redemption by the profit in the murder of an innocent man is immoral.
Only one who knows no shame and has no morals will do so or try to do so.
To make Jesus your personal beast of burden is just plain sinnful.

As to God sacrificing his son, if on earth as it is in heaven has any meaning for your black heart, you will know that man has better morals than God because here, fathers would step up and have the son bury the father because man is wise enough to know that it is wrong to have the fathers bury the sons.

Rethink your immoral position. The Bible itself shows you a better way where you can actually do what Jesus says.

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Note how we are to accept burden and not place it on Jesus.

God rejected the vicarious atonement of Jesus as it would be immoral to offer it or accept it.

Why have you forsaken me is answered with this .

Pro 21:3 To do justice and judgment [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Psa 49:7 None [of them] can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Are you willing to look up these and comment on our salvation without the blood or Jesus?

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

I know you will not be from seeing your vid but I felt it my duty to try to correct your wrong headed thinking.
Remember though that we are supposed to cary our heroes and not have them cary us.

God wants to see you walk tall into heaven. Not riding his son.

Regards
DL




posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
There is so much wrong with your thinking that I do not know where to start.


then it is by your freewill of choice not even to attempt to make me believe as you do, is it not ?

I believe what I believe, and it is your decision to keep it to yourself or not if you feel my beliefs are not standardized to your personal and perceived reality.

it denotes a word called "respect" to others and to self...


edit on 1/15/2011 by Cosmic.Artifact because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
God is love. ...
That's why He gave you free will. To choose to love Him, follow His Word.


Maybe I wasn't making my point clear enough to actually get a response.

You say "God is love"... but then this creator of the universe:

1) Created men.

2) Created free will.

3) Then allows anyone who doesn't believe in him to be tortured eternally in Hell, and won't ever intervene to help them.


Why else would you create free will unless it would be so that people could screw up and give him an excuse to torture them forever? Why would he let them be tortured forever, even if they repented in Hell, if he "is love"? I wouldn't even do that to anyone, so either your definition of "love" is a lot more twisted than mine and includes allowing people to be tortured for no reason at all by that point (it's not like they're learning something for future use or something, considering they're being tortured forever), or I'm more loving than your God is.



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I still don't understand why you think your God would be loving and forgiving and then at the same time create people that won't believe in his just so they'll be sent to Hell to be tortured forever.


God has gone to absurd lengths to redeem mankind. It's us who reject Him, not vice versa.



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 11:08 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 



Redemption by the profit in the murder of an innocent man is immoral.


I'd agree, thankfully that's nowhere near the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The rest of your reply is based upon this ignorant straw man.



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11

Maybe I wasn't making my point clear enough to actually get a response.


You got a response.


You say "God is love"... but then this creator of the universe:

1) Created men.

2) Created free will.

3) Then allows anyone who doesn't believe in him to be tortured eternally in Hell, and won't ever intervene to help them.


LOL, 'won't ever intervene to stop them'? Honestly, you feel that way? He sent the law, He sent the prophets, He sent His angels, He sent His Son, and he sent the apostles. He entered human history as a kinsman redeemer to pay the price none of us could afford to pay and simply asked us to trust Him and humble ourselves and ask for forgiveness. And promised a radically changed life here and now and eternity with Him.

He has gone to absurd lengths to redeem mankind. His entire purpose for life as we know it was to make a "bride" for His Son for eternity. A bride that chose to love Him, that wasn't created to love Him.



Why else would you create free will unless it would be so that people could screw up and give him an excuse to torture them forever? Why would he let them be tortured forever, even if they repented in Hell, if he "is love"? I wouldn't even do that to anyone, so either your definition of "love" is a lot more twisted than mine and includes allowing people to be tortured for no reason at all by that point (it's not like they're learning something for future use or something, considering they're being tortured forever), or I'm more loving than your God is.


Simple. People rejct him, some people are rebellious and want to be God of their life. It's their faults, not God's.



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 11:45 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
LOL, 'won't ever intervene to stop them'? Honestly, you feel that way? He sent the law, He sent the prophets, He sent His angels, He sent His Son, and he sent the apostles. He entered human history as a kinsman redeemer to pay the price none of us could afford to pay and simply asked us to trust Him and humble ourselves and ask for forgiveness.


And yet sent no rigorous proof of any of those things. You just have to believe it like little kids believe in Santa Claus or else you get sent to Hell and tortured eternally, and then you missed your chance, yep, God's not listening now, you just have to burn...... forever.


He has gone to absurd lengths to redeem mankind.


Not considering he's God and supposed to be the creator of everything and infinitely powerful. No length should be beyond his power. The least he could do would be to "send down" enough hard evidence so that even good-natured agnostics and skeptics could believe too, instead of just dooming them to be tortured in Hell forever too just for being too questioning of his lack of evidence.


Simple. People rejct him, some people are rebellious and want to be God of their life. It's their faults, not God's.


But God created all these people, so he must have created their flaws too, even if they fall under what you call "free will." You could have no free will, where everyone goes to Heaven. Or you can introduce free will, and suddenly people go to Hell and are tortured forever too. And he apparently chooses to go with the latter. Why, again? Where is the "loving God" in this "free will" system?



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
Originally posted by NOTurTypical


And yet sent no rigorous proof of any of those things. You just have to believe it like little kids believe in Santa Claus or else you get sent to Hell and tortured eternally, and then you missed your chance, yep, God's not listening now, you just have to burn...... forever.


I've seen firsthand "proof" of everything. It's my personal testimony to a radically changed life. Praise the Lord, His words are true and I wouldn't go back to the old me for anything.
The second part is absurd conjectures. NEWSFLASH: not everyone will repent and be forgiven and born again. Genesis tells us there will not just be the "seed of the woman" on this Earth, but also the "seed of the serpent". And the two are at complete odds.

God sovereignly saves whomever He wants to, and does so by the millions upon millions. Not everyone will be saved.



Not considering he's God and supposed to be the creator of everything and infinitely powerful. No length should be beyond his power. The least he could do would be to "send down" enough hard evidence so that even good-natured agnostics and skeptics could believe too, instead of just dooming them to be tortured in Hell forever too just for being too questioning of his lack of evidence.


You act like you'd wish God would force His love on you? Force you to want to spend eternity with Him. He won't do that, we're created in His image. He isn't a robot, neither were we created to be ones. And you claim there is no lack of evidence. I completely disagree, I'm impressed to a great deal of the evidence.




But God created all these people, so he must have created their flaws too, even if they fall under what you call "free will." You could have no free will, where everyone goes to Heaven. Or you can introduce free will, and suddenly people go to Hell and are tortured forever too. And he apparently chooses to go with the latter. Why, again? Where is the "loving God" in this "free will" system?


Flaws are not a "created" thing. They are actions, most of the time thought about. Satan is the reason for our fallen, sinful, rebellious nature. God created a perfect world and creation and one narcissistic cherub decides he wants the glory and worship and destroys what God made perfect. But I think God's plan all along was to create us, allow satan to tempt/seduce Eve to train and redeem a "bride" for His Son.

The entirety of the Bible clearly display's God's love, it's the ultimate theme of the Bible. The most loving and respectful way God could have created us was with free will, anything less wouldn't be true love. And if you were in His shoes, you'd choose to create something that could choose not to love you in return.
edit on 16-1-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 02:16 AM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 




And yet sent no rigorous proof of any of those things


He's promised if you seek Him with all your heart you will find Him. Take Him up on that promise, see for yourself. I can attest to His reality. What are you scared of? Take Him up on all His promises to prove His reality to you.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 02:56 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
NEWSFLASH: not everyone will repent and be forgiven and born again. Genesis tells us there will not just be the "seed of the woman" on this Earth, but also the "seed of the serpent". And the two are at complete odds.


Well I guess my whole purpose for being created then was to go be tortured in Hell eternally just to give you a hard time while you're here.


You say you won't go back to the "old" you, well I guess things are pretty black and white in your mind after all.



God sovereignly saves whomever He wants to, and does so by the millions upon millions. Not everyone will be saved.


If your God is really the creator of everything then it was his choice to create humans just to send so many of them to Hell to torture eternally. There's no two ways about that, unless he's just creating haphazardly and doesn't know what the hell he's doing (no pun intended). That's not exactly a loving idea, to create people just to torture them, but that's apparently something you're never going to be able to come to grips with, without a massive faith stroke clogging your neural networks.


You act like you'd wish God would force His love on you?


No, I said if your God was synonymous with pure love then he would try a little harder to convince all us folks who don't believe in Santa or the boogey man either, before sending us all into a fire pit to be tortured forever. Then again this whole mentality does come out of the middle ages, and from the Catholic Church, which also physically tortured people, so what a surprise.

I have no problem finding love in the universe without your God. But I have to question what kind of "love" you're experiencing when the same dude is supposedly creating so many people just to torture them, and you don't think something is wrong with that whole idea.


He won't do that, we're created in His image. He isn't a robot, neither were we created to be ones.


So we're like mini-creators ourselves? Now there's something I actually agree with.



And you claim there is no lack of evidence. I completely disagree, I'm impressed to a great deal of the evidence.


Subjective evidence, sure. Objective evidence, no. I have my own subjective experiences from other traditions that I wouldn't even bother you with. The reason we discuss objective experiences is so we can have common ground, without having to resort to subjective experiences that vary so greatly from Muslim to Buddhist to Christian to Wiccan, etc.


Flaws are not a "created" thing.


Then how can they exist? I was under the impression that anything that exists, is created. Maybe you're using unconventional meanings for words again.



God created a perfect world and creation and one narcissistic cherub decides he wants the glory and worship and destroys what God made perfect.


God must not have made it very "perfect" if he also made a narcissistic cherub.


I guess narcissistic cherub's aren't actually created, either, though. They must just spontaneously happen completely out of God's control.


But I think God's plan all along was to create us, allow satan to tempt/seduce Eve to train and redeem a "bride" for His Son.


And if a few billion souls are created just to end up tortured in the process, ah hell, maybe God can just bottle them and use them for lights in Heaven. I feel so much love from this guy.



The entirety of the Bible clearly display's God's love, it's the ultimate theme of the Bible.


I hope you don't mean the Old Testament too? Or maybe "love" meant something different back in the days when a sass-talking child was to be stoned to death in town, or a woman who lost her virginity too early was stoned to death too, or hey, let's sing a song about beating babies against rocks.


The most loving and respectful way God could have created us was with free will, anything less wouldn't be true love.


So the logical consequence of this is, inevitably having to send so many people to Hell so they will be tortured forever, and then paying them no mind anymore beyond that point and just letting them burn, is "true love." You're starting to scare me.



Originally posted by NOTurTypical
He's promised if you seek Him with all your heart you will find Him. Take Him up on that promise, see for yourself. I can attest to His reality. What are you scared of? Take Him up on all His promises to prove His reality to you.


I'm scared of wasting my time and regressing into a more devolved state of being. I've been there and done that. Asking God into my life was what made me first start to seriously reconsider the idea that a loving being could even stand for Hell, because in my heart I know I wouldn't, and no deity that isn't at least equally loving as myself, can be equated with love at all. Because while I may have more heart than a being that would cause others to suffer eternally, I'm still not the most loving being in the universe.
edit on 16-1-2011 by bsbray11 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact

Originally posted by Greatest I am
There is so much wrong with your thinking that I do not know where to start.


then it is by your freewill of choice not even to attempt to make me believe as you do, is it not ?

I believe what I believe, and it is your decision to keep it to yourself or not if you feel my beliefs are not standardized to your personal and perceived reality.

it denotes a word called "respect" to others and to self...


edit on 1/15/2011 by Cosmic.Artifact because: (no reason given)


I know what you are saying but think it our duty to our fellow man to correct wrong thinking.
I follow your book of wisdom to some extent on this.
I see you mired in belief in fantasy and magic and think that deadly to adult thinking.

Proverbs 3:12
For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Would you tell the lord what you have told me if he told you not to believe in talking animals and a water walking immortal God who can somehow die?


Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



Redemption by the profit in the murder of an innocent man is immoral.


I'd agree, thankfully that's nowhere near the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The rest of your reply is based upon this ignorant straw man.


You can shrug off my so called straw man if you like but it is based on scripture.

God rejected the vicarious atonement of Jesus as it would be immoral to offer it or accept it.

Why have you forsaken me is answered with this .

Pro 21:3 To do justice and judgment [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Psa 49:7 None [of them] can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Are you willing to look up these and comment on our salvation without the blood or Jesus?

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 05:47 PM
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This is my first post on this thread, and I hope DL, the OP reads it. I have debated the likes of DL many a time on other forums, and the modus-operandi is almost always the same:

First... Athiest / Agnostic OP starts a thread about Hell and tries to stoke a response from Christians.

Next....."Real" i.e. Born Again, regenerated Christians (not pseudo-christians) persistently try to persuade the OP that there really is a Hell, God is real, Jesus died for your sins so you can go to heaven rather than Hell when you die, etc.

Next... OP keeps turning the pot by twisting sincere answers by asking evebn mnore absurd questions and making moronic statements.

.......And on and on it goes until the thread dies a slow and painful death. DL, FWIW, I have seen the Hell as presented in the Bible it is real. Circa 1978 when I was 21 years old. I know you'll scoff, I don't really care. The only thing that matters to you is trying to outwit Christians. All you're doing is heaping the coals hotter for the day.

I'll say a prayer that God will draw you to him and you will accept Christ as stated in Romans 10:

BTW, I don't wish Hell on anyone, and neither does God, but it's real and once your there "THERE IS NO HOPE" Those words will reverberate through your undescribably tortured mind for eternity..

Have a nice day



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
I know what you are saying but think it our duty to our fellow man to correct wrong thinking.


first off, who is "our" could you quite possibly mean "your" duty ?

I will read the rest of your statement now, but just saying how I perceive you ok



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 06:22 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


I still say... you are not your own God.

God is Love and you do not emanate much of this from what I have seen, therefore you must not be God.

being an adult does not make one God, thinking oneself to be mature does not make this the fact and if anything I think you have the wrong interpretation of the book of wisdom, as you would call it.

your logic is quite flawed if you perceive the Bible this way, I recommend and pray then the spirit descend on you for the next time you dwelve into it.

you can not be your own God because you do not know true love, nor the mind of my God, which is the God of Abraham and of the Holy Bible. There are plenty of warnings I am quite sure in that book (the Bible) against thinking like this.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by Heatrae
This is my first post on this thread, and I hope DL, the OP reads it. I have debated the likes of DL many a time on other forums, and the modus-operandi is almost always the same:

First... Athiest / Agnostic OP starts a thread about Hell and tries to stoke a response from Christians.

Next....."Real" i.e. Born Again, regenerated Christians (not pseudo-christians) persistently try to persuade the OP that there really is a Hell, God is real, Jesus died for your sins so you can go to heaven rather than Hell when you die, etc.

Next... OP keeps turning the pot by twisting sincere answers by asking evebn mnore absurd questions and making moronic statements.

.......And on and on it goes until the thread dies a slow and painful death. DL, FWIW, I have seen the Hell as presented in the Bible it is real. Circa 1978 when I was 21 years old. I know you'll scoff, I don't really care. The only thing that matters to you is trying to outwit Christians. All you're doing is heaping the coals hotter for the day.

I'll say a prayer that God will draw you to him and you will accept Christ as stated in Romans 10:

BTW, I don't wish Hell on anyone, and neither does God, but it's real and once your there "THERE IS NO HOPE" Those words will reverberate through your undescribably tortured mind for eternity..

Have a nice day




Well, I recognize as you should that one cannot convince anyone of the unseen without some kind of proof.
You say you saw hell and it is real but have no proof.
I will not scoff at that.
I will and have admitted to an apotheosis and cannot prove it either and do not like to be scoffed at for that either and that is why I based my O P on the moral question as opposed to the actual belief in a real hell.
I take it as a given that if God created it is must be moral. If immoral then God would not create it.

So, with others thinking we are both delusional, let's look at the morals shall we?

" "THERE IS NO HOPE" Those words will reverberate through your undescribably tortured mind for eternity"

Eternity is quite a long time and I usually ask something about the immorality of infinite torture for a finite sin but let'd deal with what you said instead.

Punishment is usually given to change thoughts or actions and cause someone to repent so that they do not do some action or think in a certain way. Once rehabilitated, to continue punishing for no reason other than the punishment itself is pointless and could be seen as just cruelty.

You said punishment is forever.
It would be pointless then would it not because, let's face it, if a sinner has not repented after burning for a few millionb years, he is not going to repent or change his thinking about his sin.

What is the value then of the torture if not just done out of cruelty?
If no result or change will happen for the soul evenwith infinite torture, would the moral thing to do not be to just kill the soul.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact

Originally posted by Greatest I am
I know what you are saying but think it our duty to our fellow man to correct wrong thinking.


first off, who is "our" could you quite possibly mean "your" duty ?

I will read the rest of your statement now, but just saying how I perceive you ok


I use our because I see myself as part of a demographic common and am my brothers keeper in the sense that it is part of my duty to the common to have it and all us thinking the right way. As right as we can all dither out anyway. No I do not have a monopoly on truth and expect and want others to help me think properly as well wherever I an not thinking in the right way.

If you do not feel any responsibility to your fellow man then exempt yourself from the we but if you are ever hurt by someone who was just never corrected in his thinking and did something to you that could have been prevented by training or advise then you can only blame those with your mind set for ignoring that poor soul in the first place. it is that old what goes around comes around saying.
It is self protection.
Do you see it?

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


I still say... you are not your own God.

God is Love and you do not emanate much of this from what I have seen, therefore you must not be God.

being an adult does not make one God, thinking oneself to be mature does not make this the fact and if anything I think you have the wrong interpretation of the book of wisdom, as you would call it.

your logic is quite flawed if you perceive the Bible this way, I recommend and pray then the spirit descend on you for the next time you dwelve into it.

you can not be your own God because you do not know true love, nor the mind of my God, which is the God of Abraham and of the Holy Bible. There are plenty of warnings I am quite sure in that book (the Bible) against thinking like this.


Then I suggest that you read it again for the first time.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God:
John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

These are only a few of the quotes that show our destiny.

A & E became as Gods. God's own words.

Why would you think the rest of us cannot get there and why do you think the Bible urges us to be as perfect as God if we cannot get there.

Remember as well that the Bible was written to have you be a slave and not a free man. It wants sheeple instead of people.

Follow Jesus in this who pointed, in a Gnostic way, to your body as the temple of God.
God is to live within you. He is not a sky daddy. He is within. That is also why we are our brothers keeper and are to hate sin while loving the sinner. The temple of God.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
I use our because I see myself as part of a demographic common


since I do not know you that well, can you please clear up for me with a clear statement on which demographic this is please... (denomination, sect, group, religion, or other)


those with your mind set


I am quite sorry, maybe you do not understand my mind-set... my mind-set is that of an individual person, my thoughts are unique and my own creation.

Therefore (I am) my own person, and I live under my God...



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 07:18 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
Then I suggest that you read it again for the first time.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

means to be like, do and try to act as, the son of God did... nothing more.


1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God:

yes, the father is Love, the greatest manifestation of love, and if you want to be like the son of God we should live in and by this love only.


John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

again, sons does not mean God the father... even though it does not yet appear to be that we are even worthy to be considered sons, we can still have hopes to be like the son.


John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

where does it say in the commandments (the law) that we are Gods ?


These are only a few of the quotes that show our destiny.

it is only my destiny to live under and in my Gods love and to try to be as he has taught, until that day of course.

I am terribly sorry for the multiple quotes and break down, but in this case I think it was allotted, in no way am I dictating anything to anyone I am only giving interpretation of those specific versus you have quoted... And I also must admit, some of that is the very first time I have read them, I do not claim to be a bible expert so do mind that it is only my initial response to what I have read, without knowing in what context they lay (part of the story which leads up to the particular verses posted)




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