I spent 3 hours in the ER on the 15th. I just got my $11,000.00 bill in the mail.

reply to post by stumason

To be honest mate, you can preach "constitution" this and that as much as you like, but I wouldn't even wipe my arse with it as it's worth nothing, even to most Americans it seems.

Don't presume to speak for "most Americans", because you can't. True Americans cherish and protect our Constitution from enemies like the losers we wrested our freedom from.

You don't know your arse from your elbow when it comes to the Constitution.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by TexasChem
There is no difference between Communism and Socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end; Communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide.-Ayn Rand

...and Universal Health Care is patriotic. Americans are real big on pledging to the flag...as I said. Not so good at pledging to each other. Ok, your choice...but don't try and call it altruism...it's selfishness, pure and simple.

We take better care of our own. We like it that way.

So your idealogical view as to societies ultimate rule of thumb, is that it is selfish to uphold your convictions. You must sacrifice them to the convictions of others even unto the detriment of your well being?

Originally posted by NAeagle89
Should a healthy 21 year old male with no diseases, allergies, or major medical history have to pay high taxes to support "free healthcare" when they rarely use it; just playin devils advocate here....

Should non-smokers pay for smoking illnesses? Should those that eat right and exercise regularly pay for the illnesses of those that don't? Should those that don't sleep around pay for the STD consequences of those that do? And how much are you willing to spend to keep someone alive, especially if they refuse to reform themselves and stop smoking and overeating and sleeping around .. and begin exercising regularly?

Hey, if the oldsters tax the youngsters enough, they might get to live to see 100 years or more, ha. Yeah, damn man, I'm sold on this socialist health care stuff now, where we can enslave the young and healthy adults to keep us oldsters and sicksters alive until there is no more money or blood to suck and squeeze out of them suckers, ha. Yeah, let's take advantage of this situation. I want to live forever and maybe we can if, like vampires, we suck the life out of the young and healthy in order to benefit our sorry asses, ha. Yeah, man, how cool is that.

Wow - kinda makes me feel good to live in the UK.

I mean America has its good points, but your medical system really sucks. Over here in the UK we get FREE healthcare aswell as private healthcare.

Whereas in America it seems you punish the poor, the sick and the needy.

Shame.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

..

Care to tell us what in the world do you know about us to claim we don't care for human life?...

Hello.
Have you read the thread? Have you considered the actual and underlying meaning of the content of your own posts?

What we care for is that there is no need to be FORCED under another socialist doctrine to pay for anyone else.

Do you speak in the royal plural habitually, or is this a special occasion?
So, where do you stand on highways, law enforcement, and the fire departments? Are schools okay with you?
I'm curious as to where you draw the line.

You know nothing about me, however, one thing I have noticed in my 38 years of life in this planet and in this life is that people who normally like to claim, or brag about what wonderful human beings they are, are in fact the most stingy and uncaring people you can find anywhere.

There may be some truth there. But what is also true, maybe even truer, is that some people find caring about others, people they don't know, so completely foreign to themselves and their own character, they are unable to conceive and comprehend it's genuineness in others.

Consequently it's mistaken for a ruse,

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by buddhasystem
....
Western society is indeed based on principal of public welfare, because it's a crucial ingredient that enables capitalism to function without killing off citizens and/or causing unrest, upheaval and complete loss of civility. Somehow, here in the US, we are on the path just to that, despite us being less "socialist" than every single country in the wold.

Really? you call civility, and the epytome of a "civilized society" European nations, and other "more socialistic nations" which have had more violent revolts, riots, and in general are more violent than the U.S.?...

I visited a number of European nations over the years (and continue to do so on regular basis) and I can't stop laughing at your pronouncement. Denmark and Switzerland more violent than the U.S.? Think hard. Think harder. Think again.

Riots in France? Yes, large Muslim population in slums. Try that in your neighborhood. Student protests in the UK? Well, the students are at least protesting. Here, they play beer pong.

Oh hey, the UK must be an "extremely civilized society" they beat each other up over soccer games as well...

Yeah well they do a whole lot better than us when it comes to school shooting incidents. Did they have Columbine, Virginia Tech and other such incidents? I'm OK with a bloodied nose over a soccer game, compared to the slaughter we've got accustomed to, in the US.

The most recent comprehensive data I could find was from 2004/2005.
The ICVS and EU ICS cover ten conventional crimes, broken down into
vehicle related crimes (theft of a car, theft from a car, theft of a motorcycle
or moped, theft of a bicycle), burglary, attempted burglary, theft
of personal property and contact crimes (robbery, sexual offences and
assault & threat). In most countries in this report, questions have been
added to the questionnaire on experiences with street level corruption,
consumer fraud, including internet-based fraud and credit card theft,
drug-related problems and hate crime.
This report presents data from 30 countries, including the majority of
developed nations. Also the data from 33 main cities of a selection of
developed and developing countries are presented in this report. Altogether
data are presented from 38 different countries. For the first time
data are available on Hong Kong (Special Administrative Region of China
– SAR China) and Istanbul (Turkey). Surveys were also done in Mexico,
Johannesburg (Republic of South Africa – RSA), Lima (Peru), Buenos Aires
(Argentina), Sao Paulo & Rio de Janeiro (Brazil), Phnom Penh (Cambodia)
and Maputo (Mozambique).

While being correct about Switzerland you may have missed the mark with Denmark as your example Buddha.
Top 15 from highest to lowest level of crime victimization:

#1)Ireland
#2) England and Wales
#3)New Zealand
#4)Iceland
#5)Northern Ireland
#6)Estonia
#7)Netherlands
#8)Denmark
#9)Mexico
#10)Switzerland
#11)Belgium
#12)USA
#13)Canada
#14)Australia
#15)Sweden

reply to post by mr-lizard


We do have Medicaid which is fantastic, if you can get it. It's actually better than what many of us get with our private insurance.

But the barriers they put up to getting it are preposterous. It's seemingly designed to insure people don't meet the criteria.

If one calls the office for assistance, you quickly learn the office people have been hired, and their literal job, is to find a way to deny people.

But if you can get it, it's great. But they are going bust because the hospitals are billing them for absurdly exorbitant amounts of money. It's complicated and is derived from greed and incompetence. Of course, it's the poor who eventually pay the price for this greed and incompetency, which they have little or nothing to do with.

reply to post by Shamanistical


Nevermind. NEVERMIND.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
How many of us with insurance are blindly and dumbly paying the pre-corrected $11,000 amounts?

Ding ding ding! We have a winner. I work for one of the big health insurance companies, and medical providers "up bill" people that have insurance to fraudulent levels, frequently. If your doc orders some medical equipment for you, say a wheelchair, alot of the providers bill it piece by piece, seat, wheels, aremrests, etc. at an outrageous price for each piece. If you look online for the same item, you'll see it costs maybe a thousand or two, but after those billers are done, the same item will be billed ten thousand dollars easily in the end. Most folks don't read their EOB's or question it at all, even though those fraudulent providers are chewing up their DME max benefits and could care less. Be careful with your doctors office too, read your EOB sometime, you'll see they almost all bill 5 different codes for one 10 minute office visit, charging your insurance easily five hundred bucks, which comes back to everybody in higher premiums. If you try and fight it, many docs office's discharge you from care.

Really worry about USA attitude to Univeral Health Care.
My example, having worked as a Bank Teller, Accounts Payable/Receivable Officer, for your comparision.
Live Australia
Two children, both born in Public Hospital, first with complications, specialist gynecologist for delivery, developed infection, 21 day stay to discharge, 2nd child 3 day stay, discharged and re-admitted as both baby and I had severe chest infection, 7 day stay.
Appendix, admitted as emergency, surgery same night, 7 day stay to discharge.
Kidney stones x 2, both times admitted to hospital with blood in urine, kidney x-rays, and treatment, total of about 10 days.
Gallbladder, treated by local G.P. for Gastro, mis-diagnoses, admitted very ill with obstructed bile duct and jaundice, to ill to be operated on, ultrasound imaging moved stone, intravenous antibiotics, surgery after 9 days of treatment, very lucky to have survived this little adventure.
Cancer of Utereus, unusual bleeding in older lady, D & C, discharged. readmitted 7 days later, surgery, utereus, ovaries, and tubes removed, 10 days hospital.
Husband, never sick, now has heart issue, and prostrate, G.P., has referred to public hospital, and said if we dont get a letter by first week of Jan, giving us dates for admission, will send as emergency.
ALL NADA, NOTHING.
Are we ahead on our huge taxes, compared to user pays in U.S.A., yes I would think so just for myself, without my husband's fight ahead. Say a prayer for us.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Over here in the UK we get FREE healthcare aswell as private healthcare.

It's not FREE. Those that work and pay taxes are funding everyone's health care. Only those that do not work or refuse to work truly get FREE health care.
I agree that America's health care system sucks though.
I buy health insurance for me and my family. We pay a lot more than the value of the services we actually use. The truth of the matter is our premiums are artificially elevated to also pay for those with insurance from the same company that smoke, get STD's, aids, are obese....ect.
Even with private health insurance I am still paying for others who lead unhealthy lifestyles.

So what difference is it to me if I pay the insurance company or pay the government?

I'll tell you.....With private insurance I can always shop around for a more competitive rate or plan, I can even opt out if I want and choose some type of alternative medicine. Once I am forced to start paying the government my options will be severely limited. My dedicated health care funds will now be sent to the government in the form of increased taxes and some government bean counter will decide for me what treatments me and my family can have.
I know some of you will say that this currently happens with private insurance companies. They have to approve certain treatments before they agree to pay. True. But I can always tell them that I no longer will be a customer of theirs and will look for better insurance, one that fits my needs.
Can this be done in the UK or Canada? You may be able to buy private insurance, but that doesn't relieve you continuing to pay the mandatory taxes.

I still cherish the option of opting out all together. I am not one who will fiercely defend the current US system though. It is unsustainable and broken...even though many fail to recognize this fact.

reply to post by groingrinder


You were seen and not turned away. Did you think this visit would be free? So, make a payment plan and start taking care of yourself. I have insurance and still have to pay, which I do.

Originally posted by Sparky63
It's not FREE. Those that work and pay taxes are funding everyone's health care. Only those that do not work or refuse to work truly get FREE health care.

Dude, let's clarify that for a second. There are people who WORK and don't have enough coverage because the whole goddamn thing became so complicated (on behest of those who profit) in that it's both expensive and not transparent, requires large co-payments etc. I work, I have what most people consider a good insurance and even I feel the bite. If you listen you'll hear of people who perished of prostate cancer because they didn't muster enough money in a short enough time. With all due respect let's stop and thing the whole shebang over.

I agree that America's health care system sucks though.

Too categorical and for a wrong reason.

I buy health insurance for me and my family. We pay a lot more than the value of the services we actually use. The truth of the matter is our premiums are artificially elevated to also pay for those with insurance from the same company that smoke, get STD's, aids, are obese...

We (my family) also pay more (even when it's offset by my employer). I respect your opinion and share a part of it. Again, sorry but that's the price of escaping distopia when you have people dying on street corners. I totally agree if somebody doesn't use a rubber that's there fault is they get an STD. On the other hand, I can't help feeling that is a (relatively) simple cure is at hand, we need to help those who can't buy at store prices. OK, let me frame it -- I want people who commit such things to pay, but not with theit declining health and death. How to so it? Your guess is as good as mine.

Once I am forced to start paying the government my options will be severely limited. My dedicated health care funds will now be sent to the government in the form of increased taxes and some government bean counter will decide for me what treatments me and my family can have.

For 99% percent of population, there won't be a difference. With the wonderful (sarcasm intended) system in the US I was charged for an extra visit to a neurologist when I was suffering a severe pain due to some weird condition in my spine, even though I was "insured". C'mon, that's fascism plain and simple. There is a huge, influential and rich lobby that will wash your brain inside and out proving that Forefathers and the Constitution meant for this kind of things to happen. If you believe this, bend over for some anal fun.

reply to post by buddhasystem


Buddha please explain to me why you feel that you have the right to take one mans earnings by the threat of violence and give to another? This is looting.Robbery.Thievery.Stealing.

Money is made before it can be looted by the looters who take it from you by force or mooched by moochers who claim your product by tears. Money is made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. An honest man is one who does not consume more than he has produced. When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask or put place blame elsewhere, Who is destroying the world?' You are, by being conditioned to accept an unsustainable conundrum as the snake consumes his tail.

Originally posted by TexasChem
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Buddha please explain to me why you feel that you have the right to take one mans earnings by the threat of violence and give to another?

I'm not taking your money so for the face value your question is mis-constructed.

The "earnings" that are made are based on the society, and these depend on this society functioning in a predictable and stable manner. The highway you drive upon depends on repairs being done to it. Same goes to the society. You may take it for granted, but it's a complex system to be maintained if you ever hope to make earnings by functioning of same. If you don't comprehend it, you are just another freeloader.

Financial responsibility officer?....speaks volumes on the state of healthcare in the US, thankfully it's not at the point (just yet) where you must pay for all treatment/ meds etc upfront, if you cant pay please die outside the building from that gunshot wound....please away from the door, where someone could trip over you, or slip in your blood....thanks and have a nice day.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by TexasChem
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Buddha please explain to me why you feel that you have the right to take one mans earnings by the threat of violence and give to another?

I'm not taking your money so for the face value your question is mis-constructed.

The "earnings" that are made are based on the society, and these depend on this society functioning in a predictable and stable manner. The highway you drive upon depends on repairs being done to it. Same goes to the society. You may take it for granted, but it's a complex system to be maintained if you ever hope to make earnings by functioning of same. If you don't comprehend it, you are just another freeloader.

You have clearly stated that you agree with the principle of taking one mans earnings by the threat of violence and redistrubuting it as you deem fit so please don't dodge the bullet. I asked because I was genuinely interested in your belief.

I never said I was against a majority pooling their resources to accomplish something. Those same roads I drive upon are also maintained by my county government and the amount requested is voted upon by the constituents. I do not believe in victimless crimes nor do I believe it right to steal. I do believe mankind has the ability to provide help to his fellow man...but it should be at his discretion and ability to pay. Not forced upon him by a tyrannical government that has him enslaved so that those that do not earn can take his earned wealth by force. Our dear leaders take our wealth through the threat of violence and redistrubute it as they see fit and we pay them to do it! 160,000 to 194,000 a year with truly FREE healthcare, at least to them since they pay nothing.

reply to post by TexasChem

You have clearly stated that you agree with the principle of taking one mans earnings by the threat of violence and redistrubuting it as you deem fit so please don't dodge the bullet.

Unless you are an anarchist, you must support some level of taxation. So dont try to argue principles, since you already break them.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


well no i was the one who said those things about ussr...i am the one who keeps asking how healthcare leads to socialism...Now as for the thing about the protests in london and how the police chief want s to bann protests....he could want that....but it is not going to happen as there are prodedures to go through here in the Uk....basically he is trying to protect his job after being a fool for letting prince Charles travel right into the thick of the demonstrations.....So he has to come out tough against what happen...and over here if that is the case then the people will protest against it as they have some balls...and also...over here we don't have the fear of being shot by some over zealous police officers with a gun.
But i will ay this ..you have finally come back with a post actually showing a little respect in your reply....so good for that.
Now i would also ask....is Canada socialist...Is all countries in the EU socialist....Is Australia Socialist...I guarentee you will get some varied answers....Also the big Insurance companies are scammers and I would say that people are being blind when they are paying these over inflated prices....Insurance companies are out to make..LOTS ...of money and they certainly do not do that for your benifit do they.
The big Pharma are out to make huge sums of Money by over inflated pricing...and if there is no money in it like orphan deseases...then you are poopout of luck.
but i can see than you seem to be fixated against any minute bit of socialism as it has left a bad taste in your mouth...probably cause you have seen the extremesof it and think that it all leads to the extreme.

reply to post by Shamanistical


let me ask you this...if all those people you have just deemed les than people cause they may have some bad habits...had access to good health care do you not think that they might,possibly,maybe get some good health advise and maybe through good healthcare the percentages would be less.
Also with healthcare if an obese person requires an hip or knee operation they are inform that they usally need to get down to a certain weight to get the op....where as people from in the uk who don't like the answer will fly over to the states...pay some quack to do the OP cause all they care about is the money...come back and suffer severe complications....and then use the same healthcare system to get fixed up.
So to me...once again keep your capitalist uncompassionate society as i see it fail over and over.