Why Roswell will never be solved: Redfern

Originally posted by Shadowhawk
These are just a few examples of actual, documented government crash retrieval operations. There are many others but the ultimate lesson is always the same. Unless the site has been paved over, there should be something left.

It appears in the most sensitive (genuine?) UFO crashes, the area is paved over literally and figuratively. In Above Top Secret, there was a crash site in Cave Creek AZ and after the UFO was recovered, they permanently diverted the road to go around the site. For months afterwards, heavy machinery churned up the ground, seemingly without purpose.

I think as part of the typical black ops recovery sites, they search the area, but they don't worry about every molecule of debris like suspected UFO crashes such as Roswell. The documented flights of debris to Wright Patterson, among other things, leads me to conclude it was not a mundane incident like a balloon.

A "typical black ops recovery" would be precisely identical to a UFO crash retrieval. There is only one way to interpret the order to "clean up every trace." It would make no sense whatsoever to treat the crash of a Top Secret stealth aircraft - an unacknowledged "black" project - any differently than that of an unknown (or known to be extraterrestrial) craft.

reply to post by MAC269


Oh that was a quote of someone else -- anyway yeah the big thing is the interivews with Joseph P. Farrell about his Roswell and the Reich book -- there's two interviews I've posted.

No one yet has commented on the Joseph P. Farrell interviews. Farrell emphasizes that Dr. Kurt Debus was working on the Nazi Bell propulsion research and then was working with von Braun at NASA when the Nazis were brought to Roswell as well. Here's a slightly earlier interview where he mentions the Reich-Roswell connection:

projectcamelot.org...

So I think this relationship goes back to Nazi Germany because I do know that Debus was also part of von Braun’s team at Peenemünde. And what he was doing for von Braun there was, he was constructing the measuring equipment for these stationary rocket test gantries that the Nazis had built there. But he’s also got this connection to the Bell. Now this is why I find this question interesting, because if you go into the Cooper-Cantwell documents (MAJIC 12 documents)—and I’m not arguing for or against their authenticity; I’m saying I’m looking only at the internal evidence of the documents themselves—they kind of corroborate this picture because what they suggest is that these Nazi Paperclip rocket scientists were brought in to look at this Roswell wreckage. And the first question that occurs to my mind: Well, why bring in Nazi scientists if you suspect this is ET? You’re gonna want to keep that as classified as possible from your former enemy, okay? But you bring ’em in because it looks German. And von Braun... Okay? You’ve got von Braun and Arthur Rudolph and all these Nazi scientists looking at this stuff and they come up with this explanation of what this is. It’s some sort of Neutronic engine with fusion that’s taking place, and so on and so forth. And that tells me that if that’s true, then somebody—if it’s disinformation—somebody knows that Debus and von Braun communicated something way back in Nazi Germany and that von Braun knew enough about this other secret project to be able to say that to his American interrogators.

reply to post by drew hempel


Dear drew hempel

I finally got to view your video projectcamelot.org... thanks for that.

Sorry to follow the plot of Joseph P. Farrell means just about rewriting the history of WW2 with Hitler having nuclear weapons etc,. With just about the only evidence to that being that over 20,000,000 Russians died and perhaps even more than that.

No sorry it just doesn’t work for me on a totally logical basis, simply because if that had been the case D Day would never have happened the US forces would have been wiped of the face of the UK.

Nice idea and all the rest but no there may indeed be something to the banking ideas but nothing more.

Again because if these people had really had this technology we would sure have know about it long before now.

reply to post by MAC269


Well he's arguing that there was uranium isotope enrichment which is well documented but there was lack of heavy water to make a real bomb -- so there was some sort of "fuel-air bomb" which was similar to a nuclear bomb:

www.scribd.com...

He's got a photo in this book of William Lyne's discovery of a German secret magnetic compass device that Lyne bought at a second-hand store in White Sands New Mexico!!



[edit on 16-4-2010 by drew hempel]

[edit on 16-4-2010 by drew hempel]

[edit on 16-4-2010 by drew hempel]

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by redoubt

 

Still anything is POSSIBLE! Certainly if people focus on channeling the images that are promoted in mass media then they could very well create real aliens!!

www.philipcoppens.com...

One of these was one Philip Corso, allegedly a high-profile member of the US Military, who, at the very end of his life, decided to share his knowledge on the true events surrounding the crash of an extraterrestrial spacecraft near Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947. Rouse had discovered that Corso had ties to the Psychological Warfare department, specifically to its chief, C.D. Jackson. The source of this link was Burton Hersch, in his book The Old Boys: The American Elite and the Origins of the CIA: “On C.D. Jackson’s staff at the Operations Coordinating Board, responsibility for salvaging the guard battalions fell now to the hotspur Colonel Philip Corso – who until 1955 had liased closely with Nelson Rockefeller, for some months Eisenhower’s Special Assistant for Cold War Strategy. Rockefeller’s Open Skies Policy had functioned in large part as an eleventh-hour smoke screen to suffocate the promising disarmament talks of the period.” In short, Corso had been partially responsible for stalling world peace. Other points that Tom Rouse picked up was that “Corso was personally acquainted with Frank Wisner, legendary CIA organizer and operator”, as well as being “personally acquainted with Nelson Rockefeller, who served as director of the Psychological Strategy Board under Eisenhower, replacing C.D. Jackson.” C.D. Jackson was best known for his top executive position at the Time-Life-Fortune magazines, but during World War II, he was deputy chief of the Psychological Warfare Division at S.H.A.E.F. for Eisenhower. Before that, he was deputy chief for the Office of War Information. Rouse added: “C.D. Jackson was among the most powerful psychological warriors of his time. He knew how to organize, on a large scale, mass communications and employ social psychology and survey research to promote ideas and propaganda to influence public opinion and behavior.” In short, C.D. Jackson was also an expert on paradigm shifts… how to fabricate them, and how to defuse them… This was Corso’s boss, friend and apparently mentor. Rouse concluded: “If […] Corso was acquainted with the practitioners of PW at the highest levels, then we might conclude that he had knowledge of basic PW methods and operations. And this is where I speculate: If Corso had sophisticated knowledge of PW methods, how might he have employed them in the publication of his book: The Day After Roswell? Is it possible that the book could have been some kind of eleventh-hour smokescreen?”

Corso knew C.D. Jackson?

Well, I be damned.

Had already stopped considering Corso to be a reliable witness but for other reasons. This changes the whole terrain as to what his actual role in the continued story of Roswell might have been. Disinfo agent?

C.D. Jackson, head of Psyche Warfare during WWII, sure was an expert at "paradigm shifts" and influencing public opinion and behavior. This denial video on Buchenwald, starting around Part 7 I think, shows C.D. Jackson in action, doing his part in creating the Holocaust myth (Part 1 of 22):
www.youtube.com...

[edit on 16-4-2010 by Tussilago]

reply to post by Tussilago


Finally someone actually read the expose on Corso as disinfo CIA asset.

Roswell and the Reich is the answer.

reply to post by drew hempel


Dear drew hempel

As far as I know Naparm is a fuel air bomb, and very nasty it is too.

However to describe it as being equivalent to a tactical nuclear weapon is over stretching some what. Not much more than an over sized fire bomb. Like Greek Fire and who knows how old that is. As far as the nuclear research is concerned apparently at the end of the war it was considered that the Nazis were way behind what the allies had expected.

I would give you the Nazis Roswell connection from South America if there where any other evidence of exotic technology coming from there in the last 63 years. As far as I know there is not.

I would give you the Nazis Roswell connection from paperclip which I would certainly think much more likely if they had been looking for it after it had turned up missing. It certainly would have made a big reason for a cover up at that time.

However there is absolutely nothing to suggest that they where looking for any lost craft. They would have been on to every base even down to ever sheriffs office in the possible area. It seams this hit the ground totally out of the blue so to speak.

reply to post by MAC269


Have you watched the Michael Schratt vids yet?

It's called "compartmentalization."

reply to post by drew hempel


Dear drew hempel

No I have not if you send me a link I will




[edit on 17-4-2010 by MAC269]

reply to post by MAC269


www.crowdedskies.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I've given the first link twice already in this thread and the 2nd link is another thread I did just on Michael Schratt. Also I'm pretty sure he's posted in this thread as well a couple times. haha.

So I would first watch the Project Camelot vid and then watch the MUFON lecture....

reply to post by drew hempel


Dear drew hempel

I can not get the video on www.crowdedskies.com... It is just not working for some reason.

However I watched this video (Michael Schratt on Black Projects (Video)) with interest. Indeed lots of interesting stuff however I can not see how it promotes your reasoning that Roswell was something to do with the Nazis. In it there was a lot of exotic aircraft mentioned that indeed could be the basis for many a UFO sighting. However I think the earliest mentioned was around 1967 being the flying discs.

Now sure I am with you on all we see is not all we have got. That is for sure a given. However there is no suggestion of Nazis involvement and no suggestion of flying craft the size of aircraft carriers such as have been seen by airline pilots and other first class witness’s.

reply to post by MAC269


www.ustream.tv...

He discloses some pretty crazy stuff, had me on the edge of my seat a few times. I found another interview he did with Open Minds Radio where they get into some more UFO related areas, including Nazi UFOS/The Bell, WW2 foo fighters, etc.

FYI during the interview everything works fine until around the 10min mark, then their audio board dies, but he gets a new one working and if you skip to 21min, the audio comes back.

"we should not underestimate what was made under ss hans kammler ... they got a truck load full of antigravity technology.... Hans Kammler was intimately involved in the Bell...."

"strange hieroglyphic writings around the circumference of the Bell....."

LIKE ROSWELL

Those are approximate quotes -- he talks fast --

62 engineers were murdered... concentration camp workers gave testimony.... about the Bell.....

SS Hans Kammler was the key -- yet we still don't know what happened to him....

We believe he cut a deal with the Americans London Daily Mail Aug 12 2001 -- Hans Kammler's historical account on record by Nick Cook....

"maybe it's a physical torsion pinch equation showing you how the vehicle starts up"..... re: the hieroglyphs. It's kind of like a check list.... maybe that was the visual check list....

Wright Patterson took the Kecksburg 1965 Bell craft crash -- with hieroglyphs....

just like they took ROSWELL....

"mr. H. Fleischner" -- Patent for sucking in boundary area for take off -- patent 1955 German engineer....

Laser guided bombs, t.v. guided -- it's all from the Nazis....

"reports of spherical objects coming up from the bowels of Berlin following B29s and B17s and then breaking away... also reports of electromagnetic disturbances interacting with the piston engine turbines....

"By the end of 1944 we had bombed the oil ... so they needed a VTOL option which could be used as a rapid response....

"I believe... they did have the technology to short out the electrical systems.... it goes into the Kubilick Devices...electrogravitic effects.

"June 24 1047 -- Many saw a crescent wing like the Horton -- just before Roswell...."

"What Kenneth Arnold saw was a... similar to the Avro Project Y... looks identical to what Kenneth Arnold reported -- this is identical to the Third Reich.... it really is, it really is."

"Let's be clear we've got circular, delta, manta, cigar.... Just consider Hudson Valley....

"What's interesting here -- it had transculent panels on the bottom, multiple lighting configurations on the belly of the craft, and the cross I-beams..."

"What would you need translucent panels? Because of VTOL... It looks like man made technology. I don't think Hudson was extraterrestrial but was from McDonnell Douglas 1967...."

When Michael Schratt relies on William Moore to talk about "project snowbird" -- maybe Schratt doesn't realize that Moore works with Doty -- both using military disinformation!!

Read Project Beta by Greg Bishop.

software.techrepublic.com.com...

"Before long Moore -- then a new force in civilian UFO research -- was tapped by a group of intelligence agents and a deal was struck: Moore was to keep tabs on Bennewitz while the Air Force ran a psychological profile and disinformation campaign on the unsuspecting physicist."

[edit on 17-4-2010 by drew hempel]

[edit on 17-4-2010 by drew hempel]

[edit on 17-4-2010 by drew hempel]

Drew..

It's just a classic case of cherry picking certain ideas and then extrapolating, based on a person's own particular bias. At no point does any of your chosen evidence even attempt to explain how. Foo fighters were present over vast tracks of water in the Pacific theatre,. They just choose to completely ignore that whole aspect to the phenomenon because it totally shoots down their claims.

And for what? To run around the sky doing, apparently nothing at all in any constructive manner at all. They freaked their Axis pilots out, as much as they had the Allies wondering.

If you check one of the ongoing research threads. I spent a good few hours working through the reports of every Allied plane, recorded as being shot down over Denmark. Nowhere, could i find reference to the supposed, British Spitfire, downed by a Foo fighter over that country. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but there is no documentary evidence, i can find, to support it.

There isn't a single shred of evidence offered by the people you hold so much store in, to show that the Germans had anything like an integrated circuit or a transistor.. Without those you have absolutely nothing. Because without those, there is no way in the world that those experiments had any practical and transportable application.

What's more, had they had such technology, America was a capitalist society, you think for one second they would have stayed secret for over a decade? Not a chance in hell. Those inventions meant billions of dollars and every year they were kept secret they ran, the very likely risk that. The same thing would be invented and patented by science in another country. There is no way in the world the Americans would ever allow that to happen.

The how do you explain that, in reality the Americans were years behind the British and French in terms of aircraft development by the opening of the 1960s? The Americans had nothing at all , to compare to the TSR2. It's the 21st century and NO American firm has ever produced a super sonic airliner. Yet, you would have us believe, stashed away, theses Nazi scientists were working on projects that were incredibly advanced.

Why, when the patents for integrated circuits and transistors were presented, were they granted, if the Nazis already had designed them? The CIA had umpteen cover companies for registering such patents.

The Allies used napalm, your air burst weapon on Iwo Jima in World War 11, so how did Nazi science have anything to do with that when, the campaign started and ended before the Nazis had even capitulated?

There was, according to some, a whole *occult* side to WW11. The Brits knew about Himmler and the whole * Thule* thing. Don't think for one minute they didn't seek to exploit that. You want to go the esoteric route, ponder why the *engine that won the war* was called a Merlin.

The Nazis have simple become a huge repository for authors to hang a good yarn from and make a few bucks from. Don't understand something? Oh, it must be secret Nazi science. It's fascinating to see how Nazi science has suddenly come to the fore, ever since, the Philadelphia experiment was , pretty much, busted as nothing more than a good yarn. All that has happened is that, people have simply shifted the focus of their sensationalist ideas to the Nazis. Why? Well could it be because we don't have to do such things as, provide a single written piece of evidence, it makes it that much easier to write an y old cobblers you fancy and then just say. "Oh it's secret". ?

It's also interesting to note that. The whole Nazi science thing has gained popularity as more and more evidence of weird stuff in our skies has stacked up. The days of simply laughing at people who see UFOs has gone. There have been just too many sightings, by too many excellent witnesses, to just dismiss it as it once was. So hey, let's dig up the Nazis, they were weird. let's project all this high weirdness in our skies on them.

It's simple really. if the Nazis really did have the capabilities these people claim. I'd have been using the world wide web to do my homework, in the 1970s. and the moon landings would have been in the 1950s. Why, because the capabilities the Nazi are imbued with by these people, means they must have invented integrated circuits and transistors. The guess who actually invented the concept them? Oh yes, a British radar scientist, Geoffrey W A Dummer in the one country that truly understood why they were needed because that country had invented Pulse Code Modulation and built the worlds first working computer. Yes, Werner Jacobi, working for Siemens, i believe, had come up with a similar concept, in 1949, so why wasn't he secreted away, on some base in the desert working on these *black projects*, instead of designing hearing aids?

The transistor was invented at the Bell labs in 1947, by John Bardeen and Walter Brattain, it wasn't some big secret at all. Surely, if they were already using these devices, to preserve their secrecy, they would have sat on these discoveries?

The truth is, we have aircraft that can fly,, but aren't integrally aerodynamic shapes because of communications technology. Not we have the world wide web, because someone built some secret aircraft and let a few little titbits out to keep the public happy. That's the gaping hole in the whole Nazi science and UFOs theory. in the key areas you would need to build such craft, they were years behind both the UK and America.

The idea of some craft, pulling 20g turns, stopping dead and turning 90 degrees, in a split second, using valve technology, is about as likely as the Easter Bunny showing up. Yet, that's exactly what these people are trying to sell, you the concept of.

[edit on 17-4-2010 by FireMoon]

Originally posted by FireMoon
Drew..

It's just a classic case of cherry picking certain ideas and then extrapolating, based on a person's own particular bias. At no point does any of your chosen evidence even attempt to explain how. Foo fighters were present over vast tracks of water in the Pacific theatre,. They just choose to completely ignore that whole aspect to the phenomenon because it totally shoots down their claims.

www.theufochronicles.com...

Here's specific evidence that the Foo Fighters were Nazi -- do you have specific evidence that they were not Nazi?

www.thewebfairy.com...

The device was powered by special flat, circular a turbojet engine. After being guided to the proximity of the target from the ground, an automatic infra-red tracking device took over control. The circular spinning turbojet exhaust created a visual effect of a bright, fiery ball in the nighttime sky. Within the craft itself a klystron tube pulsated at the frequency of Allied radar making it almost invisible to those remote eyes. A thin sheet of aluminum encircled the device immediately under the layer of protective armor but was electrically insulated from the armor. Once a bullet pierced the armor and the thin aluminum sheet, a circuit was formed which had the effect of triggering the Feuerball to climb out of danger at full speed (2).

And for what? To run around the sky doing, apparently nothing at all in any constructive manner at all. They freaked their Axis pilots out, as much as they had the Allies wondering.

The purpose was to disrupt the electrical systems of the planes -- as I quoted Michael Schratt

www.thewebfairy.com...

Phoo bombs were described as "radio-controlled, jet-propelled, still-nosed, short-range, high performance ramming weapons for use against bombing formations". Speed was estimated at 525 miles per hour.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you check one of the ongoing research threads. I spent a good few hours working through the reports of every Allied plane, recorded as being shot down over Denmark. Nowhere, could i find reference to the supposed, British Spitfire, downed by a Foo fighter over that country. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but there is no documentary evidence, i can find, to support it.

Again the purpose of the foo fighter was to disrupt the plane's electrical systems --

www.sacred-texts.com...

The foo-fighters seen by American pilots were only a minor demonstration, a fraction of a vast variety of methods used to confuse radar and interrupt electro magnetic currents.

There isn't a single shred of evidence offered by the people you hold so much store in, to show that the Germans had anything like an integrated circuit or a transistor.. Without those you have absolutely nothing. Because without those, there is no way in the world that those experiments had any practical and transportable application.

Once again, only recently has the German perspective on "Foo Fighters" been verified by a February 1945 report called "An Evaluation of German Capabilities in 1945." This report, among other things, lists a German "phoo bomb" as well as atom bombs. Miniaturized klystron tubes, as well as German advances in silicon and germanium crystals, two elements essential in the making of semiconductors which in turn are the basis of the transistor, were actually under development as well.7 Most of this research was burned by the Germans in the face of the Allied advance into the Reich, and the rest fell into American hands. 6 Vesco and Childress, op. cit., pp. 212-213. 7 Henry Stevens, Hitler's Flying Saucers: A Guide to German Flying Disks of the Second World War, p. 75.

forums.skadi.net...

This aside, I have spoken with J. Andreas Epp by telephone and corresponded with him. He saw and took pictures of a German disc in flight. They are in his book, Die Realitaete der Deutchen Flugscheiben. Epp says this was the Otto Habermohl model. Schriever's disc never flew beyond perhaps a couple hops off the ground. Both the Habermohl model and the Miethe model flew well. Well means 1300 mph and 60,000 feet----no this is not a misprint. This program was originally run by the German Air Force, later taken over by the SS. Georg Klein oversaw this program for both organizations and was involved in making the final decision as to which saucer to manufacture--along with Dr. Ing. Hans Kammler. Kammler, according to a newspaper interview by Klein after the war, picked the Habermohl model which was easier and cheaper to build. Klein says he saw the Habermohl model fly in 1944. Besides this, I found a witness, now living in Canada,k who saw the liftoff from a school room window as a child. Besides Schriever, Habermohl and Miethe, there was a Feuerball (foo fighter) program. I have (finally) forced the US goverment to come clean about this and they have provided a 1944 Defence Intelligence Briefing stating that "Phoo Bombs" as they called them, where German circular turbojet devices which could be expected to challenge Allied air power in 1945. Further, the Germans experimented with field propulsion vehicles during the war and according to one F.B.I. report, also obtained via Freedom of Information, the craft was huge and lifted of silently, stopping motorized vehicles. This report was from a Pole doing agricultural work in the area who saw the saucer and later immigrated to the USA. Heinreich Fleissner, mentioned at the German web-site, was granted a patent for a flying saucer in 1965. It took ten years because the US goverment was working on it also. Fleissner was a hydrolic engineer at Peenemuende and a consultant on the German saucer program. He says in a German magazine article that as Berlin fell, four German flying discs left Tempelhof Airport. Believe me, there are a million stories and lots of proof. This web-site is only a drop in the bucket. There is no doubt, there is a 100% certainty that the Germans built and flew things we today would call flying saucers.

In Swedish, I only have one but it is a good one. It is a newspaper story from Aftonbladet, dated 10/10/52, titled: "Flygande tefat var Hitlers A 7-vapen". (Flying Saucer was Hitler's A-7 Weapon). This was a very embarassing story for the US authorities at the time since it described Dr. Werner von Braun's involvement in this project. Dr. von Braun was then working in the USA and had publicly denied involvement in the German saucer projects. The saucer descirbed in Aftonbladet lifted off in April, 1944 and was six meters in diameter. It described the Reich's future saucer plans in detail and diagrams and tells us that this future model was designed to fly at an altitude of 100 kilometers and would have been atomic powered.

[edit on 17-4-2010 by drew hempel]

[edit on 17-4-2010 by drew hempel]

[edit on 17-4-2010 by drew hempel]

[edit on 18-4-2010 by drew hempel]

[edit on 18-4-2010 by drew hempel]

"Here's specific evidence that the Foo Fighters were Nazi -- do you have specific evidence that they were not Nazi? "

Yes can you actually read? They appeared over the Pacific, over vast empty tracks of water? How the chuff did they get there from Germany?

A nighttime sighting from September, 1941 in the Indian Ocean was similar to some later Foo Fighter reports. From the deck of the S.S. Pulaski, (a Polish merchant vessel transporting British troops), two sailors reported a "strange globe glowing with greenish light, about half the size of the full moon as it appears to us." (Clark, 230) They alerted a British officer, who watched the object's movements with them for over an hour.

On February 28, 1942, just prior to its participation in the Battle of the Java Sea, the USS Houston reportedly saw a large number of strange, unexplained yellow flares and lights which illuminated the sea for miles around.

A report was made from the Solomon Islands in 1942 by United States Marine Corp Stephen J. Brickner. Following an air raid alarm, Brickner and others witnessed about 150 objects grouped in lines of 10 or 12 objects each. Seeming to "wobble" as they moved, Brickner reported that the objects resembled polished silver and seemed to move a little faster than common Japanese aircraft.


All of which evidence your sources conveniently forget to mention. Or how about the sighting by a British diplomat of a *classic UFO* over China in 1941?

Once again, only recently has the German perspective on "Foo Fighters" been verified by a February 1945 report called This report, among other things, lists a German "phoo bomb" as well as atom bombs. Miniaturized klystron tubes, as well as German advances in silicon and germanium crystals, two elements essential in the making of semiconductors which in turn are the basis of the transistor, were actually under development as well.7 Most of this research was burned by the Germans in the face of the Allied advance into the Reich, and the rest fell into American hands. 6 Vesco and Childress, op. cit., pp. 212-213. 7 Henry Stevens, Hitler's Flying Saucers: A Guide to German Flying Disks of the Second World War, p. 75.

A report that conveniently, has no reference save those provided by someone who claims Nazis made UFOs. It's no chuffin different to Bob Lazar. Just because a load of web sites quote from a report that doesn't actually seem to be available, doesn't make it a fact.

[edit on 18-4-2010 by FireMoon]

reply to post by FireMoon


Similar yes but not Foo bombs -- nice try:

www.thewebfairy.com...

U.S. government's own documents prove they knew of the German origin of foo fighters. This table of contents of a "Intelligence Digest" document, with a February, 1945 date, addresses German military capacities. It lists "Phoo Bombs" as a weapon in the German arsenal (see VI- OtherWeapons) Taken from microfilm negative image.

reply to post by FireMoon








[edit on 18-4-2010 by drew hempel]

reply to post by drew hempel


Dear drew hempel

I found this one interesting and for sure it furthers you speculation about the Nazis involvement www.thewebfairy.com... If correct naturally.

However do you have any reports from aircraft crew of an attack by a foo fighter??

I ask this because I have never heard of any. So if there is none what would the point be to such a device, from the Nazis point of view.


[edit on 18-4-2010 by MAC269]