Violent Anti-Mosque crowd turns on Black Carpenter

reply to post by insideNSA

This is an obvious provocation and it is wrong.

It that why some member posted a 5 year old News Story about Indonesia today as an anti-Muslim provocation.

Yes I agree that's just wrong.

It amazes me the number of people who think you can put out fire with gasoline.

What really amazes me is their inability to admit that is precisley what they are attempting to do.

That particular member today trying to make it look like something that happened 5 years ago happened today, and something that happened during a conflict in another nation 5 years ago all has something to do with what they termed a "Victory Mosque" that they didn't want to see built.

So we have a lot of people being provocative, acting as agent provocateurs, unable to understand that the only controversy is the one they are creating, because they don’t understand that the 1st Amendment to the Constitution really is there for a reason.

A reason to prevent the kind of persecution they are attempting to instigate in a provocative way.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler



Did you bring any counter arguement to the table here? I didn't see one.

Then you reference another thread in an attempt to by sly. But what you didn't do is read the last post on that thread Also while you reading that, consider that a certain poster in the 'Target Iran' thread presented references from 2004. I pointed this out, but because the article was somewhat anti-american and conspiratorial it didn't seem to matter.



I think there is a certain member that was complaining in another thread that posters should 'stay on topic'. And was attempting to police a thread because Stormdancer brought points up that, while true, you didn't agree with. Just like a *snip* to have a double standard as you jsut clearly went off topic here on this thread. Shall I quote you from the other thread?

Mr proto man, sometimes the truth hurts. It might not fall into your liberal ideology and you seem you just dont know how to deal with that.

Standard *snip* double standards boy,
I bet this traveler has Obama bumper stickers all over his car. And I bet this same traveler has a Nancy Pelosi poster up on his/her wall.

admin edit: removed childish name calling



[edit on 8-23-2010 by Springer]

Originally posted by maybereal11
Then a second voice speaks to me...they are ours. They are Americans too, whatever there behavior or motivations. Together we stand or divided we fall?

So rather than further the division...how do we get all Americans to stand together again...We don't have to share the same religion, opinion, race etc....just stop listening to the voices of division and think about solutions that work and preserve who we are as a nation. Short of another 9-11 how do we UNITE? That is the question that I keep wondering about.

Any takers?

Perhaps making an effort to stop calling people bigots would be a good start.

Considering that 70% of Americans oppose the building of the mosque, perhaps it would be wise to tone down the hateful rhetoric coming from many people who support the mosque?

reply to post by fooks


I honestly would like to know what you were quoting because your little meltdown of a post was utterly incomprehensible.

I am assuming that pointing out that the building being protested is not actually at ground zero will just be lost on you and your misplaced sense of patriotism. So I will refrain.

On a personal note I would suggest, for future reference, that you try and polish your debate style a bit. Vitriol, name-calling, and hyperbole only serve to make your position look weak and gives the impression that you lack the intellect and social graces to engage others in a meaningful and rational manner.

[edit on 8/23/10 by GENERAL EYES]

reply to post by insideNSA


Neither would be the case, the thread I was referring to is a documented provocation, not an imaginary one.

It's not speculative, they laid it all out there for people to see.

No guessing games required.

So in reality while people who want to make accusations they themselves consider slanderous against those they don't agree with, all they are further doing is displaying their own long list of hates of people and things they don't like, and then wanting anyone who doesn't agree with them and join in them in hating those things, to then be placed in that 'group' they don't like.

So once more just more baseless provocation.

So one might ask themselves if a person is so predisposed to be provocative in such a way, where what they imagine are indictments of the person, that they level are arrived at purely through speculation, then how many facts do they have in regards to the other things they are promoting.

That's the problem, when provocative and angry people simply want to incite others.

They stop thinking, they stop checking facts, they don't actually care, they just want what they want, and will do what ever they can to dominate others to get it.

Even if it means making things up, even if it means making blanket assumptions about people and things they know absolutely nothing about.

Thanks for providing an excellent example of how some people do this, when they fail to make convincing arguments.

Wth? They're protesting something that doesn't even exist? Media brainwashing works that well in US? Next thing they should try is to make up a story of pedo elves from never never land and see how many show up to protest them.

reply to post by MCAinSTL


" I find it amazing that everyone is quick to call the anti-mosque protesters bigots. I guess you all have been reading Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" where he says to ridicule your opponents and accuse them of racism.

Maybe those people remember their friends jumping out of the twin towers to keep from burning. "

Really ? I mean , REALLY ?

Did you even stop to THINK before posting that nonsense ?

Maybe that guy had friends who were in the towers or even jumped from them to keep from burning too . Ever consider that ? Maybe he lost someone on one of the planes ? Or the Pentagon or Shanksville ?

Or , is it possible that he couldn't have suffered any losses , simply because he was a black man and wore a certain type of cap ?

How ridiculous can you get , to somehow justify the actions of those people , by suggesting that maybe they had friends who died that day , therefore it was okay for them to act like total IDIOTS ?



[edit on 23-8-2010 by okbmd]

First of all, I'm a supporter of the Mosque and feel that Americans have no right to dictate where a Mosque can or can't go, along with any other building.

With that being said, could you imagine if that was a white guy, interupting an Obama rally or "black-pride" event? He wouldn't make it out of there intact and the media would probably justify the assault/murder, while praising the thugs who did it.

On another note, the title is a little misleading and made it sound like they were lynching the guy for his race. In fact, I wouldn't expect anything less, though I'm not saying that what they did was right. What else would you expect when you have people protesting Islam, yet an African American walks in the middle of the crowd wearing what looks like a Islamic skull-cap and prayer beads? Of course he is going to be provoked. In fact, I was surprised at how reserved the crowd was.

Again, I'm a supporter of the Mosque and so have absolutely no bias towards those people protesting it and in fact, I'm ashamed at what they are doing, in the supposed "land of the free".

--airspoon

[edit on 23-8-2010 by airspoon]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Neither would be the case, the thread I was referring to is a documented provocation, not an imaginary one.

thank you for proving my point about you.

I had to stop reading right there.

Please explain to me... how soley citing a factual news article from 2005 is any sort of provocation?

is it again, because you don't like what it says?

as i said, sometimes the truth hurts. but that doesn't mean its any less real OR a provocation. facts are facts. and when you start weeding out things because 'you don't like them' you get a slanted view on things...

So once more just more baseless provocation.

if protoman doesn't like a factual news article its 'baseless provocation'

but if its something he agrees with its the truth and ok

i think you just lost any credibility you had left



[edit on 23-8-2010 by insideNSA]

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by fooks

 

I honestly would like to know what you were quoting because your little meltdown of a post was utterly incomprehensible.

I am assuming that pointing out that the building being protested is not actually at ground zero will just be lost on you and your misplaced sense of patriotism. So I will refrain.

On a personal note I would suggest, for future reference, that you try and polish your debate style a bit. Vitriol, name-calling, and hyperbole only serve to make your position look weak and gives the impression that you lack the intellect and social graces to engage others in a meaningful and rational manner.

wow just wow!

look, it's too close. full stop.

don't try to patronize me either. lol, weakness.

you like innuendo and my position is strength, read the constitution.

as to social graces, i can hold my own. lol.

anyway, i can go with the flow.

reply to post by insideNSA


It should be fairly obvious that events in Indonesia, that does not have the United States Constitution, are entirely unrelated to what goes on here in the United States of America.

A small civil war in a remote part of a third world country, versus how the Constitution of the United States is meant to protect the very thing you fear, religious persecution, yet are ironically promoting, religious persecution!

So trying to make all these truly unrelated, and truly old events tie in to the mosque and community center being built in New York City is just being provocative and trying to promote blind fear, as a tool to do the very thing you are afraid Muslims might do to you, which is persecute you.

Now if you actually had an example of a Muslim, an American Islamic Citizen persecuting you because you weren't Muslim, then you might actually have something.

Serbian Christians, butchered Muslims in mass during the Bosnian Civil War, so should Muslims be running around the net using 20 year old attrocities in a war zone as a means to incite persecution of Christians?

Christians would be up in arms being lumped together like that, stating the obvious, wait, we weren't there, we had nothing to do with it.

You certainly want judged as an individual held only accountable for your own actions, yet, you want to judge whole groups wholesale for the acts of a few.

The only people responsbile for any attrocity are the ones carrying it out.

Those who are attempting to commit an atrocity against the constitution of the United States are personally accountable for their own actions.

See how that works, the actions of another don't excuse the crimes committed by others, trying to use them as an excuse.

I saw no violence in the video. All I saw was people exercising their right to free speech and non-violent protest.

The only physical contact I saw was a a couple guys patting the black guy on the shoulder, a couple more shaking his hand at the end of the video.

Since when does expressing your opinion equal violence?

Originally posted by GENERAL EYES

70% of Americans?

Or 70% of Americans polled?

I certainly wasn't asked. Were you?

Polls don't need to ask everyone, only a representative sample to draw statistical conclusions, within a confidence interval, about the characteristics of a larger population. The minimum size of a representative sample to have any statistical validity is 30. The CNN/Opinion Research survey questioned 1,009 adult Americans so it is actually very significant statistically.

The actual results within a 99% confidence interval were:

Favor 29% +/- 3%
Oppose 68% +/- 3%
No opinion 3% +/- 3%

Statistically, with a 99% confidence we know that 65 to 71% of Americans oppose the building of the mosque.

We also know, with a 99% confidence, that only 26 to 32% of Americans support it.

i2.cdn.turner.com...

Perhaps a minority of only 26 to 32% of Americans should consider being less abusive and divisive towards 65 to 71% of the US population?

someone really needs to do something about dumb americans. i hope the protesters get suicide bombed. now that we are pulling out some of our troops maybe we can get some muslims to start suicide bombing america instead of their own country.

reply to post by fooks


Read the Constitution? You mean the one that says if you don't want Muslims building things on their own property, then they cannot do so?

This is cut and dry. They own the land. They have legally zoned the land for the use they intend. Where in the Constitution, or any other legal precedent in this nation, is that considered wrong?

The arguments I have heard against this building have been so backwards as to actually become almost confusing.

This is a slap in our face
This is a step towards Shariah law
It's on holy ground!!! (incorrect)

What part of this next statement is so hard to grasp;

If we allow anybody to be excepted from freedom in this country, for any reason, we only diminish our own freedom in the process.

The man in the video was accosted by a mob. How can you justify this on any level? Mobs are never right and always end up showing the worst of what humanity has to offer.

This is the same kind of blind hate that plagued this nation for so long and caused the fifties and sixties to be such a blight upon American history.

No true American can brandish the Constition in pursuit of hatred or intolerance. When they do it just proves that they have no understanding of the document in their hand.

[edit on 8/23/10 by Hefficide]

woaahhh... HOLD UP now. i'll do you a favor and explain the relevance.

But firstly, YOU brought this off topic subject up on this thread. and this is after you just gave Stormdancer hell because you claimed what she posted was 'off topic' though as other posters pointed out, it wasn't.

you didn't like it because StormDancer brought up that Miss America, the Muslim from Lebanon expressed with other Muslims that they don't agree with the Mosque being built near ground zero.

What this news article points out is that Christianity and Christians aren't always accepted with the same open arms that Muslims are in America.
Three girls were beheaded because they were Christian. I'm sorry you can't see the relevance here.

Indonesia is a muslim dominant country. And this article just explains how you can be killed if you are Christian in a muslim country.

And its not just Indonesia.

Where Faith Costs the Most

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by insideNSA

 

It should be fairly obvious that events in Indonesia, that does not have the United States Constitution, are entirely unrelated to what goes on here in the United States of America.

A small civil war in a remote part of a third world country, versus how the Constitution of the United States is meant to protect the very thing you fear, religious persecution, yet are ironically promoting, religious persecution!

So trying to make all these truly unrelated, and truly old events tie in to the mosque and community center being built in New York City is just being provocative and trying to promote blind fear, as a tool to do the very thing you are afraid Muslims might do to you, which is persecute you.

Now if you actually had an example of a Muslim, an American Islamic Citizen persecuting you because you weren't Muslim, then you might actually have something.

Serbian Christians, butchered Muslims in mass during the Bosnian Civil War, so should Muslims be running around the net using 20 year old attrocities in a war zone as a means to incite persecution of Christians?

Christians would be up in arms being lumped together like that, stating the obvious, wait, we weren't there, we had nothing to do with it.

You certainly want judged as an individual held only accountable for your own actions, yet, you want to judge whole groups wholesale for the acts of a few.

The only people responsbile for any attrocity are the ones carrying it out.

Those who are attempting to commit an atrocity against the constitution of the United States are personally accountable for their own actions.

See how that works, the actions of another don't excuse the crimes committed by others, trying to use them as an excuse.

[edit on 23-8-2010 by insideNSA]

reply to post by 5 oClock


"Do you remember how you felt this day?? I will never forget.
I have been to Ground Zero, Shanksville and the Pentagon."

Aren't you special. I have been to Ground Zero, was raised around the Pentagon. I was also in the Army and went to Dachua while stationed in what was then West Germany.

I remember what I felt each time, but mostly I remember Dachau as an example of what a nation full of fascist lunatics are perfectly willing to do to millions of their fellow citizens just because they don't like them much.

Ground Zero? I remember it as a sad place where 3,000 people from around the world were murdered by a handful of crazed zealots taught to hate trying in their feeble way to attack a nation that has screwed with their brethren for decades with impunity.

Which do I find scarier? Not even close -- Dachau. Our threat is ignorance and it is internal, people like you think. I am not afraid of Islam coming and imposing Sharia on me or my children.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Perhaps making an effort to stop calling people bigots would be a good start.

That is precisely what I was calling for...did you read my post?

Originally posted by ollncasino
Considering that 70% of Americans oppose the building of the mosque, perhaps it would be wise to tone down the hateful rhetoric coming from many people who support the mosque?

Are those the choices? Supporting the building of the Mosque there...or opposing it?

You are stuck in a "division" "binary" "either/or" mindset. It's a false choice that is being put to you by the media for the sake of a culture war.

I choose none of the above.

I choose what our founding fathers chose..."Freedom of religion"

I support the rights of American citizens to build a house of worship of thier own choosing on private property.

I think it is precisely these times, now more than ever, that call for us not to compromise the principles that define us as the greatest nation on earth.

None of that speaks to my opinion of whether they should build it there.

But I will support thier right to...because their rights are my rights.

BTW - If you are going to drop a stat...give a link...otherwise it is just noise.

reply to post by insideNSA


Thanks for admitting that yes threads about murders that took place during a civil stife in Indonessia have nothing to do with what goes on in America.

The relevance of course is people attempting to be provocative to incite emotional reactions.

You know the kind of people who deliberately alter another members screen names in an attempt to be insulting and provocative.

I guess it helps to have friends like mentioned that support such posting tactics, but it's still provocative, and still an alteration of the facts.