I spent 3 hours in the ER on the 15th. I just got my $11,000.00 bill in the mail.

reply to post by seedofchucky


You do realize of course that one of WHO's major point makers is having a national healthcare system and those that don't are dropped way in the WHO's rankings right?

reply to post by plube


The thing is Plube we do live in a capitalist society in the UK. The difference is we realised that in Capitalism there are always going to be winners and losers and that we have a duty to look after the ones who suffer under this system, which is generally the poor, elderly and the sick. It is the mark of a civilised society, that is prepared to look out for the losers not just the winners. It's not perfect , but far more preferable to the dog eat dog, every man for himself attitude displayed by some of our American friends.

reply to post by woodwardjnr


I know we do live in a capitalist society in the uk...but i was trying to get through to Electric Universe by tossing him a carrot so he might lessen his harsh critism towards the EU....I don't know why he feels that America is the only true capitalist society and i am trying to suss this out.
I am from Capitalist Canada and have lived in Capitalist UK now for 7years...I lived in the Capitalist states for 4years...but i still cannot phathom how he ets that health care means you become socialist.
Also the point about public schools was appropriate cause public school is socialist to ensure everyone gets a education.

reply to post by plube


I just think some of our American friends have a completely different mindset when it comes to paying taxes. When I look at my pay pack and see the tax taken, I dont really question it. I'm more concerned that my tax is being used correctly, to pay for schools , hospital etc etc. Not being used to prop up capitalist institutions like the Banks, or cover the tax evaders, who are rich enough to avoid paying their taxes, with their offshore baking

reply to post by AndrewJay


Andrewjay,
I agree with endtimer. He's right. And I am one of those people who knows just how hard it is to hit those tough times. I was homeless for three years, I dragged myself out of the gutter and back onto my own two feet. No one came running to my aid, I sure didn't have people beating on the door to the abandoned building I slept in. No one went rushing about to get me food or clothing. I didn't go running to the government, I didn't go crying about how terrible life is to me, I did what I had to do. Yes I had medical bills that followed me after I got back on my feet and I paid them. Payment for services rendered.

Trust me son, when you live the life I have, telling someone else they don't know what hard times are comes real easy. But then again I don't know what other people have been through in their lives so I don't pass judgment, I tell you what I think and move on. Your life is your life, live it how you want. I prefer personal responsibility in mine, it makes me feel pride when I accomplish something like regaining my place as a useful contributing member of society. If you prefer someone else telling you what to do , when to do it, how to do it, great. good for you.

To sit there and say that someone who speaks out against Obamacare doesn't know what hard times are is utterly a$$inine. Sounds more like you have no clue what tough times really are.

Then there are those posters who scream about social justice. Sorry folks, its a pipe dream, just like utopia. If you want social justice, you must be able to perceive social injustice, and IMHO the biggest social injustice is demanding that people who contribute to society take care of those leeches on society. I'm not saying all on welfare,etc are leeches, but there sure are a lot of them in the system. Deal with THAT social injustice before you come screaming about what I MUST do to forward social justice by providing money for the aforementioned leeches.

reply to post by Sparky63


well I will address this a bit..but it has been a little while since i have lived in canada...but 8years i was paying about $18/month as a single person....and about $70/month for a family with four kids....hmmm...now that covered ALL things...now the insurance pool is huge as Everyone paying taxes is involved...so it can stay cheap.
Now many things occur...because it is availible sometimes waiting times can be slow....because the facilities are bieng utilized...now is it not a good thing the equipment is beiing used rather than just sitting there waiting til someone can afford to use it.
now there are private facilities and people can use them...but that they use ontop of their contribtion as we do have BUPA facilities...but that choice is there if they want it....and if your wealthy enough to afford it...then what is a lousy $70/month into the public system...and people who do have both still will use the benifits of the public system when it comes to cheap prescriptions and other medical needs.

reply to post by plube

now the insurance pool is huge as Everyone paying taxes is involved...so it can stay cheap.

That is the point and great advantage of system payed from taxes. And since it can stay cheaper than private solutions due to this inherent advantage, it stimulates competition in the private sector, since if private companies form a cartel and start to increase prices without increase in quality, people would leave and use only government system instead. gov + many private companies is more competition than only private companies.

reply to post by endtimer


endtimer this was sickest I ever read on ATS forum.

You are so sick that I created account just to replay to you and say what is on my mind.

I must congratulate you on one thing:
- You are expert in spreading hate. There is no other word for what you are saying. When I saw your post, I started to hate you, like I believe lots of other people.
I believe you wanted to do just that so you are successful hate spreader.

So if we know you are hate spreader, then we simply need to ignore you, and stop spreading your hate. That is only way to fight sick people like you. If I say to you what is on my mind, I would just do what you do, spread hate.

ggggggggggggzzzzzzz it is so hard not to say what is on my mind. You are very sick and brainwashed man and I personally doubt that you will change. It is because inside of you, you know that you are not right. Other option is that you spread hate by purpose.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Ahh, that's exactly the right wing tripe I was referring about! Every time there is healthcare debate on ATS, it usually takes but a few pages to arrive to the mention of "forefathers" and "constitution". I can imagine talking to a religious fundamentalist on any topic (like space exploration) and hearing that "God will provide". Same difference. Basically, you have no answer and thump the book. Shame.

Wow, the shame should be on you, but as always i expected this from someone like you. The nation where you were born hasn't "yet" restricted your right to free speech because the forefathers wrote in those documents you obviously don't respect that every person has inalienable rights, including people like you who would rather those documents didn't exist so your socialist utopia can be implemented.... That "rightwing tripe" that you refer to are the documents which made the foundations of this nation, and "made it great"...

The problem came when "leftists" began forcing their ideas on this nation that the nation began it's descent towards a dictatorship, and unfortunately even the Republican party has been infiltrated by leftists and most of the others were bought off by those in power, the feds/banksters that the left put in power in 1913 by making a central banking system and giving power over this system to the rich elites.

Centralization and consolidation of all power to an entity/group of people is what the left does, claiming they are doing it for the people and that the people have the power, and it is why these systems lead eventually to socialist dictatorships.

The left LOVES to claim they are very educated, yet you LOVE to ignore history.

Tell you what, the forefathers of the U.S. left Europe to escape the old system the left wants America to re-unite once again with, instead you should be doing what the forefathers did, find another land and then you can implement all the leftist ideas and programs you want. You don't even have to remember the Constitution of the United States, and the BIll of Rights, you can go ahead and implement in some other land the communist manifesto for all we care.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
If you tried to educate me and others in your posts, on the topic of individualism as you see it, you painted a really grotesque and unappealing picture. Please be as individualistic as you want, fine by any measure, but letting people's lives to be ruined (and/or ended in a preventable situation) by a catastrophic event is either primitive or unethical or sadistic or some combination thereof.

Educate you?.. naa, your kind are too naive and too brainwashed to see what is right in front of you. People like you can't understand for the life of you that "humanitarianism" is not inherent in the socialist agenda, even thou you, and those who have been brainwashing you claim the contrary... Humanitarianism is inherent on every person despite their political leanings, and what history has shown is that those who claim to be the most "humanitarians/the left" are the least generous of all because you all want to depent on the government hence think that the government should provide for others.

BTW which nation provides the most help to other nations when in need?... Not Europe, not Britain but the U.S. and what do these nations do when the U.S. is hit by catastrophe? They all turn their backs, except Chavez trying to brainwash more the left in the U.S. that his socialist system is better...

This "generosity" of the left around the world didn't start the other day, or "since the war in Iraq", but has been happening for decades.

The Americans
Gordon Sinclair
Radio Station CFBR 1010
2 St. Clair Avenue West
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

"LET'S BE PERSONAL"
Broadcast June 5, 1973
CFRB, Toronto, Ontario
Topic: "The Americans"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.

As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtse. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did.

They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.

The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans.

I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.

Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas 107? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on the moon?

You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them ... unless they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

When the Americans get out of this bind ... as they will... who could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.

Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.

I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.

This year's disasters .. with the year less than half-over… has taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped.

www.tysknews.com...

But of course when the left around the world are shown the facts they claim"Americans are selfish, and arrogant" when these leftists around the world are the ones bragging the "socialist model is the best for the world"...

Originally posted by buddhasystem
So bend over for the right.

Bend over to the left and to the banksters elites your people put in power.

Originally posted by ferumbra

reply to post by endtimer

 

endtimer this was sickest I ever read on ATS forum.

You are so sick that I created account just to replay to you and say what is on my mind.

Originally posted by endtimer

How many more times do I have to say it loud and clear? I don't take pride in the "system".

I don't "covenant" as you alluded to. I DON'T believe in the system. I have clearly said it
SUCKS. Big neon light here. FLASH FLASH FLASH. I will say again for those who are
not able to read and comprehend what is being said by me. I am not wishing the OP bad
things.

Until the system you are talking about is actually CHANGED, nothing will happen.
Gripe and complain and whine all you want, it doesn't do any good for the moment to continue
on with this ridiculous bickering over something NONE of us citizens can do anything about.
Maybe all of the complaining will oneday do some good and create change, but nothing is
happening. So, in the interim, find a way to deal with this crap.

And yes, I have had a number of life threatening things going on in my lifetime. Some were paid
for by the insurance I had with generous employers. Other things I have not had paid. I am
presently trying to pay off an MRI that was done a couple of years ago. Those are unbelievably
expensive. I was out of work and didn't have squat for insurance. I worked it out with the
hospital to pay small payments each month until it is paid off. I didn't go on the welfare system
or ask anyone else to foot the bill or complain about it. I worked it out. I know how rotten the
jacka$$ system is. I am still paying for the MRI and will probably have it paid off in another
year. That's just how it is.

For those who demand free, free, free, will you please pay for this piece of crap computer
and the internet service so I can continue looking at a glass box with complete strangers
all over the world who think that socialism is all fuzzy and warm and happy? Socialism has
never worked in the entire history of this planet. NO WHERE ! So please keep it to yourself
about how wonderful it is.

Endtimer says the system sucks and must be changed, but he does what must be done and he pays his bills.

We must be careful that the deceitful and ignorant (Like ferumbra) do not separate those of us who trully understand what is being said and are willing to take a stand against the hordes of the mindless and the uneducated.

Be on guard friends.

One more thing, i find ironic that the OP called in to ask why there are programs that help the needy which are not getting enough money and the response he got was "because the recession", some others and I show that the "socialist utopia" around the world is also cutting on programs that help the needy, and for healthcare and we are told by the left that what we post has no relevance...

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Yeah well they do a whole lot better than us when it comes to school shooting incidents. Did they have Columbine, Virginia Tech and other such incidents? I'm OK with a bloodied nose over a soccer game, compared to the slaughter we've got accustomed to, in the US.

The "slaughters" in the U.S. happen because the left has implemented "free gun zones" everywhere, including in Military bases... Thanks to Clinton, the massacre of Ft. Hood happened because every soldier that was killed WAS DISARMED... If there had been teachers, or other students armed at Columbine, or Virginia tech, the murderers would have been dropped on their first or second shot...

Again, lefties such as yourself can't seem to understand it even when the evidence is there to be seen.

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.
By James Slack
Last updated at 12:14 AM on 3rd July 2009

Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.
Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.
The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.

The Tories said Labour had presided over a decade of spiralling violence.
In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute.
The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:

The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.
But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.
In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ec48b7553e41.jpg[/atsimg]

The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.
Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

You ban citizens from owning firearms and ONLY CRIMINALS will have firearms...

Crimes in general, and even crimes with handguns have INCREASED in the UK since the handgun ban...

In the U.S. most gun crimes occur in states that have become the spitting image of European nations... The same states where firearms are either banned or heavily restricted are the states with the most crimes WITH FIREARMS AND HANDGUNS, but this is "inconprehensible" to the left who are too brainwashed and too naive to understand what the facts state.

BTW, there are people killed also in soccer games in European nations in case you didn't know...

1.) England Soccer fans: Nothing in America comes close to the depths of hell that is soccer fandom in the rest of the world, particularly England. American fans can't even comprehend going to a game and watching 39 people get killed (or getting killed themselves) as happened in 1985 when English fans rioted at a match in Brussels. Surely, the worst incident, but hardly the only one in a long line of bloody soccer riots that have plagued English fandom history. Add to that the insidious element of skinhead racism in hooliganism culture, and you have a truly detestable element of sports fandom. Speaking as someone who has been in Dublin during an England vs. Ireland match, things can get very ugly and violent very fast on the street, long after the match is over. I've seen it firsthand. This is all certainly not indicative of all English soccer fans, but the violent element of its fan base puts a stain on the culture that lands it indisputably at No. 1.
...

www.bleacherbloggers.com...

Perhaps they should ban these sporting events as well...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


You've evidently chosen to ignore this comment, which I can't say under the circumstances I blame you.

Comment by ladyinwaiting:
But what is also true, maybe even truer, is that some people find caring about others, people they don't know, so completely foreign to themselves and their own character, they are unable to conceive and comprehend it's genuineness in others.

But I'm really curious about the question below and your response, and also the justification if there is one.

Comment by ladyingwaiting:

So, where do you stand on highways, law enforcement, and the fire departments? Are schools okay with you?
I'm curious as to where you draw the line.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
...
Not being used to prop up capitalist institutions like the Banks, or cover the tax evaders, who are rich enough to avoid paying their taxes, with their offshore baking

And again this has happened because of the left in the U.S. Woodrow Wilson, a PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT signed into law in 1913 the Federal Reserve Act giving power over all U.S. economy to a bunch of bankster elitists, he also founded the IRS as it exists today... Under Obama over $13 trillion dollars have been lost/stolen by these same banksters that the left put in power, apart from the billions in bailouts, plus the Feds/banksters threatened members of Congress that the economy would collapse if they weren't given the money they demanded... Again ALL thanks to the LEFT...

reply to post by Shamanistical

Sham, you said:

I want to live forever and maybe we can if, like vampires, we suck the life out of the young and healthy in order to benefit our sorry asses, ha. Yeah, man, how cool is that.

Plato said:

You are young, my son, and as the years go by, time will change and over reverse many of your present opinions.

Refrain therefore a while from setting yourself as a Judge of the highest matters.

Plato

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


you my friend are absolutely and truley delusional after that post ...because the US was not the only country to go in and offer help in al those instances and you say you are educated...my god did you know what i had put in earlier....BLOOD MONEY....they help China cause of their interests there...now as for Mississippi countries offered help...but your peole friendly goverment REFUSED....and they let the people of Mississippi suffer under their own delusion Egos. The states propped up the franc to serve their own self interest....wow...you my friend need to learn to read between the lines...and then you can get to the truth.

A new report reveals the US government turned down offers of help from across the globe in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, telling one diplomat "human assistance of any kind is not on our priorities list."

just an example of which there are many....but this thread is not for this....you cannot seem to stay on topic EVER...I have seen you in THREAD after THREAD...even in your own threads derail the top to america and it's constitution.....Get a grip ......step out of your little world and learn to foolow a thread....because it is shameful...and i do not know why you are allowed to continue in such a fashion...this thread is not about...CONSTITUTION,GUNS,AID,SOCIALISM,COMMUNISM.....Itis simply about a poor unfortunate soul who happen to have gotton ill and is now in a very poor financial position...now if your so pround of all the BLOOD MONEY aid the US gives....why not wtie to them and ask them to help this man...or help the Victims of Huricane Katrina...WHOM by the way are still suffering and many still living in trailiers....as the INSURANCE companiesmake people jump through hoop anfter hoop after hoop.......so please stay focussed here...HEALTH CARE.......HEALTH INSURANCE.......
Or are you to blinded by hate and rage of others.....I just cannot figure it out.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting

You've evidently chosen to ignore this comment, which I can't say under the circumstances I blame you.

I didn't choose to ignore it, I responded to you. Go back a few pages and read my response...

BTW, let me ask you this, do you, like some others think that being humanitarian, and caring for others is only inherent in the socialist dogma? You all SEEM to think so...

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
But what is also true, maybe even truer, is that some people find caring about others, people they don't know, so completely foreign to themselves and their own character, they are unable to conceive and comprehend it's genuineness in others.

Do tell us again, why is it that in those states where people are more "socialist minded" that people are the most selfish, and uncaring? People want to depend on government hence they expect others to also depent on government, yet you seem to want to claim the contrary?

I have lived with friends in New York, in New Jersey, in Cali, and also lived in places like Wyoming, and Montana, where do you think i found the most friendly people in those places?... I'll give you a hint, not in New York, New Jersey, or Cali.

In contrast I have also worked in the border of Canada, where I worked with some Canadians, and also with Americans and found myself being prejudiced against because of my accent by some people, something that didn't happen in Wyoming, or other places in Montana, or even in small cities.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting

But I'm really curious about the question below and your response, and also the justification if there is one

So, where do you stand on highways, law enforcement, and the fire departments? Are schools okay with you?
I'm curious as to where you draw the line.

And you actually think any of those programs is "socialist", or programs that "the Left" implemented?...

man alive that is simply small town big city issues.....how old are you....38 and you don't know this....OMG....

Happens everywhere you go small towns people need to help each other out as the resources are less and access to other sources are limited...man....And for the Third time...would you please stop talking down to peole and learn to treat people as equals....You have made me do something i thought i would never do and that is to ask a mod to come in and monitor this thread...as it is completely off topic and derailing into a hate thread....
now i have i have all over the world....big towns small towns and cities......everywhere is different...but you can make some generalisations between small town and city....heck did you ever watch country mouse city mouse.

I mean please get back on topic and focus on the health care issue...and please answer..one...yes the one simple question....how does health care automatically send a country down the road to socialism or communism.

I mean you pay taxes in American...you have public schools....please focus.

reply to post by plube


EVERY ONE of those offers for help came WITH A PRICE... In EVERY instance...

By EILEEN SULLIVAN, MATTHEW LEE
The Associated Press
updated 6/18/2010 7:32:51 PM ET 2010-06-18T23:32:51
Share Print Font: +-WASHINGTON — At least 22 nations — including Britain, where BP is based — have offered oil-collecting skimmers, boom, technical experts and more to help the U.S. cope with its worst-ever environmental disaster. But their generosity comes with a price tag.

The State Department confirmed that nearly every offer of equipment or expertise from a foreign government since the April 20 oil rig explosion would require the U.S. to reimburse that country.
...

www.msnbc.msn.com...

YOU my friend are the one who is delusional, and naive...

When "international help" is given to the U.S. it comes with a price tag... Most, if not every country demands to be paid back...

Those offers weren't really for help, but a business transaction...

BTW, please don't bother to post from wikipedia when it comes to issues about politics... I know some people will try to quote wikipedia...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Just as every offer the States gives comes at a price...a missle there...and airbase here...cheaper goods....contracts....It happens all the time..So please do not try to make the States out to be saints...just as there are not any country out there that are saints....You see i am not in your same delusion....I see all countries more or less the same....this is not about countries...this is about Health care...so get off you high horse of being An American patriot...you were born in Cuba....Your Cuban.....think about it.
Now i told you before if you want me to take you down the road of history...I will wipe your bottom with it....but this thread is about HEALTHCARE...not the glorious American Constitution becuase i could also go and wipe your bottom with that too....and i like America and my many American friends...but do i like your American Goverment...and do a lot of your American compatriots...nooooooo
NOTE:I do this cause i know that healthcare would help out some of my american friend and it is not a bad thing as many of the rich lobby groups would have you believe...America has a good population base and it could be affordable and you could have a two tier system that would satisfy the rich...but the coporates don't WANT IT.