Why Roswell will never be solved: Redfern

Originally posted by Kandinsky
50 odd years and the only guys that know aren't talking.

Col. Jesse Marcel Jr. still talks about it, he wrote a new book about it.


Roswell: It Really Happened.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f566d7af5505.jpg[/atsimg]

Marcel’s book tells of his involvement in what really happened in July of 1947 when he examined the debris of a crashed interstellar ship. As one of the last survivors, and the only individual that has been acknowledged by our government to have examined and analyzed this debris, Marcel feels it’s necessary that his knowledge of the event never be lost.

In the introduction, Marcel previews Roswell It Really Happened in one paragraph, as follows: "As time goes on, there are fewer and fewer of us first-hand witnesses still alive. The Roswell event happened over 58 years ago, which is hard for me to believe, but the calendar does not lie. With this account, I have written about the Roswell incident from a very personal viewpoint. This is written as seen through my eyes and what influence this has had on the way I have lived my life, looking at it through a Roswell prism. I have never altered my story. The symbols, debris and so forth have never changed, but the government’s cover-up seems to change with the seasons. I am merely standing in for my father when it comes to my depictions and memories of Roswell.

www.ufocongressstore.com...



[edit on 15/4/10 by spacevisitor]

HI OP,

Frankly, I'm sick of Roswell July 8, 1947 traces of UFO stuff.

Seen it all, read it all. Time to bury it. It started it all..now we're so far beyond it that I suggest let Roswell die.

All due respect to Jesse Marcel, Glenn Dennis and especially toward and William "Mac" Brazel , who went through hell with the then AFOSI.

Don't you'll think it's time to move on..

Decoy

reply to post by Kandinsky


Yeah I guess Fred Crisman was literally a "****-up" even though he was spreading UFO lies -- to Kenneth Arnold --

oh wait that was BEFORE Roswell.

What was I thinking?

But then Fred Crisman did work for the CIA so maybe....

Nah couldn't be he was working for some higher up who wanted to spread UFO disinformation even before Roswell happened.

Well I guess Kenn Thomas did write a book on it which he is updating right now so maybe there is something to this....

www.ufosnw.com...

theunexplainedmysteries.com...

Dahl reported these events to Fred Crisman, a man he believed to have some connections in the intelligence community. Crisman subsequently went to Maury Island to investigate the incident. He found a great deal of both materials on the shore and recovered some for himself. Soon thereafter, Crisman shared his experience with Ray Palmer, a magazine publisher, who then hired Kenneth Arnold (the original pilot) to investigate further. Three days later, Arnold had more sightings, culminating with a woman recovering some unusual material in the same vicinity, who then turned the material over to FBI agent Guy Banister. Capt. Lee Davidson and Lt. Frank Brown, Air Force investigators under the command of Gen. Nathan Twining, soon joined Arnold in retrieving debris on Maury Island. Ultimately, Crisman was compelled to turn over his samples to the two Air Force investigators. Classified documents, recently discovered under the freedom of information act, also indicate that Crisman turned additional samples he had held back over to CIA agent Clay Shaw.

I believe that if anything more substantial than balloons and radar targets had crashed on Foster Ranch, there should be something left at the crash site today.

Gazrok writes that, "If a top secret (and unannounced) stealth jet crashed on a farm today, you can bet they'd gather up ever nut and bolt..."

We can test that theory. This sort of event that has, in fact, occurred numerous of times. Unacknowledged "black" projects vehicles from Area 51 and Tonopah Test Range, for example, have crashed on public land in close proximity to populated areas.

There is nothing more secret than unacknowledged special access programs (SAPs). Only personnel with a need-to-know are briefed in. Many advanced technology aircraft projects have been developed as unacknowledged SAPs and tested at remote locations such as Area 51. In UFOlogy, conventional wisdom dictates that the crash of an extraterrestrial craft would be treated similarly to an unacknowledged SAP. additionally, there is no more unambiguous directive than, "Clean up every trace." That order has been given for many SAP crash-retrievals, and presumably would also apply to a UFO crash.

Why is this important? Simply put, we can study historical government crash retrievals of stealth aircraft and spy planes and compare them to UFO crash retrieval stories. Let's start with the basics.

I have noticed that many UFO crash retrieval stories have a lot of elements in common:

1. The vehicle/object crashed on public or private land in relatively close proximity to a population center (city, town or rural community).

2. Civilian witnesses either saw the object crash or came across wreckage at the impact site.

3. Government/military personnel secured the crash site and kept unauthorized personnel away for as long as necessary to retrieve the debris.

4. Civilian witnesses were warned not to speak of what they saw. Unauthorized photos/film were confiscated.

5. Because of the Top Secret nature of the debris, recovery crews were ordered to give clean-up top priority.

Crash events involving SAP vehicles from Area 51 and other classified facilities share these characteristics in every detail. Let's look at a few of the best examples.

Project OXCART involved developmental testing of the Lockheed A-12 reconnaissance aircraft. Capable of Mach 3 cruise at 90,000 feet, it was a cutting edge design, funded by the Central Intelligence Agency and tested at Area 51. The first flight took place in 1962, but the A-12 was not declassified until 1981. Two Air Force variants, the YF-12A interceptor and SR-71 recon plane were publicly surfaced in 1964, in part to serve as a cover for sightings of the A-12 as it would inevitably be seen during testing or deployment.

The first A-12 crash occurred near Wendover, Utah, in May 1963 (a year prior to public unveiling of the YF-12A). It was a true "black" project, and the CIA initiated a cover story that an Air Force F-105 fighter had crashed. The government went to great lengths to control access to the crash site. According to the now declassified Accident Investigation Report, clean-up was top priority. There report included a memorandum claiming that "all traces of [the aircraft] had been removed from the crash scene." I have even met people who took part in the cleanup operation and swear that they removed every piece and checked with metal detectors to make sure before they departed the area.

Today, however, a visit to the crash site reveals that thousands of pieces of debris remain. The impact crater still resembles the imprint of the airplane's aft fuselage and engine nacelles with two gouges from the twin tail fins (it struck the ground inverted) It is surrounded by titanium and composite pieces from the airplane’s wings and chines. Other debris includes turbine blades and other engine components (identifiable with an Illustrated Parts Book for the J75 engines used in the early A-12), pieces of titanium structure and skin, and material from the cockpit (identifiable through photos and the A-12 pilot's handbook. many pieces have A-12 part numbers and Lockheed “Skunk Works” inspection stamps (identifiable through museum examples and declassified documents). There are also other recognizable components specific to the A-12.

During the 1960s Lockheed also developed a Top Secret unmanned reconnaissance aircraft called the D-21. Designed to fly at mach 3 speeds and altitudes as high as 90,000 feet, it was a stealthy, ramjet-powered craft. Originally lauched from an A-12 derivative, a fatal accident led to a modified version called the D-21B that was launched from a B-52. Because the drone needed to be traveling at Mach 3 speeds in order to ignite the ramjet, a rocket booster (called the DZ-1) was attached to the D-21B.

On 28 September 1967, two D-21B drones with DZ-1 boosters were carried aloft from Area 51 beneath the wings of a B-52 on what was supposed to be a captive-carry flight. Due to a technical malfunction, however, one of the drones inadvertently separated from the launch pylon. The rocket fired and carried the drone for some distance before it crashed in a rural area of central Nevada.

According to interviews with participants and witnesses, personnel from Area 51 secured the crash site as quickly as possible and retrieved film from a civilian witness who took some pictures before the recovery crew arrived at the scene. The D-21B project officer told me that the clean-up crew walked shoulder-to-shoulder through the debris field, picking up every piece. "The site was clean as a hound's tooth when they finished," he said. A local rancher whom was present said, "The government people were very concerned about every piece of wreckage." Another rancher said the recovery crew "spent days policing the area, picking up every piece. There is nothing left to indicate it ever happened."

Again, a visit to the crash site shows this to be an exaggeration. Debris remaining at the site in 2005 included small pieces of titanium, steel, aluminum and plastic, electronic components, and pieces with D-21 part numbers and Lockheed Skunk Works inspection stamps. The largest remaining piece was the entire nose cone from the rocket booster (identifiable through declassified photos and documents).

The F-117A, popularly known as the "Stealth Fighter," was the first combat aircraft designed to be virtually invisible to hostile air defenses. Designers used sophisticated techniques involving radar-absorbent materials, special avionics, and the aircraft’s shape to make it “low observable” or “stealthy” to radar and infrared sensors. Developed as a clandestine “black” program in the late 1970s, tested at Area 51 in the early 1980s, and deployed to operational units at nearby Tonopah Test Range (TTR), the existence of the F-117A was a closely guarded secret for nearly a decade.

On 11 July 1986, Maj. Ross Mulhare crashed his F-117A in the mountains 15 miles northeast of Bakersfield, California. The crash site was declared a National Defense Area to prevent entry by unauthorized personnel. Civilian overflights were restricted within a 5-mile radius. Armed guards manned roadblocks at perimeter checkpoints. Local and federal officials involved in firefighting, crash investigation, and other activities surrounding the incident were ordered by the Air Force not to discuss what they had seen or heard. The clean-up operation took several weeks.

As soon as the area was reopened to the public, news media and hikers began searching for debris. They found pieces of aluminum, titanium, and composite materials, as well as engine components and cockpit items. Pictures of some of these items were published and shown on television news programs.

If pieces of documented "black" project crashes can be found, then it should be no problem to find debris from a "flying saucer," whatever its origin.

Originally posted by drew hempel
He detailed a number of issues surrounding the Roswell story which suggest that the downed craft was of terrestrial, but non-American, origin. For instance, Farrell noted that witnesses, who saw the Roswell debris, observed numbers on the wreckage. This, he surmised, suggests an Earthly origin since it is highly unlikely that ETs would be using our symbols for there numeric system.

It has been alleged that the symbols depicted within the crashed saucer were ancient greek and aliens were pleadians from the future warning us against a pending future disaster.

Don't ask me for sources because it will take me hours to find what I am looking for, but if your interested in this hypothesis I am sure you can find something.

On the subject of the beings allegedly recovered from the crash, he asserted that, based on the vast majority of the accounts, there is "nothing that compels to the fact that these were extraterrestrial beings. We simply have very odd looking humans." Apparently, this idea was shared by the Army personnel who arrived at the scene, since Farrell said that one witness claims that the recovery team attempted to speak Japanese and German to the crash victims.

It has been alleged that aliens can speak many earthly languages.

Taking these aspects of the event into account, Farrell advanced his alternative theory that the downed craft at Roswell was really a version of the erstwhile Nazi project known as The Bell. According to his research, work on the Bell can be traced from Germany to Argentina following World War II. To that end, he revealed that immediately following the Roswell crash, the US Army re-opened the security classification files of the former Nazis that were brought to America via Project Paperclip. Additionally, he cited the testimony of Col. Philip Corso, who Farrell contends, "hints, repeatedly throughout his book, that there is some apparent Nazi 'look' to the technology that they had recovered." Ultimately, Farrell theorized that the displaced Nazis were "sending a message to their former enemy that 'we have a technology that you cannot touch.'"

The ET phenomena can be traced back to ancient egypt so it would not suprise me if the nazis had reverse-engineered ufos or gotten the technology from someone else. When america and the alies won ww2, a lot of german scientists went to the usa and brought whatever knowledge they had with them.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by EarthCitizen07]

reply to post by Shadowhawk


Do you have any photos or links for these crash sites? I'm not doubting you, it's concievable that small debris could remain, and I would like to look into it further. Yet I'm interested to see how an entire nose cone could be accidentaly left behind, yet still be found at the crash site many years later. Was it a considerable distance from the actual crash site, or had people just walked straight past it. Perhaps, buried underground?

Originally posted by Gazrok

Ha! I SAW a big black triangle craft UP CLOSE -- yes this technology is still classified!

Ok, so your contention is that we've had these black triangles (or the tech that enables them) for over 50 years (and of our own, terrestrial design), but STILL haven't made them a major part of our defense, or expanded the tech to the private sector?

Now who's making a leap of faith....

My point is that there is NO technology of our own make, from 1947, that would STILL be classified...it'd be way past obsolete...so whatever was recovered, is still worthy of classification and coverup, and not something we came up with....

[edit on 14-4-2010 by Gazrok]

I don't wish to derail the thread but some people claim the american government has its own flying saucer fleet stationed at area 51 and other top secret bases throughout the world.

Of course this techonology would be classified at the highest levels, way above nuclear stuff. Robert Lazar who worked at S4 at the nevada test site said his MAJIC clearance was 44 levels above Q-clearance used to denote nuclear tech.

reply to post by drew hempel


No i said he was head of Wehrmacht military intelligence, not just part of it. Believe it or not when you read umpteen books on the subject there are times when the info become a bit of a blur.

Look I'm sorry but i'm not really into debating historical facts garnered from books written by military historians against a bunch of made up speculation from sites with not that great a grasp on reality.

Unlike these sites, I don't have an agenda. I personally, find what the Yanks and the my own Government did, morally reprehensible. Then again so was the CIA infiltrating the Italian Red Army and selecting the targets for assassination based on, people they wanted removed who "Knew too much", about the CIA's links to ultra right groups throughout the world funded, clandestinely, by the Vatican bank.

However, i do think it's time people took the biased spectacles off when it comes to talking about the Nazis. They weren't that far ahead of the Allies in many fields of research. The Allies made a conscious decision that was a game of brinkmanship. They stuck many programmes on the back burner in order to concentrate on producing standard weaponry by the 1000 , in order to swamp the Axis powers with sheer numbers. So of course, having won, they went straight for the German jet aircraft specialists to catch up on the 3-4 years research they'd dropped behind.

The biggest single factor, if there is one, in the Allies winning the war was the British facility at Bletchely Park. They invented Pulse Code Modulation there and the worlds first operational modern computer, with which they cracked the German enigma codes. What's more the Germans hadn't a clue we'd done it. But ,both the Allies and the Germans were hamstrung by the same technological barrier. It was all based on valves and capacitors. They were , by their sheer bulk a huge and unsurmountable , at the time, obstacle to progress , in the real world.

At the time of Roswell this was still very much the case. You could have all the wonderful ideas and theories in the universe, but to bring them to any sort of practical solution meant stupidly large apparatus that was, useless, in any real practical terms.

The fact is Britain was a decade ahead of every other country in the world, when it came to the basic building blocks of what our modern world is now. That is, addressing the practicalities of miniaturisation. As I've pointed out in another thread, Alec Reeves, was the man. The man who, virtually (sic) invented the modern world as we know it. Show me one of these sites where his name is even mentioned, let alone him given the credit he is due?

I suspect that, many of these sites and writers, can;t handle the idea of *aliens* so they have chosen to imbue these Nazi scientists, with the same fabled abilities the believers ascribe to the Aliens. Of course, it's far easier to convince people it was, the Nazis, than it is to convince people it's the Aliens. However, these people indulge in the very same groundless speculation, to prove their point, as the Alien believers.

The bottom line is simple. Without transistors none of these concepts were ever going to be practical, transportable solutions. That's why. post world war 2 there was a brief period where little really changed. Because the likes of Reeves had the foresight to see that, miniaturisation was an absolute must, or technology would simply stagnate.

As I have said elsewhere. Whilst, i don't believe Corso in his detail. What i do think might have happened was this. Something crashed at Roswell that wasn't ours. The biggest effect it had on our technology was this. The American military knew for certain that minatturisation was , indeed possible and practical from the wreckage they collected. It didn't matter a flying fig whether they knew how to back engineer the Roswell craft. They knew minaturisation wasn't just science fiction. So, when someone came to the American government saying they wanted money for research into transistors. They didn't have to say, oh yes we found some similar at Roswell, they just said yes to the funding. They told all the great research establishments, that miniaturisation was key to progress to put their efforts into it without saying a word about Roswell.

You know, i have a sneaking suspicion that. If Roswell wasn't one of ours that the true reason for the cover up is far more mundane than might be first thought. I reckon, in their attempts to work out the craft's various systems they totally we wrecked it beyond being able to ever assemble it back into any shape or form, that might make it look believable. As such i think it could easily be they are just too embarrassed to admit, !"We broke it, we broke it so bad there's nothing really left".

So whilst i believe the Nazis were up to all sorts of stuff, they suffered from the same problem as everyone in this world did. They couldn't produce anything, on a practical level, that could be built and used in any great numbers. So yes, they managed to *levitate" a sphere above their facility. Only problem is, they needed a huge power supply and a massive fixed facility to do it. In other words, outside of the wow factor, it was of no use whatsoever and by 1947 and Roswell, that was still the case. In exactly the same way Alec reeves invented Pulse Code Modulation, but save, for the secure line between Roosevelt and Churchill, nothing more was really managed, practically, until the invention of the transistor, over decade in the future.

Just maybe, if the people who pen these sites actually sat and down and really thought about it, rather than just jumping on the , me too, bandwagon, they might see the huge hole in their logic.

When i see Ferrell state World War 1, wasn't about conquest. I know the bloke obviously doesn't even have the basic grounding in political history a 13 year old kid over here does. That the guy hasn't even heard of the Kaiser's, "Place in the sun", doctrine speaks volumes.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by FireMoon]

reply to post by Gazrok


Right so the CIA admitted to having relied on a top Nazi war criminal in order to launch their Cold War -- in....

2000!!

Not 1948, not the 1980s, not...

And that's just Gehlen -- sure much of the CIA Nazi material has been declassified -- or has it?

There's MORE classified material than there's material in the library of congress....

So as long as the extraterrestrial myth is favorable to cover up advanced technology then there's a good reason to keep whatever secret military technology was used at Roswell secret.

It's not like the CIA wants to come out and admit they torture people and are filled with former Nazis who by chance work on secret propulsion technology.

It's all together -- so to retroactively show the technology of Roswell would mean pulling apart the whole extraterrestrial mythos which still works as a cover story.

Reagan used it -- it's called the Stargate Conspiracy!

Prince and Picknett have an excellent book on it. I already linked Philip Coppen's research on the stargate conspiracy....

www.picknettprince.com...

Are the ancient gods - or perhaps superior life-forms from space - really returning? Have they already made contact through chosen mediums, channellers and leaders of cults? Or is that what certain cynical manipulators want us to believe? In a bizarre and murky world where reality and belief are compelled to collide by those coldly orchestrating the plan, miracles apparently occur and the promised revelation of secrets is endless.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by drew hempel]

[edit on 14-4-2010 by drew hempel]

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by Kandinsky

 

Right and you can say that about anything -- for all we know we all surrounded by extraterrestrial aliens right now! I mean that's what Paul Bennewitz thought -- read Project Beta by Greg Bishop -- of course the military intelligence led him to this conclusion, along with lying to all the UFO conference attenders. And so the great alien myth was firmly propagated by military intelligence.

Still you never know do you? haha.

Yeah we are surrounded by aliens but I wouldn't worry much about them because we have ultra-terrestrial "aliens" living under your feet. Maybe 10 miles straight down if you dig with an oil rig. You know "hell on earth" theory included within the *hollow earth theory*.

Actually its nothing to laugh about because sooner or later they will take over earth unless stopped. No they are not martians! They are not the greys either, as the greys are done probing humans and are now mining for natural magnets within the earth's crust. I am talking about the reptillians from alpha draconia who have resided here for millenia, if not eons.

Allegedly they are operating the dulce base with the cia/nsa(ex-german nazis) and the greys for the covert take-over. Phil Schneider, John Lear, Robert Lazar, Thomas Castello, Jason Bishop, Branton and others have corraborated that this base exists and is up to no good. Seven levels deep!

Earth belongs to satan/lucifer/devil, who are in cahoots with the illuminatti, who run the banks, who bribe politicians, who sink countries. It is a huge conspiracy. Trust no one and pray to god for salvation, for if the rapture is true and 12-21-2012 is the date, we will need much help!

Can you handle the truth?