The hypocritical opposition against the NY mosque

This whole mosque issue is idiotic to me.

Heh, when a Christian church can be built in Mecca, then I will be happy to "allow" a mosque to be built somewhere near Ground Zero.

This isn't about Saudi Arabia and that country's policies and culture. It's about the U.S. where everyone is supposed to have some sort of rights that are the same as anyone else.

Yes! It's hypocritical to oppose the building of this mosque, as expressed in the OP.

I've read all the horror stories about Islam and "symbol of Islamic victory" by allowing this mosque to be built. Jeeze!

Here I thought I was a rather conservative sort of person, but suddenly, I must be a radical liberal lefty.

Note to self: Add addendum 8 to my Kill Me If list. Dear Daughter Number Two, kill me if I agree with Barak Obama, except concerning his opinion that the mosque should be built.

Obviously, I am not in my "right" mind concerning this issue.

Originally posted by Liberal1984
The OP has produced such a politically intolerant, anti-Christian, anti Western, and anti American thread!!!

First of all I am Christian and I make an effort to attend church every Sunday. I do believe in God and while I find some parts of the bible questionable I am still of that faith. My analyse over the actions of Christianity was not anti anything as I point was that there have been just as many injustices committed in the name of Christianity as there have been for Islam. You cannot pick and choose how differently you are going to react to the actions of one individual under a religion and another under another religion. Its hypocritical.

Translation: You (along with others “brainwashed” by the Political Correctness, defining, mass media) are going to discriminate against anyone who opposes the Mosque, next time they open they’re mouth.

I never once said nobody had the right to speak out against the mosque. I did however state clearly that nobody has the right in stopping that mosque being built. This is a free country and if church's could be freely established in the area so can mosque's, so can temples and what have you. We cannot allow a mob of angry people to dictate who puts where.

Translation: Anyone you disagree with over Gays or Religion, has no right to turn to the Constitution

Again, you are mixing my argument with 'freedom of speech'. My OP is not about freedom of speech, my argument is about so called constitutionalists who support dictating who can buy what and where, who can marry who when the constitution says and dictates otherwise. Marriage should not be apart of our laws in the first place as it is a religious ceremony and nobody has the right to dictate what religious establishment can be built. It is against our constitution.

Name me one U.S president who wasn’t either Christian or (maybe) Jewish?

Thats was to the point of that comment , Im glad you got it. I do not think jefferson was really religious, rutherford was agnostic I believe as was Andrew Johnston. The rest were of a Christian demonination.

America became the wealthiest, most technologically progressive (and sometimes even in democratic politics), anywhere in the world under Christian hands.

So because of this, the equal violent actions in the name of Christianity cannot be held as accountable as Islam? Really? Thats logic for ya.

Southern “Guardian” Your knowledge of all the views, of all the people, who oppose the mosque must be all encompassing. I mean how else can you label an entire movement hypocritical.

Where did I say all Christians? Maybe you should read my OP again. I know its long but atleast get a read of the key words and my positive mention of good Christians.

Maybe these Muslims are dedicating this Mosque to the wrong God, maybe it should be you?

You are amazing!

I don’t worship the Christian God,

and yet I could swear you were the spokesperson for Christian fundalmentalism.... ah impartiality. Always a good card to pull out in an argument.

Christianity is guilty of this too,

and yet your arguing against the point of my OP.

I'm not a Christian,

Right. I am almost certain of that.

I don’t even think Muslims did 9/11

and yet your so defensive to my OP.

But then I view Islam as a destructive, cultural influence,

But not Christianity? Right? hmm....

Oh how the ignorant speak as if they are enlightened....you clearly are not a student of history, you clearly are not informed of the facts concerning where the money for this project is coming from, and you clearly are one who has a huge chip on your shoulders for those who call themselves Christians...

reply to post by Rockstrongo37


Oh, so all those facts about Christianity over the times are false? Is that all? Nothing else? Ok.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian


But that is not where the buck stops when it comes to noting the hypocrisy from the critics of this mosque. When we look to events that were heavily influenced by Christian fundamentalism we see a totally different attitude and response from the same kinds of people in the opposition today.

Christian extremists had committed and supported more injustices in this country than those of Islam or any other religion over the years. Let us not forget that the vast majority of our presidents were Christians and many admitted that Christianity influenced in one way or another the way they ran the nation. Many Christians justified and supported all kinds of injustices, so I am just astonished at how people are so quick to forget and point to Islam and only Islam as some threat.

It was no secret that many 'Christians' justified and supported slavery in the name of the religion:

Jefferson Davies:

"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America

Rev Furman:

"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., a Baptist pastor from South Carolina.

www.religioustolerance.org...

There were a minority of Christians that had opposed Slavery at that time while unfortunately most either supported it or justified it in some way or another. When large global Christian establishments such as the Church of England supported and justified slavery for years in the past, you would have known how wide spread so called Christians at the time believed these actions were justified:

The Church's missionary arm, the Society for the Propagation of the Faith in Foreign Parts, owned the Codrington plantation in Barbados and slaves had the word "Society" branded on their chests with red-hot irons.

The Synod was told that the society's governing body included archbishops of Canterbury. Bishops of London and archbishops of York were involved in its management.

One archbishop, the Most Rev Thomas Secker, wrote to a fellow bishop in 1760: "I have long wondered and lamented that the Negroes in our plantation decrease and new supplies become necessary continually.

"Surely this proceeds from some defect, both of humanity and even of good policy. But we must take things as they are at present."

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Many Christians in England and even some within these United States stood for the end of slavery in one way or another, but many many more Christians supported and helped promote and profit off the backs of slaves. Their actions at that time were of no difference to the actions of many Islamic extremists at present or even in the past. Many Muslims held slaves in the same manner but let’s not forget that Christians held the same or further guilt for this.

..But hold on a minute SG! Those slaves were not all murdered in the name of Christianity right?

You use 3 terms above interchangeably, Christians, Christian Extremists, Christian Fundamentalists. Which faction do you really mean to talk about?

Do you have any idea what a true Christian is? No you have No Clue.

Do you know what defines a Christian? What a christian believes? No, you have No Cue.

Yes, horrible things were done in the name of God and Christianity,

BUT THOSE PEOPLE WERE NOT CHRISTIANS.

The Pope, (Crusades) Not Christian.

The Church of England, Not Christian.

Preachers advocating Slavery, & Jefferson Davis Not Christian.

Pat Robinsons may be a Christian but his statements on Haiti have some historical truth to them though the man is very old and put his foot in his mouth buy stating his position very badly.

Do some biblical research to find out just exactly what a christian is, how one becomes a Christian, what they believe and how they are to act if they are true Christians.

I use my knowledge of these things to hold the people you site up to a mirror to see if they meet the qualifications and they do not!

These things have been reported to make true Christians look bad when in fact, no true Christian could have done any of the things above you credit them for.









[edit on 14-8-2010 by JohnPhoenix]

reply to post by Southern Guardian


You arent simply ignorant of the facts behind this project, but now your clearly oblivious to my point as well.

Debating with you will be a waist of my time, but many who see what I said will understand my point...

reply to post by Rockstrongo37


Oh? And what are the "facts" about where this money is coming from?

You might be interested in this CNN radio interview on this topic religion.blogs.cnn.com...

reply to post by Rockstrongo37


I am a Christian and Southern Guardian is absolutely right.

Originally posted by Rockstrongo37
You arent simply ignorant of the facts behind this project,

These 'facts', whatever facts you take from whatever websites or media outlets you choose to go to, are irrelevent to whether they are allowed to build a mosque there or not. You do not have the right to dictate who can build what as to where to worship whom, period.

a waist of my time,

The why did you both to participate in this thread and respond to me? Run along now.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


You do of course realize that your attempt to to define Christians could just as easily be used from the other side of the "fence".

Weaksauce, try again.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


I responded because your arrogance needed to be challanged, your ignorance needed to be questioned, and your inability to grasp the entire picture here needed correction...sorry if I upset you.

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
You use 3 terms above interchangeably, Christians, Christian Extremists, Christian Fundamentalists.

The point of my thread was that there have been many actions done in the name of Christianity as those of Islam. If you read my OP you also would have noted that I mentioned good Christians. There have been just violent actions committed in the name of Christianity as in the name of Islam, and those who insist this mosque should not be allowed to built over the actions of afew on 9/11, they continue to ignore this fact over Christianity or just push it aside.

Do you have any idea what a true Christian is?

I know what a true Christian is. I know what a true Muslim is. However people opposing this mosque could not tell that difference when it came to true good muslims and those 19 hijackers.

Do you know what defines

I know they'd spend their time better minding to their own actions as oppose to others. I was a bible group not too long ago and the discussion was that you should mind your own actions, recognise your own role as a christian as opposed to spending your time pointing at others. That is not what true Christianity is about.

Yes, horrible things were done in the name of God and Christianity,

Well then you agree with my OP! Wonderful!

BUT THOSE PEOPLE WERE NOT CHRISTIANS.

Neither were those 19 hijackers true muslims who pray in peace and live in peace.

These things have been reported to make true Christians look bed when in fact, no true Christian could have done any of the things above you credit them for.

Wonderful. Now apply that to Muslims and the 19 hijackers and then we will finally get on the same page.

[edit on 14-8-2010 by Southern Guardian]

reply to post by Southern Guardian


I'm just disgusted when I see my fellow Americans opposing this Mosque. This mosque offered us an opprotunity to show that our culture could be tolerant of normal peaceful Muslims and distinguish between them and the extremists who attacked us on 911.

Ordinary American Muslims are as far removed from the terrorists as American Christians are from their witch burning brethren in the Dark Ages.

The first amendment is clear, treat all religions equally, don't show preferential treatment.

If the Westboro Baptist church is allowed to stay standing than this Mosque should definitely be allowed to be built.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by L1U2C3I4F5E6R
This Mosque is really becoming a thorn in the side of people. Maybe it needs to be looked at again by the people who have the power to make these types of calls.

Nobody deserves the power of dictating who is allowed to buy property where, or where you choose to establish a place of worship.

My thread is based on the christian hypocrites in the opposition, not necessarily just about whether the mosque should be allowed or not.

No you are right. Nobody deserves that right but life and society is set up that way. You can not buy property on the lawn of the white house. There are government laws that are there to protect the public interest but have got out of hand.

religion already gets enough tax breaks and preferential treatment that now and again its good to bring them back to earth. After all if god were really on their side there would be problem for them getting approval, permission and support.

Originally posted by Rockstrongo37
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

I responded because your arrogance needed to be challanged, your ignorance needed to be....

You're still here? Why are you still responding to this thread?

Originally posted by sassyncute
No you are right. Nobody deserves that right but life and society is set up that way. You can not buy property on the lawn of the white house.

Well that depends. Was the lawn put up for sale to the public? Mind you that would be an excellent catch for a property. I mean imagine living right next to the whitehouse? It should take some getting use to the camera's and all but her, what a life? Can you imagine?

There are government laws that are there to protect the public interest

While that is true the property purchased was not public property. It was not in the middle of central park, or on the whitehouse lawn, or in the middle of yellow stone. It was private property sold to private buyers who intend to open it up as a public worshipping center for muslims.

I do get the feeling you understand that your point is like comparing apples to oranges. If a property is up for market to a private buyer, you have no right to dictate otherwise.

religion already gets enough tax breaks and preferential treatment

And it should not be that way. Faith alone should be enough. I fail to see where the established wealthy christian majority of this nation need a helping hand from the government in anycase?

After all if god were really on their side there would be problem for them getting approval, permission and support.

So this is your personal religious belief getting in the way of their constitutional rights? I don't God really cares to be frank. God is only worried about our actions as Christians and how we can bring about saving more non-christians. He is not concerned about other believers minding their own businesses.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Thankyou for being the few to understand and agree! I do believe this would have been an excellent opportunity to bring muslims and christians together as neighbours in understanding, living in harmony. If anything one of the core goals of those hijackers that day and even many christians among the opposition to this mosque was to maintain division because without division, their goals are not made possible.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Yes, horrible things were done in the name of God and Christianity,

Well then you agree with my OP! Wonderful!

BUT THOSE PEOPLE WERE NOT CHRISTIANS.

Neither were those 19 hijackers true muslims who pray in peace and live in peace.

These things have been reported to make true Christians look bed when in fact, no true Christian could have done any of the things above you credit them for.

Wonderful. Now apply that to Muslims and the 19 hijackers and then we will finally get on the same page.

I am a Christian and I disagree with the Mosque. If this was just a regular mosque I would have no problem with it being built so close to the 911 site. But there are several issues here. It is a large "center for learning" that any Muslim affiliation will be able to use for what ever they want - this means the extremists can use it too.

The people raising money for and building the center has already had ties to the extremists Muslin movement. This is well documented.

Even Muslims who are the good non extreme Muslims know this and publicly denounce this mosque saying the extremists want this built close to the 911 site on purpose to thumb their noses at America and start trouble. Tons of Muslims are against this center being built.

It's a sensitivity issue. If Christian Extremists blew up a seat of power in Islam and non extreme Christians knew it would be an unpopular move to build a Christian church near the site, and cause strife and dissension they would not build it.

[edit on 14-8-2010 by JohnPhoenix]

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
I am a Christian and I disagree with the Mosque. If this was just a regular mosque I would have no problem with it being built so close to the 911 site. But there are several issues here. It is a large "center for learning" that any Muslim affiliation will be able to use for what ever they want - this means the extremists can use it too.

It is a large community center that anyone can use. Why would the extremists want to use it? They can use any number of places and not have to trip over 500 strollers in the lobby

The people raising money for and building the center has already had ties to the extremists Muslin movement. This is well documented.

This has not been well documented. The blogs I've seen make these connections make connections this way: The imam's wife's uncle's former mosque on Long Island has a website link to a group that I think is a terrorist front (that's an actual example).

The mosque and the community center are set up as two separate corporate entities, neither of which has funding yet and both of which have agreed not to take funds from organizations on the Treasury Department's watchlist.

Even Muslims who are the good non extreme Muslims know this and publicly denounce this mosque saying the extremists want this built close to the 911 site on purpose to thumb their noses at America and start trouble. Tons of Muslims are against this center being built.

A handful of Muslims have written opinion pieces to this effect. So far as I've seen none have any actual knowledge of the imam leading this mosque, or his motivations. Most seem to be driven by concern that public perceptions about this mosque will be directed at the Muslim community as a whole in North America. Perhaps this is a reasonable fear on their part, given how the right-wing politicians and bloggers are playing it. But fear that public misconceptions might reflect poorly on someone else are not a good reason to give in to those misconceptions.

It's a sensitivity issue. If Christian Extremists blew up a seat of power in Islam and non extreme Christians knew it would be an unpopular move to build a Christian church near the site, and cause strife and dissension they would not build it.

The imam of this mosque has led a mosque very near the WTC site for 27 years. He was down there in the days after 9/11 giving out water to the rescue workers. I would be surprised if he hadn't lost someone either on that day or in the time since due to the respiratory and other health issues that stemmed from that.

He is part of that community. That community (the neighborhood) supports him.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


It is not well-documented. The imam is very moderate and works to bridge the gap between Islam and the West. He also condemns terrorism and works to decrease violence. What I like best about his Cordoba Initiative, is its work to empower and raise up women. A very good thing.


[edit on 15-8-2010 by InvisibleAlbatross]