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Why Roswell will never be solved: Redfern

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posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 07:16 PM
reply to post by Curious and Concerned

For several case studies of "black" aircraft crash retrievals, I recommend reading "After The Fire: How the Government Responds to Top Secret Crashes" (Peter W. Merlin, 2006). It was presented at the 4th Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference in Las Vegas, Nevada (10-12 November 2006), and is published in the proceedings. I believe this is available from

The A-12 crash story can also be found here:

I suspect the rocket nose cone was overlooked because it was out of sight of the main debris field. Other small parts were scattered nearby. A photo the nose cone can be seen here:

The F-117A story can be found in a number of places including these two sites:

These are just a few examples of actual, documented government crash retrieval operations. There are many others but the ultimate lesson is always the same. Unless the site has been paved over, there should be something left.

posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 07:29 PM

Originally posted by FireMoon
reply to post by drew hempel

No i said he was head of Wehrmacht military intelligence, not just part of it. Believe it or not when you read umpteen books on the subject there are times when the info become a bit of a blur.

Wilhelm Bodewin Gustav Keitel (22 September 1882–16 October 1946) was a German field marshal (Generalfeldmarschall). As head of the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (High Command of the Armed Forces) and de facto war minister, he was one of Germany's most senior military leaders during World War II. At the Allied court at Nuremberg he was tried, sentenced to death and hanged as a major war criminal.

posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 07:34 PM
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

Seriously you'll have to read Project Beta by Greg Bishop hP5dRiSU&hl=en&ei=m17GS_z0IouY8ATVreG3Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

The whole underground alien base dealy is now well-documented to have been planted into the UFO lecture circuit seen by military intelligence disinformation agents....

They drove Paul Bennewitz insane after he discovered secret military technology.

posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 10:07 PM
reply to post by drew hempel

This is all really good stuff from both sides.

Let’s take a step back shall we.

From Foo Fighters to massive Black Triangles we know that reliable people see them so at least at some level they exist. FACT.

Speculation ET or Military Craft

If Military Craft, we surmise that we would know about the ones back in the 1940’s.

My answer to this is, not if that tech was as advanced as we suspect, simply because if it were the world would be very different today. No oil free power etc, therefore in order to maintain the balance it can not be released, not yet anyway.

So if that is the case we are in fact living in one of two very real realities.

One in which the US sent men to the moon in 1969 in rockets that could barely make it.

The other were humans form earth landed on mars years before that.

To back this up we know that the US military take things out of the bag like the stealth fighter in 1991 only when they need to as we now know it was flying in 1980 or so.

If it is ET then the truth is likely to be even worse.

Personally I suspect both and as always I pose the question why the secret. However I don’t think we will like it when we find out.

posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 10:35 PM
reply to post by MAC269

Right well these two different worlds -- actually it's more like Avatar -- well in reverse.

I mean I focus on the Bushmen culture -- the Bushmen were the original humans for 90% of human history -- from 100,000 BCE to 10,000 BCE.

90% of the Bushmen males train to be trance dance healers. When the males hit puberty they go for a month with the elder males -- where the whole time they are fasting and the elders transmit energy into them.

The bellies heat up after the fasting and energy transmission -- this is called N/UM. This N/UM or boiling energy shoots up the back and then....

!KIA is achieved which is a trance state so that the healer can transmit light energy and see spirit lights.

During !KIA when it is real deep the male Bushmen healer can then fly out of his body -- and fly into outerspace!!

Now this Bushmen culture was the dominant human culture. It was then carried on throughout the world through the Dravidians as alchemy. Alchemy originated out of Ethiopia which had a Bushmen culture originally -- and through Egypt and Asia it went into India and China and became yoga and qigong respectively.

So this is a totally different psychophysiology for humans now passed on in secret societies. And these humans could ALREADY travel into outerspace and could ALREADY communicate with "aliens" -- i.e. spirits.

This healing energy works through the REPTILIAN BRAIN -- the cerebellum and the connected pineal gland.

So the extraterrestial mythos is actually a PROJECTION of our alternative world -- now destroyed by civilization.

There's about 5,000 traditional Bushmen left but very few master healers. There's very few master healers in yoga and qigong as well. There's a few other indigenous healers around the world.

But physiologically all humans have this innate healing ability through energy ionization internally -- and this ability is just waiting to come out. Only it doesn't!

In psychology that's called "return of the repressed" -- but the repressed is returned through projections -- symbolic projections -- which are sick and twisted symbols.

Western technology is actually all a projection of this lost human ability because the lost human ability enables humans to resonate with the source of reality -- the source which creates light that bends spacetime.

Science can provide metaphors and models as substitutes and that's why cutting edge secret technology is actually a religion -- it's worshiped with the idea that technology will "save" humanity.

So everyone looks to the stars and believes in something coming down to save us -- but in fact that something is already within us waiting to be revealed.

Yeah there's "two" worlds -- one where we can travel to Mars already -- but it's not through the future, rather the past!

That which "travels" is pure consciousness itself beyond spacetime -- it's what humans really are -- it's what makes everything interconnected.

Stan Gooch has this position about extraterrestrials -- that they are literally a psychological projection of our reptilian brains.

The narrative fantasy. Knowing the problem is half the solution. I doubt that Prometheus would be able to catch its tail on this one — as the Dragon turns into the Disc. For example I was reading William Calvin’s amazing Neil’s Brain book a couple weeks ago. Calvin was detailing the specific part of the brain (I think part of the left temporal lobe) used for remembering names. For some reason I found myself trying to remember the name of Prometheus books! I knew it was some Greek god-type name and I knew it started with a “P” — Pericles? no. Pantheon? no.

Oh yeah the reason I tried to remember Prometheus was because Calvin pointed out that for a short-term memory to become a long-term memory it most trigger a certain intensity of experience. So for things not important to us our brains consciously ignore the short-term memory, thereby storing it deeper into the subconscious then a typical long-term conscious memory. Or so I posed as I used Prometheus as a test case. I justified my inability to remember that publisher’s name with my conscious decision not to remember it since I almost always dismiss a book after seeing it’s published by Prometheus. But still I wanted to remember the name so I tried focusing my brain on that lower left temporal lobe area (or maybe it was the right parietal upper area?). Anyway the point is I was using my left-brain to carry out this operation when anyone knows, from experience, that the best way to remember something is to consciously let it go, thereby letting the subconscious right-brain retrieve the information. Then usually the next morning after a good nights sleep the answer will pop into the left brain out of nowhere. And so it happened the next morning: Promethus books.

Narrative fantasy. My real point in the above rant is that left-brain dominance IS the alien abduction — prose, polemic, deduction, etc. Edgar Allen Poe figured this out and called pure logical inference: “beyond genius.” So the modern human struggles with left-brain dominance not meeting the emotional balance that the right-brain provides and therefore the left-brain is subconsciously controlled by the cerebellum (the reptilian) brain, bringing with it subconscious fears: The alien abduction. Stan Gooch’s book, recently reissued, on alien abductions and other paranormal phenomenon is spot-on.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by drew hempel]

posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 10:45 PM

Originally posted by drew hempel

Originally posted by FireMoon
reply to post by drew hempel

No i said he was head of Wehrmacht military intelligence, not just part of it. Believe it or not when you read umpteen books on the subject there are times when the info become a bit of a blur.

Wilhelm Bodewin Gustav Keitel (22 September 1882–16 October 1946) was a German field marshal (Generalfeldmarschall). As head of the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (High Command of the Armed Forces) and de facto war minister, he was one of Germany's most senior military leaders during World War II. At the Allied court at Nuremberg he was tried, sentenced to death and hanged as a major war criminal.

For crying out loud Drew, He was the head of Wehrmacht Military Intelligence not head of the chuffin Wehrmacht.. I was doing some reading on "Operation Mincemeat", over which there is still huge speculation as to who the body actually was and how much of the book, and film are true. I came across a recent piece of info that stated that. The guy im talking about, who became the guy the CIA was knocked together by, was 100% sure that he'd rumbled *Operation Mincemeat*, through his spy network in Spain.

I believe, from memory, the suggestion was a doctor had told him that the body washed up had died of pneumonia not drowning. He didn't say a word about this, which in effect made him a traitor as Jodl announced that the "Allies were obviously going to invade Sardinia, Crete and Greece, not Sicily" and moved rake loads of troops to counteract this threat.. He could have nailed the whole British operation with a single phone call and he didn't. It later transpired that he chose not to because he was convinced Germany was losing the war and wanted to shorten it as much as possible to save German lives.

Shortly after that, the same guy cropped up in another article, where it was suggested that, he had on several occasions, kept key information back from the Nazi high command. All of these which led to the war being shortened by some considerable time. The reason the Yanks were so willing to work with him post war was simple. He still had a full network of spies in virtually every country save for England, where virtually every last one had been turned. Apparently, many of the 200+ spies caught and executed by the USSR, because of Burgess, Mclean and Blunt, were his operatives, now working for the CIA, for the simple reason that, they were staunch anti communists, not necessarily Nazis. In effect, the CIA merely took over his operation in Europe. The Yanks and British had virtually no spies in the USSR and here was a whole network of them ready to go from the moment the war ended. It's hardly a great surprise they let him carry on with it, is it?

posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 11:15 PM
reply to post by drew hempel

Yes interesting I have not studied any of this really I have heard a few bits but nothing in detail as you have described.

So where do you think all this came from then??

I do think we have lost a lot over the generation and it is said the children under five have a way better connection than adults. As we seam to lose these abilities as we age.

However we need to get back to the subject despite how all this may indeed be connected. I have seen enough on this thread to agree that what ever hit the desert in 1947 was not Nazis. However it is obvious it was very unusual.

The secret is still in full force for it would seam a very important reason. However I think we will know soon, in fact if we don’t know in the next ten years if not then I think I must be wrong. Simply because the time scale is to long.

posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 11:36 PM
reply to post by FireMoon

O.K. you mean this dude:

Wilhelm Canaris, the head of the Abwehr

Yeah well he either died in a concentration camp or lived in the U.S.

But he didn't set up the CIA -- that was Gehlen. l

Michael Mueller, CANARIS: The Life and Death of Hitler's Spymaster (London: Chatham Publishing, 2007), 388 pp., endnotes, bibliography, photos, index. German journalist Michael Mueller begins his biography of Wilhelm Canaris, head of the Nazi's foreign intelligence service, the Abwehr, by noting that after 60 years and several other biographies, the real Canaris eludes the printed word. One reason for this, he suggests, is the perpetuation of errors accepted as fact. Another is that "the wealth of archival material" that must be examined "is so enormous that little of it has yet been assessed." This book, he admits, "neither answers all the questions, nor resolves all the contradictions." (xv) Quite right he is. Moreover, the book does not correct or even identify previous errors or erroneous impressions. Second, he omits at least one important and well documented operation--the case of Madame Szymanska,12 one of Canaris's voices to the West through MI6 and OSS. And third, Mueller's description of Canaris's life and career--especially his role in the resistance to Hitler that cost him his life--though interesting, adds nothing new. Finally, the mission and structure of the Abwehr, which varies from book to book, is not clarified by Mueller; an appendix on this point would have helped greatly. In sum, the real Canaris still eludes the printed word.

posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 11:48 PM
reply to post by MAC269

Not ten or twenty or hundreds of balloons — from 1951 to 1956, some 350,000 balloons of all types floated over eastern Europe and into Russia, dropping more than 300 million leaflets, posters and books. (Ironically, thousands of balloons aloft coupled with the 1951 release of The Thing and The Day the Earth Stood Still in America, two films that opened with flying saucers landing on earth, resulted in the biggest international UFO “flap” in history.) The liberal press ate it up. Anti-Communists around the world applauded. The angry Soviets protested. PVO Strany tracked the balloons and alerted aircraft batteries and fighter bases. Thousands were shot down just as the 509th Bomb Group and the CIA had anticipated since the top secret tests had begun at Roswell.

Shortly after the occupation began the deputy commander of the US Air Force in Europe, Major-General Hugh Knerr wrote: “Occupation of German scientific and industrial establishments has revealed the fact that we have been alarmingly backward in many fields of research. If we do not take the opportunity to seize the apparatus and the brains that developed it and put the combination back to work promptly, we will remain several years behind while we attempt to cover a field already exploited.”

With its radar-dodging carbon injected plywood skin and swept-back single wing, the 1944 Horten Ho 229 was arguably the first stealth aircraft. This gave way to the later developed B-2 stealth bomber which was effectively a clone of the Horton Ho, produced by Northrop Aviation, now called Northrop Grumman, at a cost of $2 billion. They were given a Horten Ho to work from and almost a generation later produced one of the most versatile and devastating planes ever built.

posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 11:51 PM

In 1992, when The International U.F.O. Museum and Research Center opened in Roswell, New Mexico, only 3,000 aficionados of aliens visited. (As for alien aficionados of the museum, who can say?) Today, the museum is straining at the walls, far too small for the reported 160,000 people who visit it annually. It's become a must-stop for pilgrims to Roswell, site of a -- ahem -- legendary U.F.O crash in 1947.

Extraterrestrials are big business!

posted on Apr, 15 2010 @ 01:22 AM
reply to post by drew hempel

Dear drew hempel

From drew hempel “we will remain several years behind while we attempt to cover a field already exploited”

We are talking several years behind not centuries. However from what I have been seeing for some documentaries of late we do seam to be going ahead in leaps and bounds right now. Death rays lazars “perhaps from Nickola Tesla, perhaps not” Invisibility clocks, robots, etc,

Things do seam to be coming to the boil these days even outside the military.

As for the flying wing I heard it was most unstable and basically un flyable until modern computers came about. As I said before there are reports of what we would call today UFO’s dating back centuries if not millennia.

If Hitler had the capability of the sort of range that would be needed to fly from say Argentina to Roswell and back at the end of WW2 then for sure you would have had New York Bombed. No I am more inclined to believe that the Nazis that ended up in South America at the end of WW2 were running for there lives. They may have had a few U boats and one big aircraft but not nearly enough to accomplish what you suspect.

Anyway this thread is a success at least we have got past that what crashed was a balloon.

posted on Apr, 15 2010 @ 01:56 AM
reply to post by MAC269

This quote you're claiming I made -- I can not find a quote from me that says that nor do I remember writing that -- and can't think why I would write that. So you'll have to find the source for that supposed quote from me.

As far as I know I did not write that. When quoting someone it's best to use the quote as a reply button and then give the actual quote so it links back to the original quote.

Now as for military technology -- and the history of UFOs -- again I highly recommend people watch Michael Schratt's expose -- this is very detailed research.

This new one is an introductory overview but the youtube series of his MUFON lecture is even more detailed. Both complement each other and should both be watched.

That's the thread which gives the other Michael Schratt video links.

[edit on 15-4-2010 by drew hempel]

posted on Apr, 15 2010 @ 02:27 AM
reply to post by drew hempel

Dear drew hempel

Ok it is in the middles section of your last but one reply to me. The last line.

I will have a look at the videos when I get a chance.

I am sure we have ultra top secret aircraft far exceeding the latest stealth craft we know of that is not the point.

Roswell was in July, Kenneth Arnold was in June and Chuck Yeager did not even brake the sound barrier until October 1947. What I am trying to say here is we were just not so advanced at that time in my opinion to fool a cornel that became a 4 star general. The fact is I wonder how he became a general after letting the cat out of the bag they way he did. But never the less he did. The truth was in the first head line.

posted on Apr, 15 2010 @ 06:33 AM

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Either way I am going to use occam's razor which says the simplest solution is usually the correct one.

The simplest solution is always "God did it" or "The devil did it". If people lived by that axiom, we'd still be living in caves.

Occam's razor is usually an excuse for people who have no imagination or are too lazy or too dim to think. No offense intended to you. You at least weighed the possibilities.

posted on Apr, 15 2010 @ 10:56 AM
Truth about Roswell. Here is what happened.
Summer 1945. New Mexico.

The US has secretly exploded an atomic device. Security was at military maximum, because there were German and other spies throughout the US trying to find out about our atomic program. But, there were also holes in the local security net. The day before the test, a local rancher led a herd of cattle onto the property, because we never found him to tell him it might be better to stay away. New Mexico was just 35 years a state, and about as desolate as Mars.

Summer 1947.

The bomb had exploded. We moved ahead to defeat Japan, and then focused our worries on the Communists. Jets were still in trials, and the US had not yet conceived of high altitude U2 flights, much less satellites. The only way to spy on the Soviets was to launch a balloon, put a man in the gondola, and have him take pictures as he floated overhead. How high could a man go? Could he survive such an extreme mission? The test flights were to take place above the deserts of New Mexico.

One day, someone with a problem approached a military base in New Mexico. An Indian family had a very sick child. He was almost two years old, and was horribly deformed. Father and Mother were also very sick, and needed someone to care for their child. Could the US Army help? Probably not, but the base commander dispatched someone to investigate.

And the child was horribly disfigured. Frail, misshapen head, oddly sized and shaped eyes. As the facts were gathered a timeline became clear. This family had been living close to ground zero in 1945, and all suffered the effects of severe radiation poisoning. Nothing could be done. The Army agreed to take the child, knowing the parents would soon die, as would the child.

Then, some overly eager, scrambling-to-the-top lieutenant realized that some benefit could still come from this situation. The child would soon die, but for now, he was still alive. Could we learn about the effects of high altitude on man by placing the child, laden with instrumentation, into the gondola and letting it fly? Intriguing, but if we do, knowledge of this event must be closely guarded, even here in desolate New Mexico. Word of human experiments by German and Japanese scientists had been in the news (but not yet that the Allies retained the Japanese “scientists” to help interpret their experimental data – horrible, but let’s at least learn from it).

The balloon flight occurred. Maybe it was successful. Maybe more Indian families heard of the Army’s willingness to care for incredibly sick children, and brought in their children also. Maybe there were several flights.

Then one night, a balloon was launched in foul weather. It traveled far off course and east toward what civilization there was at that time in New Mexico. A thunderstorm brought the balloon down, and a rancher saw it fall. He came into town later that week to tell the sheriff about it.

The Army had already mobilized and was all over the region. Road blocks. Sirens. Aircraft. Interviews. Knocks at the door. The message was out, strongly, that “you didn’t see anything, and anything you did see you better forget.” The call went out to the local funeral home to bring all the small, child-size coffins they had available. The “debris” was sequestered and flown to an air base in Fort Worth for “study”.

Once the Army’s collective heart rate had slowed down, the approved story about high altitude balloon tests was released, amid disbelief and allegations of an alien cover up. Surprisingly, the balloon story was true. Everything they said was true. It’s what they did not say that was covered up.

posted on Apr, 15 2010 @ 10:56 AM
I was going to say all we need is one person to come forward to admit to what happened, but even that doesnt matter, there has been people and yet still no one listen's.

We might not have physical evidence yet but we have witness support.

The reason the government cannot admit to it even if it wanted to is the fact the all people would lose total trust ( those that still trust i mean )

Even if they wanted to release the truth they are scared too and maybe the truth itself is too scary.

posted on Apr, 15 2010 @ 11:07 AM
I have a question.

Have the original Mogul documents been de-classified?

If the relevant docs have been released then they should match up with Roswell. If the USAF wants us to beleive them that is :p

I mean everything from rec forms for parts for the ballon etc. If Mogul is the true case then is there a paper trail to back it up?
What was the launch date and projected flight path of balloon?

All of this should be on file shouldnt it? Wouldnt it be de-classified by now?

If other projects much more important than Mogul have been de-classified since then Mogul should be easy.

Does anyone know of all supporting docs for Mogul and if they are available?

posted on Apr, 15 2010 @ 11:40 AM
reply to post by Havick007

there were over 700 balloon launches in 1947 from the surrounding air bases. They didnt have any identifiable labels or markings on them until after 1948.

Its difficult to tell precisely which balloon was recovered from the brazel ranch.

[edit on 15-4-2010 by yeti101]

posted on Apr, 15 2010 @ 12:28 PM
reply to post by yeti101

Hmm ok thats fair enough i guess but the Dept of Defence always has paper trails even back then.

The balloon itslef may not have been labelled but there must have been launch records, if it is such a highly classified operation they would have had to have been diligent on certain things. Well you would think so?

Also very convienient that the official statement is that they started recording in higher details 6-12 months after the incident. Even for budget purposes wouldnt they need to keep track of everything they spent on and developed and built?

I'm sure they didnt build 100+ tanks, jeeps and whatever without keeping track of inventory and when and where they went.

Dont ya think?

Also in regard to the said balloons they must have had a system to catalogue them. I mean in order to record the balloons findings they must have each been designated numbers. Otherwise what would you say of this random balloon gives this reading private - record that. U know?

Or would you say Balloon 8818 recording of etc etc.

Does that make sense to you?

[edit on 15-4-2010 by Havick007]

[edit on 15-4-2010 by Havick007]

posted on Apr, 15 2010 @ 12:53 PM

Originally posted by yeti101
reply to post by Havick007

there were over 700 balloon launches in 1947 from the surrounding air bases. They didnt have any identifiable labels or markings on them until after 1948.

Just curious, but do you mean 700 Mogul balloon launches here or perhaps weather balloons?

Or perhaps even a mix?

[edit on 15/4/10 by spacevisitor]

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