I spent 3 hours in the ER on the 15th. I just got my $11,000.00 bill in the mail.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Don't you understand that with the government having control over healthcare they can force you to take vaccines, and force you to do what they want?...

I can tell you that if I am involuntarily forced to participate in a collective/socialised health care system that MUST accept everyone, they sure as hell BETTER force everyone to live healthy life styles.

No more smoking, or boozing, or drug abuse, or sleeping around, or not exercising, and more ... MUST be enforced.

I do not want to pay for the health care costs of those that aren't taking excellent care of themselves, no more than I would want to participate in an auto insurance pool that included drunken drivers!

If we are forced into socialized health care, I want EVERYONE up at 5 AM and ready for an hour of morning exercise. And cigarettes will have to be outlawed, as well as booze. And no more fast food, or fat people too. And the next person to get an STD will be sent to prison for damaging a socially insured national asset.

They better force good health because damned if I'll tolerate paying for the consequences of the irresponsible idiots out there that keep damaging their health!!!

or experienced what life is really like under a system where THE GOVERNMENT CONTROLS EVERYTHING...

It's because of stupid and irresponsible and unmotivated people that the government finds it necessary to intrude and involve itself in our personal lives, and that ticks me off a lot. You know, health care would cost a lot less if they simply make it a law that we all must take excellent care of ourselves.

If national health care does become reality, I'll be looking at smokers and fat people and those that don't exercise with disdain, they are a detrimental burden upon our society and nation, no better than those that have made living on welfare a career. Nobody should be able to take a dime out of my pocket because they smoked for 20 years and ate at McDonalds everyday, screw that idea, let them reap the consequences of their lifestyle choices. What has happened to personal responsibility and consequences?

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

What in the world makes you think that the government having control over healthcare means "everything is fine and dandy, and everyone lives in peace and harmony henceforth"?

It amazes me that people still blindly ape rhetoric designed to appeal to thier emotional hot-buttons.

HCR was ugly...basterdized...watered down...and largely skewed to benefit the insurance industry at least as much as US citizens...all to placate the relentless tantrums of the GOP.

That said it is an improvement on the system we have had....yes our healthcare system is that efed up.

What it wasn't...be any objective analysis was a government takeover...that was simply a well thought out lie meant to make people just like yourself react precisely in the manner you are.

PolitiFact's Lie of the Year: 'A government takeover of health care'

In the spring of 2009, a Republican strategist settled on a brilliant and powerful attack line for President Barack Obama's ambitious plan to overhaul America's health insurance system. Frank Luntz, a consultant famous for his phraseology, urged GOP leaders to call it a "government takeover."

"Takeovers are like coups," Luntz wrote in a 28-page memo. "They both lead to dictators and a loss of freedom."

The line stuck. By the time the health care bill was headed toward passage in early 2010, Obama and congressional Democrats had sanded down their program, dropping the "public option" concept that was derided as too much government intrusion. The law passed in March, with new regulations, but no government-run plan.

But as Republicans smelled serious opportunity in the midterm elections, they didn't let facts get in the way of a great punchline. And few in the press challenged their frequent assertion that under Obama, the government was going to take over the health care industry.

politifact.com...

This is what happens when you turn over responsibility to the government.
The gov't is incompetent to deal with market issues, period, end of story.

"The gov't can't provide booze and hookers to truckers in the desert, and they want to manage HEALTH CARE?" — Andrew Napolitano
In reference to the IRS takeover of the Mustang Range

Originally posted by ferumbra
reply to post by endtimer

 

endtimer this was sickest I ever read on ATS forum.

You are so sick that I created account just to replay to you and say what is on my mind.

I must congratulate you on one thing:
- You are expert in spreading hate. There is no other word for what you are saying. When I saw your post, I started to hate you, like I believe lots of other people.
I believe you wanted to do just that so you are successful hate spreader.

So if we know you are hate spreader, then we simply need to ignore you, and stop spreading your hate. That is only way to fight sick people like you. If I say to you what is on my mind, I would just do what you do, spread hate.

ggggggggggggzzzzzzz it is so hard not to say what is on my mind. You are very sick and brainwashed man and I personally doubt that you will change. It is because inside of you, you know that you are not right. Other option is that you spread hate by purpose.

First of all, you need to educate yourself, get your head out of the proverbial sand,
stop sniffing glue and read what I have said.
This must be the part where I don't sleep for the next month worrying about what
some non-existent teenager behind a glass box pecks out on his/her keyboard.
You obviously haven't begun living life, are totally clueless, live in a giddy tree
hugging fuzzy world, and obviously want everything handed to you by a tax payer
who has worked hard for their entire life.

Now back to subject. I hope the OP works it out somehow. gggggggggggggggzzzzzzzzzzz

reply to post by stumason


Originally posted by RichardA
Wonky ground? You don't see the difference in a company raising premiums to cover their costs and a government legislatiing my actions and choices. If I don't like the deal with the insurance company I have options. Tell me what options have I when the government tells me I HAVE to do something.



Then you woefully misunderstand the system I am defending. Who said in the NHS you don't have a choice? You do, actually. You can pick and choose your doctor, your hospital, you can even go abroad at the NHS expense if a particular specialist is a better choice.

Then, to add a further layer of greatness, most UK employers offer free private cover and one can also purchase your own from BUPA ir other providers. So, for example, if you have a dodgy knee like me, you can either elect to use the NHS and maybe wait a month for the op, or go private and have it done tomorrow.

REPLY: Ah but that is NOT the system they are creating here. Here with all the rules and regs private insurance is soon to be bankrupt. WHY you ask. Because the democrats and the President have already said that this is just a step toward a single payer system. If you like the NHS great. I would prefer to know that my insurance coverage is regulated not by the government but by free market forces which will reduce cost raise the quality of services and I get to decide.


Originally posted by RichardA
Why is that choice taken from me? For some feel good humanistic crap? Please try someone else.



It's not though, stop being a tool.

REPLY: When I am told that I HAVE to buy government approved insurance (at an estimated 15k/yr as Nancy Pelosi so blatantly stated), my choices are gone. tool that bro.


Originally posted by RichardA
I grew up in the governmental system and its a complete and total failure to the people it is supposed to help. It creates a dependency mindset which in turn creates an entitlment attitude which eventually blows up in your face because those who work and do the right things WILL get fed up.



Really? Where did you grow up?

Well, I started out in a hospital for malnutrition after my mother died and my father left me for dead. (Thank God for nosey neighbors) From there I was in orphanages, foster homes and the streets, ALL before the age of 7. Trust me i've lived the system from the inside. It is all about making people feel dependant on the system. "Do as we say or you'll find yourself in worse places." Ever had you safety on the line for sexual favors? Hmmmmm? Happens all the time in the system. Trust me America ain't all lollipops and unicorns. Most of the kids in the system don't make it. I wish I could find the stats on the number of unadopted kids who end up in the mental health or prison system. They would blow your mind. Any further information about my experiences as a child are a closed subject.

Originally posted by RichardA
Take care of yourself and stop expecting others to provide you with everything you want free of charge.



Again, you misunderstand (not sure if deliberately or whether you just have a comprehension problem). The NHS is not "free", it is bought and paid for by the people of the UK, for the people of the UK. And neither am I or anyone else advocating everything be free of charge, but it is regarded as the most fundamental service a Government that is truly looking after it's nations interests, not those of corporate masters, can provide.

REPLY: Great that is the NHS, we're talking about the American health care system, which differs from NHS. Who's got the comprehension problem?

Originally posted by RichardA
I am so sick of "I deserve this or that just because i'm a person." BullS**T. The only thing ever promised to you by the constitution is an equal opportunity. It never promises equal results nor should it ever try to create that. Use your opportunities and take your risks, be a man. You might actually feel good about your accomplishments.



To be honest mate, you can preach "constitution" this and that as much as you like, but I wouldn't even wipe my arse with it as it's worth nothing, even to most Americans it seems.

REPLY: Bro, I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America, I still live by that oath. If you think for one millisecond that 'most' Americans don't care about the Constitution you haven't been following the news here for the past year. Ever hear of the Tea Parties? Wonder why the democrats got their clock cleaned in the last election? One of the big points of the tea parties is the restoration of the Constitution as the rule of law in this country. Those who do not care for the Constitution in this country are a small yet very loudly vocal group. To be honest you wouldn't want to walk down the street in my neighborhood saying anything even remotely close to "wipe my arse with it". You wouldn't even make it to my house before an ambulance had to come take you away. Most of my neighbors are veterans and still live by the oath they took when they entered the service. They are NOT afraid to make sure that the Constitution IS defended from enemies, both foreign and domestic.
Stay in Britain bro, freedom and personal responsibility seem to be a foreign ideal to you.

reply to post by endtimer


I am truly sorry that you have taken so much flak in this thread for honestly expressing yourself. Please accept my apology. I never intended to beg for help in this thread and I never intended for it to be a bash endtimer thread. I believe the American health system is horribly broken. You have a different opinion. There is no reason for hatred to be exchanged over that. We simply disagree. Please people this thread is not about calling endtimer names. I should have stated that many pages ago. I am ashamed for not speaking sooner.

Originally posted by groingrinder
reply to post by endtimer

 

I am truly sorry that you have taken so much flak in this thread for honestly expressing yourself. Please accept my apology. I never intended to beg for help in this thread and I never intended for it to be a bash endtimer thread. I believe the American health system is horribly broken. You have a different opinion. There is no reason for hatred to be exchanged over that. We simply disagree. Please people this thread is not about calling endtimer names. I should have stated that many pages ago. I am ashamed for not speaking sooner.

Well thank you for the kind words. It seems I have stepped on the toes of a
lot of people that don't seem to know how things work presently in the US.
I have been through the good, bad and ugly. Speaking ones mind on this
website doesn't work very well except for the ones that don't understand a
single thing about life, unlike folks like you. I know you understand exactly
what is going on in this country. I truly know how our healthcare system,
and just about any other program ran by our inept government sucks to no
end. My point is that no one can do anything about it at the present time,
and we can all complain until Saudi Arabia becomes an iceberg.

It doesn't matter one tiny bit about how things are done in other countries,
how things should or should not be done here in the US. We all know it sucks.
Until something is actually changed, none of this bickering matters one iota.

It doesn't matter to me what people call me on this thread. No one knows me,
not 1 %. No one has a clue as to what I have gone through in my life. I just know
I am the one that has had to suck it up and find a way to take responsibility for
my own short comings and failures. I will repeat what I have said on numerous
posts and other threads here on ATS. When we stop the ridiculous job of invading
other countries and fighting so-called wars, and stop giving illegal thugs that sneak
into our country any and everything they "demand", maybe we will, in fact I know we
will, have more than enough money to feed, clothe, and have sensible health care for
everyone that needs it, without taking from people that "have".

I couldn't care less about the names that are thrown at me. I am a 3 year vet from
Vietnam, have more than paid my dues to our military, pay taxes, own my home, pay
my bills and have gone through the real hard knocks of life. I am simply tired of hearing
from those that have never had anything and expect society to somehow "give" them
their imaginary share. I am not cutting you down for not being able to work through
your financial problems. That is the rock and hard place you are in at the moment.
It will get better for you and I hope you accomplish your dreams you alluded to earlier.

My beef is with "some" of the other posters on this thread that don't have a clue, never will
and only want their entitlements. Where the crap are mine? Where's yours?
Some folks pure and simple want full socialism in this country. Well they just might get
what they wish for. The real problem with socialism is that you run out of everyone else's
money before long. Peace !!

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
The "slaughters" in the U.S. happen because the left has implemented "free gun zones" everywhere, including in Military bases...

OK. I mentioned Columbine and you EFFECTIVELY answer that "the left made schools into gun-free zones hence the left are responsible for Columbine massacre among other things".

Your answer to safety is to wear a personal defense weapon at all times, then you eat, sleep or go to crapper, starting from the 5th grade?

You, Sir, are insane.

reply to post by RichardA


I've discussed the US/UK comparison at length with my relatives in the US but it was not until my mother had a serious paralysing stroke that they understood the NHS (plus support services) in context.. from that point we where able to talk about how different both systems where and how far removed from NHS like systems the current proposals are.

In my world having a stroke is not the end of the world, but it seems for my insured relatives it is a great fear, one they would rather not live through.. which makes me sad as even insured it is that simple for them.. and my heart feels for my uninsured relatives.

I try not to get involved in these debates as we are comparing apples and oranges with the current systems, and proposed changes doesn't bring either system closer.. it just appears to my laymans eyes the current proposals just ensures big pharma get their $$, adding nothing of real value to the average American.

reply to post by groingrinder


It will get better, yes it sucks right now, but perhaps things will turn in a good direction for you from here. I know that our system is on the ropes but there are other things which we can do to fix it rather than hand it over to an inept government. Texas, for example started with tort reform, and malpractice insurance reform. Now, they have specialists in communities where ten years ago they didn't even have general practitioners. Costs have gone down, coverage has gone up. Hmmmmmm.............seems like something to think about instead of letting a government who can't even run the postal service in the black, take over the decisions in my medical care. Add in allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines and the costs will drop even further. These three things will work, they have worked and the lefties scream and scream about how unfair it is. Then again the Lawyers associations all donate to lefties in order to prevent caps on malpractice etc. One thing I haven't seen on here is a fact that most people seem to want to ignore, the insurance companies make barely 2% profit margin. How many companies can survive and improve their services with such a narrow profit margin. I'm not saying that they are fair to their consumers but because of the restrictions lefties have placed in the way of reform the insurance companies don't have to be.

This whole argument is pointless because until people wake up and realize that it is the leftist agenda to take more and more freedoms from people things will only get worse. Texas is the perfect example. If these changes were made nationwide, the insurance companies would be competing against each other for business which would in fact drive prices down and quality up. Once the government gets involved, well who can fight the government which has all of our tax dollars to fight any lawsuit. I personally can't afford an extended courtcase in order to gain services that I may need. I mean it may be okay for others that some poor guy got his penis chopped off because he didn't get the services he needed when he needed them, but I'm pretty sure he has another point of view on the matter. Welcome to Government rationed health care. Thanks but no thanks.

reply to post by buddhasystem


Buddah,
Sorry I have to take issue with your statement. Yes I believe that every man and woman should have available to them the means with which to protect themselves. If I want to carry a .45 strapped to my hip when I walk down the street, deal with it. If guns make you nervous move to Britain and see how safe you are in a gun free country. If you want you children's safety to depend on the response time of the local PD, then you are not thinking clearly. Lets be honest, a policeman's primary job is not to prevent crime but to clean up the mess after they have occurred. My son was taught how to use a gun by the time he was ten, he was also taught that there are consequences for using the gun in anything but a life or death situation. He just turned 19 and already has his first handgun, a 9 mil. (personally I think its a bad choice and prefer the .45 myself but hey that's just personal preference.) Those who are willing to give up freedom for safety deserve neither. (paraphrasing Ben Franklin)

Oh and just for thought. This quote is attributed to Winston Churchill, but it was originally from someone else.
"If your not a liberal at 20, you have no heart. If your not conservative by 40 you have no brains." (Maybe not word for word, but you get the gist of the comment)

reply to post by thoughtsfull


I agree, they are apples and oranges, however there are proven techniques out there but between big pharma and the tort lawyers in this country these suggestions have been demonized.. Big pharma needs to be looked at with a microscope. I believe that if the insurance companies and the state legislators actually worked in concert with one another, big pharma could be marginalized and forced into their proper role as a supplier, not a policy maker.

I personal despise and refuse most pharmaceuticals, I prefer homeopathic medications and to be honest, except for my blood pressure pills, I refuse to take anything that comes from a big pharmaceutical company.

Originally posted by RichardA
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Buddah,
Sorry I have to take issue with your statement. Yes I believe that every man and woman should have available to them the means with which to protect themselves.

I don't feel either way, but I do think you missed the point. Columbine students had no business or right to walk around armed to teeth. That's a fact (I hope) in any frame of reference.

If I want to carry a .45 strapped to my hip when I walk down the street, deal with it.

I really don't have a problem with that, really. Except it feels like I could strap a stone axe to my hip and howl at fool moon to appease spirits of the dead. As a society, we do need to move on from having to walk around armed and dangerous just to make sure you and your family are all right. I do like guns, by the way. A lot. The feel, the smell, the sound.

If you want you children's safety to depend on the response time of the local PD, then you are not thinking clearly.

Again, stone age approach. Well, I know I'm lucky -- the response time of my PD is pretty incredible (from experience), so indeed your mileage will vary.

He just turned 19 and already has his first handgun, a 9 mil. (personally I think its a bad choice and prefer the .45 myself but hey that's just personal preference.)

Aaah, the eternal argument among those who like guns I like Sig Sauer chambered for 9mm and it just rocks. Try one. Elegant and deadly accurate.

Those who are willing to give up freedom for safety deserve neither. (paraphrasing Ben Franklin)

Dude, you are so overdoing it.

reply to post by RichardA


Thanks for the reply.. it is a shame that these discussions tend to go off the rails.. I really wish there was a simple solution that gave Americans faith in a system that works for them.

Hope you have a happy new year from across the pond

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Happy new year to you also. Hope that snow melts for ya real soon, I despise winter and that four letter s word that invokes thoughts of cold winters (snow).

Happy New Year to all here on ATS. I would like to say that although I am a new poster here, I have been reading the site for quite a while, I'd like to thank everyone who has challenged my thinking and beliefs. Some things I have given great thought to and have found myself unable to give a cogent reason for why I believed somethings and have since opened myself to different theories and beliefs. Other things have solidified my thoughts in other areas. Thank you for allowing me to post and discuss issues, even if I sometimes come off as a tool. ( we all have our faults I guess.) Oh and by the way, can someone please explain to me how I can set my signature, I can't find the place to do it. I've been through my profile page and can't find the spot to put my signature in.

I like it how Obama stated that the UK's health system is "Orwellian" yet we all get free healthcare... and idiots believe this guy without looking at the facts.

In America you need health insurance then get scammed half the time when you need it...

In the UK you turn up to a hospital and get treated... maybe you guys dont have to wait around too much, I remember when i broke my arm I waited 5 hours to get it seen to, still it didn't cost a thing.

That's why I'm proud to be british. Health is always free! Education could be better... but that's the tories for you! IF we ever got rid of a free health care system their would be an outcry. It's far from being orwellian let me tell you that... probably one of the best healthcare systems in the world!

reply to post by endtimer


hey vet, you poor human vet yeah !!!! you have all medic aid you need of course but other fellows do not have that, so what ??? have to wait for dying if they cannot pay ?? you are really a poor human being, a vet, yeah a big big vet !!! you think you are smart ??? you take your big gun ??? you big mamma ??? normally I respect vets, because they also are victims of the system, but you ??? you are really a big big victim without human feelings, a alien I think, one with a big moustache and a big one between your ???? .....
a vet ???? come on !!! you really need some human education, some human feelings, I think you are a alien, come on get out of the box and tell us you are so smart !!!
I hope you feel some day the pain of all the people you hate because they are sick !! have a happy vet year !!!
big kisses vetteke !!!

Originally posted by plube

You know something Electric...no one has the ability to indoctrinate me into any of their political...or religious beliefs....Do know you why?

That's what you think but the reality is far from what you think.

Originally posted by plube
It is because i have free will....I have the abiity think for myself...Now that is freedom

What's free will when your government controls every aspect of your life?...
Already your government and chief of police are mulling over the posibility of taking away your freedom to peacefully protest, and i tell you what, people like you will eventually accept it because you will, or already believe "it is for the good of all"...

Originally posted by plube
Freedom is not written on a piece of paper...it is not instituted by a document...it is not something that has to be assigned by an outside body.

No, and the Constitution of the U.S. clearly says every one is "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." But i will tell you something else, unless such a document exists, and is ingrained in a nation and it's people, such rights are taken away by corrupt, rich people who always want more control.

They are already trying to strip our rights even when in a country like the U.S. we have documents like the Constitution, and Bill of Rights which are the building blocks of the Republic of these United States.

Originally posted by plube
Freewill was mine at birth...but having that freewill does not mean i will always be healthy...and if there are systems that can benifit people in a positive way...and using my freewill...i am able to decipher wether it is a good thing or a bad thing...that is not a bad thing.

If documents like the Constitution of the United States, and the Bill of Rights didn't exist, and if they are destroiyed by the Feds/rich elites like they want and have been doing future generations are indoctrinated into forgetting those rights and freedom "for the good of all"...