The hypocritical opposition against the NY mosque

It is interesting watching these threads from posters complaining about the New York mosque being given the green light and the comments from the president in support the rights of those Muslims to freely worship and freely participate in the market. It really shows the true colours of the opposition to this mosque, it really does, and this will surely follow many of these same individuals next time they decide to complain about their freedoms and how fascist this government is.

You know what they say? You can spot fake constitutionalists from a mile away when it comes to issues concerning gays or religion.

But that is not where the buck stops when it comes to noting the hypocrisy from the critics of this mosque. When we look to events that were heavily influenced by Christian fundamentalism we see a totally different attitude and response from the same kinds of people in the opposition today.

Christian extremists had committed and supported more injustices in this country than those of Islam or any other religion over the years. Let us not forget that the vast majority of our presidents were Christians and many admitted that Christianity influenced in one way or another the way they ran the nation. Many Christians justified and supported all kinds of injustices, so I am just astonished at how people are so quick to forget and point to Islam and only Islam as some threat.

It was no secret that many 'Christians' justified and supported slavery in the name of the religion:

Jefferson Davies:

"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America

Rev Furman:

"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., a Baptist pastor from South Carolina.

www.religioustolerance.org...

There were a minority of Christians that had opposed Slavery at that time while unfortunately most either supported it or justified it in some way or another. When large global Christian establishments such as the Church of England supported and justified slavery for years in the past, you would have known how wide spread so called Christians at the time believed these actions were justified:

The Church's missionary arm, the Society for the Propagation of the Faith in Foreign Parts, owned the Codrington plantation in Barbados and slaves had the word "Society" branded on their chests with red-hot irons.

The Synod was told that the society's governing body included archbishops of Canterbury. Bishops of London and archbishops of York were involved in its management.

One archbishop, the Most Rev Thomas Secker, wrote to a fellow bishop in 1760: "I have long wondered and lamented that the Negroes in our plantation decrease and new supplies become necessary continually.

"Surely this proceeds from some defect, both of humanity and even of good policy. But we must take things as they are at present."

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Many Christians in England and even some within these United States stood for the end of slavery in one way or another, but many many more Christians supported and helped promote and profit off the backs of slaves. Their actions at that time were of no difference to the actions of many Islamic extremists at present or even in the past. Many Muslims held slaves in the same manner but let’s not forget that Christians held the same or further guilt for this.

..But hold on a minute SG! Those slaves were not all murdered in the name of Christianity right?

Christian leaders from a wide spectrum of traditions and denominations are expressing their full support for a brand new initiative to educate Europeans about the tragic realities of the Holocaust and what the implications are for today. The campaign “learn from history” is initiated by the European Coalition for Israel in collaboration with a broad group of Christians leaders ranging from the charismatic movement to representatives from the Catholic church as well the Dutch reformed church.“

www.ec4i.org...:broad-christian-support-for-new-pan-european-grassroot-initiative-to-commemorate-h olocaust-day&catid=74:press-releases&Itemid=53

Since the 1960s, it has been increasingly fashionable to condemn Pius XII (Eugenio Pacelli) -- who was Pope from 1939 until 1958 -- for his alleged indifference to the fate of Europe's Jews during the Second World War. Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wiesenthal Center of Los Angeles, for example, recently declared: "... Pope Pius XII sat on the throne of St. Peter in stony silence, as the trains carrying millions of unsuspecting victims criss-crossed Europe en route to the gas chambers... Not once did the Pope lift his voice in unequivocal terms to protest the deportations and murder of the Jews ..."

www.ihr.org...

It should be noted that pope Pius XII did some things right at the time such as to issue 3,000 visas to non-aryan Catholics to leave Italy at that time, but he largely kept silent at that time. Many would argue that Christians and Catholics had little choice but to either support or stay silent, but there were many vocal Christian supporters of the Nazi regime and Christian fundamentalism helped influence and justified the massacre of the Jews.

Let’s go back a lot further, a millennium ago:

Historians have viewed the Crusades as a mixture of benefits and horrors. On one hand, there was a new knowledge of the East and the possibilities of trade to be found there, not to mention the spread of Christianity. On the other hand, Christianity was spread in a violent, militaristic manner, and the result was that new areas of possible trade turned into new areas of conquest and bloodshed. A number of non-Christians lost their lives to Christian armies in this era, and this trend would continue in the inquisitions of the coming centuries.

history-world.org...

It was the influence by the deep established church among the European kingdoms that started these crusades and in their actions many many people lost their lives and to this day the numbers cannot be accounted for. It was at this point that Christianity at its extreme showed its true violent nature, but my my are people so quick to forget?

Let’s look back to more recent times shall we?

How about the Iraq war where President Bush's religious beliefs influenced him to wage war:
www.usatoday.com...

Such high political Christian figures such as Sarah Palin stated that the invasion of Iraq was a mission sent from God:



At least she asked for prays over the soldiers, at least. But considering the war turned out to be complete waste where we lost over 4000 American lives and over 100,000 Iraqi lives, I fail to see how this could be justified? The actions of Iraq and Christian fundamentalism influence over those actions can clearly show us how violent Christianity can be in the same.



And how about us going further than Iraq? How about the support of Christian groups for the Zionists in Israel that have carried out equally violent acts as their Islamic Arab neighbours?



Pat Robertson


Pat Robertson again on Haiti:


But then again many of the violent actions of Christian fundamentalists over the years have been excused for the great good right? I see little different in this excuse as in the Islamic fundamentalist who have killed because of American actions and killings in the Middle East and American presence in the past. That rational is no different to that of those fanatics who killed in the name of 1.5 billion people in the world for their own selfish and horrible beliefs. The bombings of George Tiller and the abortion clinics were no different. At the death of Ted Kennedy there were a lot of ugly comments celebrating his death from Christian groups and also lets not forget Wesboro Baptist church and their violent remarks and calls on homosexuals and other causes not to their liking.

There are a tonne of examples out there about Christian fundamentalism and its violent impact over this nation and around the world, even at present. I sit here watching all the protestors complain about the extremist of Islam, complain about how this mosque will only promote violence and even had a hot debate with my elderly father about their rights and how fundamentalist has appeared in Christianity and Judaism equally. People are either clueless or completely hypocritical to insist this mosque should be prevented from being placed because the actions of this individuals some how represented every Muslim and mosque in the world. After all the violence caused in the name of Christianity over the years we are so quick to either justify, forgive or forget, but when the actions of another extremist religion that hits close to home, all of a sudden its a different ball game.

The people for the most part who are protesting this mosque kept shut or stood right by the violent actions of Christianity over the years. People are so quick to forget their actions and their support. It is pathetic and a propaganda attempt by the religious rightwing to attack and label entire groups of people.

Islam a religion of violence? Christians and the rightwing should be the last to talk.

I have only been registered on here for half a day and already I have seen a large amount of post concerning this Mosque. Why do people repeat posts and why do people keep posting multiple threads on the topic of this building?

Its a shame to waste so many views spread out over a few different but really the same posts.

This Mosque is really becoming a thorn in the side of people. Maybe it needs to be looked at again by the people who have the power to make these types of calls. I think the people should be the ones to vote and then do. end it soon!!

Originally posted by L1U2C3I4F5E6R
This Mosque is really becoming a thorn in the side of people. Maybe it needs to be looked at again by the people who have the power to make these types of calls.

Nobody deserves the power of dictating who is allowed to buy property where, or where you choose to establish a place of worship.

My thread is based on the christian hypocrites in the opposition, not necessarily just about whether the mosque should be allowed or not.

OP I am in agreement with your views. I am repulsed by others attempts to block the Freedoms for others that they would demand for themselves. I am also disgusted by societies politically correct status quo. Who gets offended because someone builds a Mosque because where it is put, or because they believe it is a slap in the face to the victims of 9/11? The people that believe another person can offend you by building a building and opening it on a certain day are slaves. They are not free. It is a building, is all it is. It stands for whatever anyone wants it to. The same people would believe it was a slap in the face, as the people that believed somehow striking the world trade center would be a symbolic gesture of attacking the economic heart of America.

The Evangelicals were the ministers to the slave owners of the south. They also ministered to the plantation owners slaves. Today, ten o'clock Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in the south, blacks meeting on one side of town whites on the other. For some reason I never liked Evangelicals, then I found out why. I say if it bugs the hypocrites so much, let them build the thing.

reply to post by ExPostFacto


Yep. And probably some of the same people who don't believe a one billion dollar US embassy in the heart of Baghdad isn't a slap to anyone's face.

The hypocritical positions taken by Christians on this topic and many others isn't exactly hypocritical.

Its wrong, yes, but is not exactly hypocritical.

When Christian-fascists speak about freedom and justice it is synonymous with having the freedom to do only what they think is morally just and their freedom to persecute people that do not meet their moral standards.

It goes back to the days of the pilgrims. They left Europe to find 'religious freedom' only to come over to North America and persecute others who did not convert to their ideas of salvation (Native Americans).

Do I think that the mosque should be built? No. They are being insensitive jerks (not exactly the term I use, but its not PG). But I don't think being a jerk and saying that they can't build the mosque is justified either.

Both sides are jerks (the exact term I use rhymes with 'trucking glass bowls') . One side needs to take the high road and back down.

Show me a Christian Church near Mecca then we can talk about hyprocrisy.

The sooner this abomination is built, the sooner I can root for its demise.

As soon as it is built, I want to apply to build a BBQ joint right next door, or maybe a dog sitting service. What are the chances something like this gets OK'd???

Originally posted by Carseller4
Show me a Christian Church near Mecca then we can talk about hyprocrisy.

How is that hypocritical? Its rather simple to understand really. We are a Republic, we promote freedom and the rights of all americans, we uphold the constitution, Saudi Arabia does not. Simple.

Why should we follow the actions of Saudi Arabia and other non-democratic countries? Are we not different from them?? This argument baffles me coming from conservatives. It is contradictory in itself.

The sooner this abomination is built, the sooner I can root for its demise.

Right. You intend to strip them of this constitutional freedom? Why should non-christians be treated like secondary citizens?

As soon as it is built, I want to apply to build a BBQ joint right next door, or maybe a dog sitting service.

By all means go ahead. There will be little protest against your right to do so and nobody will stop you. If anybody says you cannot I will stand right there with you. Your rights are not below anybody else's and it should never be.

[edit on 14-8-2010 by Southern Guardian]

Originally posted by Carseller4
Show me a Christian Church near Mecca then we can talk about hyprocrisy.

The sooner this abomination is built, the sooner I can root for its demise.

As soon as it is built, I want to apply to build a BBQ joint right next door, or maybe a dog sitting service. What are the chances something like this gets OK'd???

There is no analogy between a Christian church in mecca and this project.

Would rooting for its demise be close to a terrorist theat

Chances are VERY good those types of businesses would be approved. Why would you think they would not be?

In fact there's already a BBQ place a few doors down...27 Park Place, New York, NY‎ - (646) 861-1610‎, so you might have some competition.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by L1U2C3I4F5E6R
This Mosque is really becoming a thorn in the side of people. Maybe it needs to be looked at again by the people who have the power to make these types of calls.

Nobody deserves the power of dictating who is allowed to buy property where, or where you choose to establish a place of worship.

That's called "Fascism." The problem is, most people want Fascism, so long as it's their flavor of Fascism.

Before the rise of every fascist regime, both major political parties have become neo-Socialist. And the lesser of the two parties wins out.

[edit on 14-8-2010 by theWCH]

Originally posted by DINSTAAR
Both sides are jerks (the exact term I use rhymes with 'trucking glass bowls') . One side needs to take the high road and back down.

I disagree. Depending which side needs to take the high road, people should speak up and defend the rights of these american citizens to establish a place of worship. We should not stay silent and give chance to a mob of people to dictate whenever rights are being carried out. The mosque is going ahead and yet people are still trying to interfere in doing this. It should not be ignored, people should not 'backdown'.

In anycase the core point of my thread is this argument that islam is a violent religion that has no business building up this mosque in there area when there are number of christian churches where christianity could be held equally accountable, it is hypocritical. People should not stay silent when a mob of people wish to pressure their beliefs over somebodies right.

[edit on 14-8-2010 by Southern Guardian]

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Do you suppose that people opposed to the "Ground Zero Mosque" would be equally opposed to the "Auschwitz Cross?"

Or is it only wrong when non-Christians do it?

I am torn on this issue.

Part of me, the constitutionalists, says "good for them" let them build the largest mosque to their false god they can afford. No one tells me I have to like the pedophilia founder or any of the bastards of their religion. Just let them do what they want with their property.

The other part of me, says "build a larger FBI office park across the street" with many security cameras mounted. Throw in a regional INS office at the same time.

All the muslims can come and go as they please.

reply to post by theWCH


You nailed it with your last line.

"All Americans are fat."
"All muslims are terrorists."

Which of the above will be protested here I wonder ?
Should be neither as they are both sweeping generalizations with no basis in reality.

Originally posted by hinky
The other part of me, says "build a larger FBI office park across the street" with many security cameras mounted. Throw in a regional INS office at the same time.

The imam for the proposed mosque helps train FBI agents to recognize extremism in Muslims, so I think they may have that covered

The OP has produced such a politically intolerant, anti-Christian, anti Western, and anti American thread!!! Guess those who want destroy America (at least as we, know it!) have something to read!

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

It really shows the true colours of the opposition to this mosque, it really does, and this will surely follow many of these same individuals next time they decide to complain about their freedoms and how fascist this government is.

Translation: You (along with others “brainwashed” by the Political Correctness, defining, mass media) are going to discriminate against anyone who opposes the Mosque, next time they open they’re mouth.

You can spot fake constitutionalists from a mile away when it comes to issues concerning gays or religion.

Translation: Anyone you disagree with over Gays or Religion, has no right to turn to the Constitution because even if they’re right, they’re wrong. And therefore “fake”.

Let us not forget that the vast majority of our presidents were Christians and many admitted that Christianity influenced in one way or another the way they ran the nation.

Name me one U.S president who wasn’t either Christian or (maybe) Jewish? America became the wealthiest, most technologically progressive (and sometimes even in democratic politics), anywhere in the world under Christian hands. Also it has remained so under their hands. The day we get a president not the product of the Christian, cultral, influence, is probably the same day America joins the other non-believers in being a 2nd rate-3rd world nation.

The people for the most part who are protesting this mosque kept shut or stood right by the violent actions of Christianity over the years.

Southern “Guardian” Your knowledge of all the views, of all the people, who oppose the mosque must be all encompassing. I mean how else can you label an entire movement hypocritical. Maybe these Muslims are dedicating this Mosque to the wrong God, maybe it should be you?

Or maybe it should be the God that most Americans worship? –the god of America (so to speak)? I don’t worship the Christian God, but I’d rather he be worshiped than the primary religion of the suicide bomber, oppression of women and gays?
Christianity is guilty of this too, but most of it happened before the bible legally went into English (some 300 plus years ago) and that which has continued after has been without the extreme abuses prescribed by Islam.

I'm not a Christian, and I don’t even think Muslims did 9/11 (although I saw them celebrate on TV, and heard as much on the net). However I hope this Mosque doesn’t get built because many Muslims believe they did do 9/11, and I think rejecting this Mosque would show that in a democracy, the majority of New Yorkers are listened too, and that they reject any good for Islam, that can directly come out of 9/11.

But then I view Islam as a destructive, cultural influence, one that is not (native to the majority of Americans). No Islamic country is a democracy (unless it’s being bombed by us, and that barely counts, as our bombs haven’t succeeded in making the democracy work!!). And all Islamic countries are poor (except from those “blessed” with oil).
However before its brutal conquest, much of the Arab world was many decades ahead of medieval Europe. Therefore the the Arabs aren’t poor because of race, but because of culture, and their culture is Islam.

Islam’s well & good whenever it’s in its most extreme, secular form. However I don’t want it spreading to anywhere, as the two types of Islam are interchangeable.

[edit on 090705 by Liberal1984]

Originally posted by hinky
I am torn on this issue.

Part of me, the constitutionalists, says "good for them" let them build the largest mosque to their false god they can afford.

I know many people who support their right to build that mosque but do not necessarily agree with islam in itself, but then again I have athiest and christian friends. You do not have to support the actions of islam or any other religion while supporting their right to freely worship to freely establish a place of worship, to freely participate in the market and buy property.

The other part of me, says "build a larger FBI office park across the street" with many security cameras mounted. Throw in a regional INS office at the same time.

Well thats part of the point in my thread. Christianity has been either equally or worse when it came to killings or injustices over the years. As far as I can see it, if you fear islam so much you certainly must have turned a blind eye to christianity and the actions of individuals in the name of that religion.

reply to post by Carseller4


There are talks to build the first Christian church in Saudi Arabia. You can hardly take this one country as an example of Christians being persecuted in Muslim countries. Most Muslim countries do indeed have churches, even Iran.

reply to post by hinky


What would be the purpose of the INS center exactly?