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Why Roswell will never be solved: Redfern

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posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 12:47 PM
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ufocon.blogspot.com...

Nick Redfern goes to town on Roswell. This is an amazing analysis!




The reason the Roswell debate is ongoing - despite literally hundreds of people having offered testimony in varying degrees (first-hand, second-hand, third-hand, etc.) is because no-one has thus far delivered the goods. And by the goods, I mean, of course, a body, a body-part, undeniable extraterrestrial wreckage, or undeniable "Roswell UFO Files" that can be proved to have originated with one or more elements of the official world back in the late-1940s.




posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 01:38 PM
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I just read it. Half way in I wanted to come back out and S&F. This guy hits it on the head.

Roswell will become a memory-just like all the other events that have now been forgotten over time.

Anyway, good find. S&F


+4 more 
posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 01:46 PM
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Unless you include whistle-blower documentation such as the MJ12 documents as being evidence in support of what happened - or did not happen - on the Foster Ranch, Lincoln County, New Mexico on the fateful day in early July 1947, the only real data of any significance that we have in-hand comes from the witnesses.


We have more actually.

It is a fact that something crashed there. The military even admits this.
The military, via its own press release, stated it had a recovered disc. That is something right there, in black and white.
The flights of debris to Wright field are a matter of public record.

Then, we have the military's own actions. No prior or later Mogul recovery was done in such a way. Indeed, lost Mogul materials were off-the-shelf materials (only the mission was classified), and were left in the desert to rot. Why did they go through all of this if it was Mogul? We know it was something else.



The reason the Roswell debate is ongoing - despite literally hundreds of people having offered testimony in varying degrees (first-hand, second-hand, third-hand, etc.) is because no-one has thus far delivered the goods. And by the goods, I mean, of course, a body, a body-part, undeniable extraterrestrial wreckage, or undeniable "Roswell UFO Files" that can be proved to have originated with one or more elements of the official world back in the late-1940s.


If a top secret (and unannounced) stealth jet crashed on a farm today, you can bet they'd gather up ever nut and bolt...so no reason they didn't do likewise then, especially with a couple of days to do so, before the press release.



So, by 2025, when the Roswell research community will have likely lost its strongest and only source of quality data - the people and the witnesses - the only way we can ever hope to solve Roswell is by getting access to the bodies, the craft and the documentation - if such even exist.


And this is about as likely as us recovering the pieces of the stealth fighter mentioned above...it won't happen. But, there is another alternative....i.e. the aliens reveal themselves, and tell their side of the story. This is out there, but a possibility nonetheless...



Consider the facts as we know them: the USAF checked, checked and checked again and found no paper-trail on Roswell (aside from a couple of pages, such as the already-known 1-page FBI document of July 1947), as did all of the other agencies approached.


One, there was a HUGE records fire that oddly enough, affected many records for 1947... Two, the docs would have been Army (prior to the Air Force), and likely stuck with the Army folks, and the special group studying the debris.... I think the Air Force is likely just as much in the dark, or at least was, back then, aside from those officers who knew from their Army Air Corps assignments.



Unless the Government decides to release anything of an E.T. nature relative to Roswell, the fact is that we are very close to where Roswell will not be able to be taken any further, and we will be going around in circles; as, in many ways, we are already.


Very true, but there are many amazing coincidences that continue to pop up, the more one looks at what else was happening at the time.



Now, with that all said, could there be an alternative to getting the answer and, ultimately, the proof? Well, the only thing I can remotely think of is if some old man or woman has at their home an Aladdin's Cave of aged and fading documentation that they illegally obtained before the lid clamped down on Roswell, and who are waiting for the right person to present it to.


Not likely. Back when Roswell first resurfaced, you can bet any agency handling it would have immediately checked all the loose ends, especially those having access to physical evidence. However, there is still the possibility of the aliens themselves letting the cat out of the bag (or the government, if alien existence became a fact vs. a theory)....


[edit on 13-4-2010 by Gazrok]



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 01:47 PM
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Those that have the evidence will never release it because releasing it will prove roswell was indeed an ET event. Its a vicious circle of lies being perpetuated for countless decades.

Of course roswell is real! How can it not be? I don't need to see "memory metals" to realise the truth, because hundreds of people have already spoken and are being made to look like fools. Witness testimony by itself has lead people to death row countless times, yet when it comes to ufos and aliens they are never credible?


Thanks for the thread, star&flag



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 02:00 PM
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Here's an interesting graph charting the rise of UFO sightings in July, 1947 from Francis Ridge's report 'Roswell & The Wave of '47 - Too Many Coincidences'.




Chart Illustrating Number of cases daily - June 15th to July 15th.






On the late evening of July 3, 1947, a severe lightning storm raked central New Mexico. During the height of the storm, local ranchers (10-12 miles apart) would later describe hearing a loud explosion that did not sound like the other thunderclaps. Records now show that within hours, UFO sightings began to increase all over the United States.

On July 4th the reports rose sharply and spontaneously, and for five days there was scarcely any part of the United States that had not been visited by these strangely elusive aerial objects. Reports came from many points in Canada as well. The number of sightings crested on July 7th (carefully note that date), and during the next few days reports began to diminish until, about a week later, only a handful were being made from scattered sections of the country.







There's also this intriguing comment about Ted Bloecher's book Report on the UFO Wave of 1947




Ted Bloecher in his book, "The Report on the UFO Wave of 1947", describes newspaper accounts of military pilots being placed on 24-hour alert, and radar operators on 24-hour standby, all looking skyward and hoping that whatever was invading our airspace was not a new threat to our national security that might lead to another war. In most of these (over 1500 incidents) the objects were described as round or disc-shaped. In fact, half of them occurred in broad daylight.



[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 02:15 PM
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O.K. so far in favor of the ETH replies we have

1) the military announced it was a flying saucer

2) it obviously wasn't a mogul balloon since so much effort was taken to move and store the parts

3) After the media covered Roswell the military was put on flying saucer alert and there was a subsequent wave of flying saucer sightings.

None of this goes beyond a military cover-up any more than it supports the ETH position. And a military cover-up is logically much more likely.

Still it's nice to see the true believers come out of the woodwork.

Of course Roswell was aliens -- what else could it be? haha.

Anyone else?



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by drew hempel
 




Why Roswell will never be solved: Redfern


First, let's try and disregard the 'expert' status of anyone when it comes to things like UFOs and other subjects labeled as being paranormal.

We don't have single person we can call an 'expert' in these fields because not a single one of them has all the answers to lift them into a known and fully understood subject.

What we have is people who have played their 'opinions' into the public eye and some popularity.

As for Roswell? Well... who are you to say this or that? Who am I to say anything at all with any foundation that is beyond doubt and debate?

i do indeed believe certain things about what happened in 1947 and I think that my opinion is worthy of my own hold upon it. but beyond that?

Truth... whatever it may be on any subject, is always available and even if it is not generally known now, there is no assurance that someday... tomorrow or in 100 years, that won't change.

Redfern is his own answer just as I am my own. You... like me and him, are equal to the task simply by taking the time to think for yourself and not depending on someone else to do it for you.

That's my dime.

best



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by redoubt
 


Right anything is POSSIBLE. That has definitely been emphasized. I'm all for the infinite potential of reality. It's a beautiful thing. The evidence though as per rational analysis relies on what Redfern reviews. The evidence speaks for itself.

For example hypnotic regression as of late has been a hot plate of fall out on the UFO podcasts -- paratopia and theparacast -- well let's just say paratopia won that round. Hypnotic regression is not considered valid evidence and in fact the so-called "experts" in it for alien abduction hypnotic regression are not experts for that at all!

Still if people want to undergo hypnotic regression -- by all means. We had a ufo mass sighting in my area in 1978 and a lady had a big black triangle fly over her. She had missing time and under hypnotic regression she remembered being abducted.

Was it aliens? Maybe but more likely it was a secret military experiment. And in fact there is lots of evidence for secret military craft. Michael Schratt has done the research:

www.crowdedskies.com...

Still anything is POSSIBLE! Certainly if people focus on channeling the images that are promoted in mass media then they could very well create real aliens!!

www.philipcoppens.com...



One of these was one Philip Corso, allegedly a high-profile member of the US Military, who, at the very end of his life, decided to share his knowledge on the true events surrounding the crash of an extraterrestrial spacecraft near Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947. Rouse had discovered that Corso had ties to the Psychological Warfare department, specifically to its chief, C.D. Jackson. The source of this link was Burton Hersch, in his book The Old Boys: The American Elite and the Origins of the CIA: “On C.D. Jackson’s staff at the Operations Coordinating Board, responsibility for salvaging the guard battalions fell now to the hotspur Colonel Philip Corso – who until 1955 had liased closely with Nelson Rockefeller, for some months Eisenhower’s Special Assistant for Cold War Strategy. Rockefeller’s Open Skies Policy had functioned in large part as an eleventh-hour smoke screen to suffocate the promising disarmament talks of the period.” In short, Corso had been partially responsible for stalling world peace. Other points that Tom Rouse picked up was that “Corso was personally acquainted with Frank Wisner, legendary CIA organizer and operator”, as well as being “personally acquainted with Nelson Rockefeller, who served as director of the Psychological Strategy Board under Eisenhower, replacing C.D. Jackson.” C.D. Jackson was best known for his top executive position at the Time-Life-Fortune magazines, but during World War II, he was deputy chief of the Psychological Warfare Division at S.H.A.E.F. for Eisenhower. Before that, he was deputy chief for the Office of War Information. Rouse added: “C.D. Jackson was among the most powerful psychological warriors of his time. He knew how to organize, on a large scale, mass communications and employ social psychology and survey research to promote ideas and propaganda to influence public opinion and behavior.” In short, C.D. Jackson was also an expert on paradigm shifts… how to fabricate them, and how to defuse them… This was Corso’s boss, friend and apparently mentor. Rouse concluded: “If […] Corso was acquainted with the practitioners of PW at the highest levels, then we might conclude that he had knowledge of basic PW methods and operations. And this is where I speculate: If Corso had sophisticated knowledge of PW methods, how might he have employed them in the publication of his book: The Day After Roswell? Is it possible that the book could have been some kind of eleventh-hour smokescreen?”



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by drew hempel
None of this goes beyond a military cover-up any more than it supports the ETH position. And a military cover-up is logically much more likely.


The question is what the military was covering up ?

The retired Brigadier General Thomas DuBose, former chief of staff to 8th Air Force General Ramey who was above Roswell in the chain of command, said he personally received the call from Clements McMullen in Washington DC, to initiate a cover story to get the press of their backs.

Mogul balloon is obviously disinformation. The facts don't fit.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by drew hempel
3) After the media covered Roswell the military was put on flying saucer alert and there was a subsequent wave of flying saucer sightings.



Drew, did you click on the link to the Ebook?

There are quite a few very puzzling reports in that year before the Roswell incident and it's well worth a look.





Originally posted by drew hempel
Still it's nice to see the true believers come out of the woodwork.



'True Believers'?

People take the time to respond to your thread and you post that?



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by drew hempel
Was it aliens? Maybe but more likely it was a secret military experiment. And in fact there is lots of evidence for secret military craft. Michael Schratt has done the research:

www.crowdedskies.com...


Secret military experiments is the second most used excuse after 1)swamp gas or is it 1)secret military experiments and 2)swamp gas?

Either way I am going to use occam's razor which says the simplest solution is usually the correct one. If we add all the eye-witness testimonies and the extent to which the government went to cover-up everything, I would say an ET event most likely occured.

Off course its just my opinion and "anything is possible"....blah, blah, blah



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 03:04 PM
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None of this goes beyond a military cover-up any more than it supports the ETH position. And a military cover-up is logically much more likely.


And your supposition is that the military project being covered up still needs to be classified over half a century later?

So, we're left with this (supporting an ETH position)...

1. The testimony of high-ranking officers stating the recovery of otherworldly debris.
2. The official announcement of a recovered disc.
3. Flights of the debris to Air Materiel Command and Foreign Technology bases. (i.e. it wasn't OURS)...
4. The military story of Mogul and High Dive used as a coverup, and a needed explanation for alien "bodies", even though High Dive was 5 years after the event.
5. The rush to reorganize the Defense Department (National Security Act)
6. Alleged documents that spell out a timeline for the US response to the recovery, that name the individuals studying the phenomenon.
7. Right from the get-go, this was an ET event...

Is this all rock solid? No.
But not exactly the "leap of faith" you imply either...

I went into the Roswell case fully expecting to prove the Mogul explanation actually. Just that the evidence didn't fit it, and led in another direction.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by Gazrok]



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 03:08 PM
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reply to post by Gazrok
 


Ha! I SAW a big black triangle craft UP CLOSE -- yes this technology is still classified!

I'm downloading the book now and I got the latest paracast episode playing on Mac Tonnies Cryptoterrestials book

www.ufomystic.com...

www.ufomystic.com...



First, when Mac told me about his project a couple of years ago, he mentioned that he would be addressing Roswell in its pages – not from the perspective of the reported recovered craft and bodies having extraterrestrial origins, but from a specifically cryptoterrestrial approach.


www.theparacast.com...

Anything is possible! haha.

Now who is going to watch that Michael Schratt expose documentation on military secret craft?




[edit on 13-4-2010 by drew hempel]

[edit on 13-4-2010 by drew hempel]



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by karl 12
 


O.K. I got to this point in the book and totally disagree! This ATS thread provides more than enough evidence for mass popular culture concepts of flying saucers as aliens before 1947:

www.abovetopsecret.com...



The 1947 UFO wave is perhaps the most fascinating of any to examine because of its unique position at the very beginning of the contemporary period of UFO activity in this country. There were no "attitudes" about UFOs in June1947. There were no preconceptions, no misconceptions, no "policies" by either press or public, or by any official agencies, and certainly no pattern existed concerphenomenon by which comparisons might be made. Few people recalled tof "ghost rockets" over Sweden during the summer of 1946, and it was only during the crest of the 1947 wave, on July 6th and 7th, that any connection was made wthose earlier phenomena.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by drew hempel
 


There is a paperwork trail that takes the debris from Roswell to Wright Patterson AAF. Why would they do that with regular debris from the balloon or even the Project Mogul debris? The materials were not classified at all, and would of been part of the regular supply system. The problem with debunkers, is they do not look outside the box and at all the little pieces of the puzzle laid out for them. They want the meat and potatoes and that is it.

Another thing is why would all of those flag officers have been notified over a little balloon crash? It would of been up to the DCM to take care of the debris and he was usually a colonel. Having been in the military, I do know how some things work. When something is done that does not make sense, I start to ask questions.

There are many good researchers out there who have been working and getting the documents out there that this was an extraterrestrial crash.

As EarthCitizen07 has stated, there is plenty of people who were sent to death row on eyewitness testimony itself. In the case of Roswell, we actually do have debris that was acknowledged, and a disk that was picked up. Put in the paper trail of documents out there, and we have a good idea of what happened.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by karl 12

Originally posted by drew hempel
Still it's nice to see the true believers come out of the woodwork.



'True Believers'?

People take the time to respond to your thread and you post that?


In retro-spect I feel cheated giving drew hempel's thread a star&flag because apparently his intentions were less than honest to begin with!



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 03:30 PM
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reply to post by kidflash2008
 


Yep, the good ol' "cover up".

All the evidence is six levels "DOWN" below Wright Patterson AFB and that's where it's stayin'.

See my signature below..............nuff said



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by Gazrok

None of this goes beyond a military cover-up any more than it supports the ETH position. And a military cover-up is logically much more likely.


And your supposition is that the military project being covered up still needs to be classified over half a century later?



Yes the military technology still needs to be classified as Michael Schratt details:

www.crowdedskies.com...



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 03:33 PM
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reply to post by downunderET
 


Having no evidence is not evidence of a cover-up! haha.

There's tons of evidence of SECRET MILITARY CRAFT -- as for it being "foreign" -- that means Japanese-German-Soviet, etc.

There's also evidence of the military specifically promoting ETH as the cover-up.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by downunderET
 


Actually, if you follow the story it was moved a long time ago. And it does turn out that Wright Patterson has an underground area that would be perfect for storing secret items.

The disk technology the air force worked on was shown to be unstable in the 1950s. They would of released that they had a flying disk to the public as that shape is not classified. We see the stealth aircraft all the time and do not know what materials they use to coat them with. So the secret aircraft theory does not hold water at all.



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